Same experience I've had. Before I joined AMA and a club, I used to fly in the field down the road from me. I had a lot of guys, mothers and kids, etc. stop and watch and be interested. I started giving out my business cards
with "model airplane flying" written on the face to them, probably gave out 25 or so, and never got a single call from any of them.
Our club used to have a "Farmers and Flyers Picnic" every fall to thank our neighbors and give buddy-box flight instruction to them and their kids. Pretty much a waste of time as far as getting new members to show up.
We didn't even bother this year, and may not again.

The AMA isn't growing simply because it doesn't need to. There is no vast pool of potential model airplane nuts out there just waiting to be discovered, and drawn to the AMA.
There are supposedly a couple million flyers out there who don't belong to the AMA, but they don't need to belong.

If/when the new FAA regs come out and require AMA membership to fly toy airplanes (I don't believe it will happen that way), it will obviously change.

This is why I went to the school system. I was surprised just how many high school kids were very interested in getting into the hobby/sport. I spent several hours giving flight instruction to 30 students and teachers from 4 tech classes in on one afternoon. The trick is to make learning much more beginner friendly. Flying RC aircraft looks easy when flown by someone who knows what he's doing, but it can be a tramatic experience when a rank beginner takes the sticks. There then lies the rub.
It's all but impossible to make the learning process quick, easy and therfore more fun, yet still challenging. Or is it?

fliers1

Fliers, I'm not knocking you at all. I think what you are doing is great, and wish there were more like you with an interest in
giving our youth something different and challenging to do.
I've spent a fair bit of time teaching young, old and in-between how to fly.
I've seen some young kids pick it right up, and some struggle.
Same with the other age groups.
IMO, it is not that learning to fly is so hard, because for most, it simply is not.
But, it takes a pretty high level of dedication, concentration, and most of all, pure interest,
to be successful at this. After all, flying is only part of it. Even if one is only interested in ARFs or RTFs,
there is still a fair bit of technical knowledge (and interest) needed.
Dedication, concentration, and pure interest in model aviation are lacking in most people. Someone is going to
have to show me a big change in societal values and interests for me to believe otherwise.

Starting with students from the various tech areas, as you say, may show a higher success ratio of
learning and then staying with the hobby, as compared to other groups of kids. I truly hope so.
Good luck to you.

804,

My experience with noobies runs close to yours, though it may have been a bit more positive than yours. Reasons? Maybe because I'm selfish and choosey about who I will spend my time with to help them out.....I don't participate in the Intro Pilot Program because there is an inferred obligation to take on all comers whether I assess them as company I will enjoy or not, and also inferred motivation to grow the dues paying members of the club and AMA. I feel neither that obligation or motivation. Maybe just a different perspective on what constitutes success........if they take on a continuing interest in modeling it's worth my while, active or passive, whether they join or not. I believe the 2 million figure for non-AMA modelers you mentioned a couple of posts back is probably a lowball estimate, but more importantly that your reasoning as to why they don't belong is right on the mark.
That observation of yours apparently was neglected by marketers of the PPP, and IMHO that oversight was fatal to that program. Indies like being independent, park flyers like to fly in parks..........not exclusive, regimented compounds carved out of them.

Among other reasons I have for doing it is exemplified by a recent experience with a young family that happened by while walking their dog and had previously watched what we do with interest, as close neighbors to our flying field. A couple of kids got to do some buddy-box flights and btw learned that we aren't menacing their neighborhood. They have regrettably not been back tho, as I was looking forward to. Did I waste my time spent with them? I have no regrets, and doubt that you would either.

cj

I like a challenge "OLD GEZZERS". Let's call him Jack ... 72 and shakes worse than a quaking aspen.
I tried to train him with his old beaten up trainer 40 ... I had trouble getting it off the ground it was so bad. He got fed up with me because I wouldn't let him solo ( He had a lot of problems taking off) anyway one day I see him run into the fence twice in a row on take off. He packed up and left. The very next day he came back with a brand new LECTRIC T-28. Got one of the other guys to fly it out and trim it. Next thing He's flying the T-28 doing loops rolls and good landings. Next day he's flying formation with another T-28 ... it wasn't jacks skills it was the PEICE of crap he was trying to fly on. One learns something different every day if U look for it.

In general if someone comes onto the flying field and occupies the bleachers in the covered pavilion, we have a suspect. It is our task to convert that person from a suspect to a participant. If your club is not growing, YOU and your friends are doing a poor job. If your club is adding new members, the task is being done well. Even if your club looses members to moves or other things, if you are adding NEW members things are not terrible.

