The plane Keith White( gasdaysaregone ) is refering to often got passed up by trainers but a guy that flew it told me it did fly good but only in a dive would it pass up anything.

kick... kick...cry... kick.....

I have not been on here in a long time. I think much of the infighting in forums as it seems to be a good place for mudslinging and little else. BUT>>> I am border line ready to give up my AMA and I tell you why. Not because of anything Dave Brown or AMA has done. I think they work hard at doing their job and they do what they see is right. I see a lot of people not just disagree but are ready to lynch them and I think the whole thing is childish. People in charge will always make decisions and people who don't have a grasp of what is going on will always complain.

I have not been to the field all summer. I fly electric's in my back yard. I have a garage full of medium to large scale airplanes. I took a few glow/gas airplanes out this past weekend and soon realized why it has been a while since I had been back. The R/C hobby has changed over the years and it has nothing to do with Dave Brown.

1. The number one reason is you cannot fly a traffic pattern anymore. Everyone wants to hover their electric's or profile airplanes at the end of the runway and has turned the field into a helicopter field. People complain and nothing changes.

2. I walk the field and there were 30+ airplanes this weekend at the field. Out of the 30 airplanes there was ONE nice one. The rest were junk. Foam, corrugated cardboard, etc. There is no pride in the hobby. We have a 400ft concrete runway, nice facilities, electricity, pop machine, pay people to mow and the people bring junk to fly.

3. There is always one guy with a Diamond Dust trying to show you haw fast he can fly the flight line and how quick he can turn. We were hiding behind the trash cans.

It will be another year before I go back! If I go back!

GW
Evansville, IN

GW... I understand your perspective... From my point of view, I envy you, as, our club can only muster up no more than 8 - 10 flyers at a time (this was our max over the summer). In a way it's nice to have all the space you want, but in another way, it sucks, because a club is supposed to be a club.

One other view is that us younger guys don't exactly have the time to build. ARF's are convenient. I've been building a 80 inch Wendell Hostetler Extra now for a year, and I'll be lucky to get it finished by this coming spring. I have kids and a wife, and a very demanding job. That's just how things are these days. I worry about trashing out one of my planes because I don't really have the time to set another one up, and I know there's pleanty of "me" out there these days.

Keep your chin up, and fly those gassers! Show those younger guys YOUR pride and joy, and better still, go to a meeting and bring it to the officers that 3D'ing is OK, but that it should be done in a designated area or specific time.

Good luck...

You know MPB I don't really blame them if that is what they want, it's just not what I care for. Years ago you would go through a model airplane field and people had pride in what they did and how they flew. Now, well, if people can fly a trash can lid they will try to show everyone how they can hover it right in the middle of the runway. If that's what they want, fine I didn't sign up for that.

Don't get me wrong I am not mad. If that's what the majority want then I am not part of the majority. Electrics, profiles and ARF's have made this hobby take off and some of this I fly in my backyard but I would never show up at the field with it. It just feels like "TOY DAY" at the R/C club.

Has it ever occurred to any of you, "Younger", guys, that we were all young once upon a time. In that once upon a time, there were no ARF's nor were there any electrics (the Stanzell plane on a cable doesn't count), and we made/found the time to build. I had a wife, kids, a demanding job, but I still made it happen. I still have a wife, kids (now Grandkids) and a more demanding job, but guess what...I still find time to build. That's just how thing are these days. Try running an automobile dealership (70 hours per week) and dealing with the honey-do's, and the Grandpa-do's, and still fing a few minutes to wedge in the hobby activities, and then come and tell me about not having any time. You have the same amount of time in any day as does anyone else. It's what you choose to do with it that matters. Have fun.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

I read thru this post and find it interesting . I will probably upset so many people with this statement but the ama is not growing because modelers are so judgemental of each other that many newbee are not made to feel welcome . Look around on this site , here is some examples
1)arf guys vs builders
2)warbird guys vs scale warbirds guys
3)fast prop jet guys vs regular prop planes
4)thick tail airfoil guys vs flat tail , yes funny but true
5)disposable income vs non disposable income ect ect ect .
6)american made vs imports
I love the hobby , have a tendency to see all views just to enjoy it and get along , but dont blame the ama , look at the field and you will see what I mean . We turn modeling pride into snobbery and anti socialisum
I am lucky , I now fly alone with my kids , I no longer go to the club and advoid the club scene for a few more years until my kids will grow and move on or the area will develope beyond the space so I can no longer fly .
Unfortunitly that is one of the biggest problems in this hobby , plenty of great people but many walls are in place

LDM

An excellent post. However, there are many more walls than you listed - which I'm sure you know. There are Free Flight vs RC vs UC. There are sport fliers vs competitors. There are club people vs non-club people. There are park fliers vs non-park fliers. There are scratch builders vs plan builders vs kit builders vs ARFs. And it goes on and on. Everyone seems to want to knock everyone else.

I've been in various aspects of this hobby for over 55 years and I enjoy it a lot. But, all these conflicts sure take a lot away.

Paul

Thanks Paul , I could not agree more , its a shame we cant be one brotherhood of people just enjoying the hobby , then and only then will you see tremendous growth .
I can tell you that I attend many trade shows in my industry and none of them have the poeple and traffic of a good RC show , so it goes to show you that the income is still there and so is the attraction , all we need to do take down the walls

LDM, You are absolutely right in your statement. Being new at this, I have experienced a lot of snobs in this hobby. I visited a club the other day where they where hosting a fly-in, and not ONE person introduced himself to me. I won't be joining that club. The funny thing is, I have my own field to fly from but I wanted to get involved in the social aspect of this hobby. I quickly found out that if you don't have the newest, most expensive equipment at the field, you aren't "good enough", or if you fly an ARF you have no pride. (Gimme a break) In my eyes it should be easy to spot a newcomer, so why not recognize them and make them feel comfortable so they might join the club which requires an AMA membership, hence the growth that you all wonder about.
No, I won't be renewing my AMA membership when my three month trial is up- I don't need it to fly from my field, and if anybody wants to come here an fly you are more than welcome as long as you take the chip off of your shoulder.

LDM,

I was not trying to be judgmental, nor was I trying to be a Snob. I was just making an observation concerning Shag's comment that he has no time for building. Which side of the line you land on is your business. There is room in most (yes I said most) aspects of the hobby for ARF's as well as built models. There are notable exceptions, one being scale contests that require you to sign a Builder of the Model declaration. Personally, I don't care what you fly, just that you do fly. I think that most of you guys that make the excuses for not building are selling yourselves short. I think that most of you are capable of building, but for whatever reason/excuse don't, and are missing out on one of the more rewarding aspects of this hobby. Just my observation.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Its a shame , I am a VP of Sales in my "real " life , so my job is people , I also happen to be one of three Ice Hockey directors in a very large club and my job is parent/player relations as well as teaching and coaching hockey . I cant tell you how we go out of our way to make people feel welcome , regardless of skill , income or desire to play at a travel level .

That is the one aspect that this hobby lacks , open doors for all , if you guys come to Pa , just PM me we will go flying regardless of what you like or dislike you are welcome at the field that I fly at .

Bill I love to build , but for now I do more bashing of arfs warbirds , I just dont have the time , trust me , my kids come first , then I coach them in travel hockey , then I travel for work , then I get up at 4:45 to workout so not to take time from the family when I am home , so my schedule is full .
Kits on the shelf include a Pica P40 , 1/6 -cant wait but it will wait for the boys to go to grad school lol

Trust me most guys who dont have time to build may just not have time to build , but that does not make any of us bad , I love the planes that are built , arf , whatever , dont really care just love the hobby

and that is coming up with origianl reasons/excuses as to the slow progress of your builds.
That is where I am, the part of construction where you need more excuses than glue.... but I get a few stick on a week, and having a build thread with folks giving encouragement & proding you to keep at it helps. Even a few sticks & sheets a week add up to a plane you can be proud to show your friends, and if they really are your friends they will give encouragement after the ribbing you get for your warped fuse[:@]

First, sowega flyer, let me say that I agree 101% with you, RCPaul and LDM. Anyone that builds, flies, tinkers, or has interest in model airplanes is an OK person with me as long as they can respect my acceptance of each and every kind of model aviation. When I left the USAF in'68and went up to Chicago as a pilot with United Air Lines, I was a contest and sport CL flier and a contest Free Flight flier. Well was I knocked for a loop when I walked into Al's Hobby Shop in Elmhurst and asked about some CL items. You would have thought I was something lower than human with the ridicule I received from some hired help. (Al Fushin [sp?} was NOT like that but some of the young help was) SO THE POINT IS: model aviation has had its snobs since Day One and that is not going to change.

OTOH, just this past Sunday, I attended a Big Bird RC event form another local club in this area. I got a lot of attention from some young and old guys when I set that 96" built-up rendition of Walt Good's "GUFF" -- the first RC model in the US -- on the flight line. Remarks were "so much plane, so little engine" (ST 60) I flew it twice along with several flights of the 1/4 scale .90 powered "Little Toni" rather on the other side of the speed spectrum. I never flew another 80" gasser because I was so busy jawing with buddies both old and new that the day was shot far too soon.

I know some of those youngsters were very surprised to see that big (but light) model jump off the ground, (NO AILERONS) and fly around the sky very slowly, then rather speedy, do loops and rolls, then get trimmed for left circles, hands off the box, then a few clicks of rudder then right circles, etc. Of course they are not going to build such but they respected it. I also respect their talents with their big acrobatic machines.

Actually I think it all boils down to our inner self. What do we (we as a term) really want from others. I cannot control others. Therefore I do my thing and appreciate theirs. Regardless of AMA or what, I darn well enjoy the fellowship of other modelers and I am going to continue to do so. YOU can too.

I can only extend my sympathy to those that never indulge themselves in at least a few other options of this sport.

edit: spelling

Horrace and the others great post , now how do we change the tide ?

I have no use for the AMA. If some feel its of value, that's great too. Just not for me. I just like to unwind and have fun with a few friends. Never have a problem finding somewhere appropriate to fly.

Texas /& Kansas, two great places that I have traveled and thought of all the flat open fields that look great to fly an RC plane !!!!!
You can just drive up and take off

Between Riverside and Vegas, CA & NV had some open land... sure it gets a little hot, but it is the Mojave after all.

a great example of a fun no judgemental day .
Me -Sunday flying a H9 Corsair , tweeked with scale details , CJ retracts ect full interior .os 4 stroke 91
A buddy flying a small double winger e-flight plane
A 6 yr old kid with grandpa flying all sorts of eletric planes and the kid going on and on about how gramps crashes into trees lol
THree people at a small field , no frills no AMA , no frequency problems and no judgemental comments , we all enjoyed our planes the company of those flying there planes .

One of the best posts in this forum...it speaks volumes!

That letter was not only good but also reveals the great people that are still in this hobby that are so willing to help before they judge .

This is without doubt, the most relevant, and heart-touching, story I have ever read in these forums. Please read it well, learn from it, and try to follow it's suggestions.
quoted from an earlier post:

"To illustrate, I'd like to tell the story of my sorriest day in this hobby. I was out at the field flying, and there weren't too many other guys around. A mom pulls up with a very enthusiastic teen (14 or 15), his brother and a couple of friends. The kid loves model airplanes, and is the very proud owner of a Firebird or some foam electric plane that he's been saving up for months to buy. The mom, bless her heart, knows nothing, but has driven them 30 miles or something because the kids heard of our field and talked her into it with their enthusiasm. They came over to introduce themselves, and I'll never forgive myself for this, but I was new to the hobby, and didn't know any better, and I told the group I was very sorry, but rules were rules, and they couldn't fly here, due to no AMA card.

As they were all sadly piling back into the car, one of the more experienced club members came over to me and asked what that was all about. I told him, and he started yelling at me, "You fool!", and ran after the group, and said of course you can fly here, and spent 1/2 hour or so helping them get the plane into the air. The plane was really underpowered, but the kids didn't seem to mind and they had a ball until after many crashes it would no longer fly.

While I'm still grateful for that club member that saved me from the meanest thing I've ever done in my life, I still think the AMA set me up for it. There are all these warnings and signs about AMA membership (I don't like the "license" term either) being required, and I didn't seen any exceptions for enthusiastic kids with a harmless plane and the best Mom in the state.

All that said, I still don't know what the answer is. If the kids had done a slight amount of research, they should have seen the "AMA required" notices. The AMA has junior and trial memberships, but it's not really the money. Probably the kids should have just flown the plane in their local park, but I think they wanted to be a part of the bigger club experience. They wanted to hang out with others who shared their excitement, and on paper, our club seemed like a hospitable place.

Maybe just "winking" at the rules is the best approach, but not everybody is wise enough to do that (I wasn't). This is why Dupaquier's letter resonates with me. It just seems that maybe there could be some exception for tiny planes that really have zero chance of injuring anybody. Do you really need additional insurance to fly a plane that can barely stay up in the air? "
================================================== ==========
Another quote well worth dwelling upon....
"Not only are the octopus and human eyes nearly identical…they share the trait of hiding behind large quantities of ink when confused or upset."

LDM, you and those agreeing with you are full of yourselves. You complain about judgemental people and then you paint the AMA and every club with the same brush. I just wanted to point out the fact that it's people like you that make our hobby look bad. You complain about what? You had an experience with an individual that belonged to AMA? Then you go fly over someone else's property without permission. Making them liable for anything you might do. Yeah, what a respectable guy you are. Not every person in this world is a nice person. But, every single club I've been to has been open and accepting, unlike you. Never seen a conflict based on what you fly or your level of income. (how dumb was that example)

ptulmer , thanks , you make my point so well . My statement is that a fellow RC modeler not only wanted to help that family but he also did not snicker over a park flyer at what was a most likey dominated glow/gas field .
I love your anger that you are showing to me but as stated earlier you have proven my point . You are the poster boy for ignorance that exist in this hobby ---not the AMA , there is nothing wrong with the AMA , its only a governing body of the RC world -its people that bring pride or shame to the AMA. Read my orginal post about people , not the AMA .
You my friend are the RC guy that gives RC a bad name , its just so happens that you may be an AMA member , so inturn you can bring your great personality to the shining ranks of AMA membership .
Remember good people make great clubs , not the AMA . I have nothing bad towards the AMA , just people like you !!! I wish the AMA would start a PR program similar to USA Hockey , educating the not so friendly people like you that just drive people like me and the
other nice guys away -WE SIMPLY WANT TO ENJOY THE HOBBY .
As far as flying over a field that makes others liable please talk out the correct opening in your body before you acuse a person you dont even know . We have full permission to fly at the field that we fly and the people who own the land enjoy our planes and company .
IN addition we know exactly how far we are from another RC field so we are ethically honering our fellow RCers and there frequencys .
So please insult someone like yourself , my initial post a few pages back still holds firm , read it , it clearly says , that people drive membership down , not the AMA .

sometimes I wonder if we are all reading the same thread!!????