Having said that, I also have not participated in the "Intro Pilot" program because it is not necessary to latch onto a new victim, er recruit. However, I have been known to buddy box someone on my 1/3 Pitts because that was what I had at the time. He flys Super Sportsers now. The issue is not really keeping the AMA growing, but keeping your own club alive which happens to also help the AMA grow slightly.

As for old geezers, I have only rejected one. It was clear he had neurological problems due to diabetes and that had caused lots of problems. After all the other instructors had rejected him, I agreed to teach him how to fly if he never started his engine. I had him almost ready to solo when he started the engine while kneeling in front of the aircraft with no wing or restraints. It made several folks physically ill to see it happen. He got a bunch of stiches in his thigh and hand and left a lot of blood all over the pit area. I told him I was done with him because this is not a blood sport.

YMMV

R/C Ken, I'm behind you 100%. This is a forum to express ideas, not a political chat room where personal attacks are the norm. You don't have to be a mechanical engineer to drive a car, same applies here. I know I have asked some pretty dumb questions in my yrs in R/C and got some really "cute" answers, but I agree, this is not the place to heap abuse on anyone.

If I dare say that the reason why the AMA is not growing is because, "the economy is bad and the average American male of 2013 is more apt to devote MOST of his free time to indoor activities now than ever before"...so then the discussion MAGICALLY becomes a "political" discussion with those who hate to hear what they do not want to believe is the truth.
I'll then read a personal testimony from some 40 year old guy who still rides dirt bikes that "disproves" my theory since HE still rides a dirt bike and still flies RC.
If you dare try to get to the root, cultural cause about why ANYTHING is the way it is, then it becomes a so-called political issue.

pretty simple really, modern day AMA isn't selling what modern day prospects want to buy.
things will not change until the AMA wakes up to the realities on the modern market, or just fades away to nothing.

Mongo, I'll bet if they were to make paying for the magazine optional, membership could only move in one direction and that is up.
They might lose revenue but they would gain [or retain] at least some folks who see paying for the magazine as a waste of money.

Well, I would agree that AMA isn't selling what many modern day modelers want to buy. I (and others) have already said that.
Your statement, however, implies that there are prospects out there that would buy into AMA if it offered something new, or different.
I'm sure there are some, but enough to really "Make AMA Grow"?
Let's say there are.
The $58 question is what do modern day prospects want to buy?
If anyone has the answer to that, there is probably a good job waiting in Muncie.(of course, who would want that)

I think there may be a hidden problem there.

Part of the magazine is used as a 'report' to the membership, or newsletter if you will. Not having a newsletter has been discussed as a negative in retaining the AMA's tax free status. Secondly I think the advertising pays for most of the magazine, but I could be wrong - it has been several years since I waded through the financials in any detail.

For 2014, the printed edition of MA is optional, but with no corresponding decrease in dues.

http://www.modelaviation.com/digital

So, it is clear that a hard copy of a newsletter is not required.
I remember a lot of discussion here, primarily led by Kid Epoxy, concerning optional MA, with a reduction in dues.
I think the question was, and still is, how the heck hard would it be for AMA to post on the website
only the info needed to satisfy the reporting requirement, and make the mag optional.

Amazing after 113 pages of posts it turns out the the reason the AMA is not growing in because of Model Aviation magazine............... and here I thought it was because they banned metal props on planes !

So you are certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt that giving potential members [and members who are contemplating renewing their membership or not] no choice but to buy the magazine has no effect at all on membership numbers...?
I do not know what the base dollar figure could be for an insurance only membership, but having this option available would help attract and help retain more members.
I'm not suggesting that this would make a big difference [only an idiot would come away with that conclusion], but some difference, none the less.

i can't answer yer 58 dollar question, because i am an AMA member, but, i can tell ya who can. all those non member prospects running around out there. they are the ones who need to be asked what they want from the AMA. everything else is just guesswork, poor at that from results so far.

for all the die hards that say, well, they ought to know what all the AMA has done and is doing for them and just join up. well, before they can know that, we have to get them in so we can "educate' them about the need for the AMA. standing here yelling about it to them, apparently does not work.

Just about every airplane and helicopter kit I've built, (sorry, assembled), in the last 10 years has had a "Join AMA" blurb included in the instructions or an addendum.
That reaches every modeler out there who uses these kits, and reads the instructions.
How is AMA going to reach all these prospects beyond that?
Only way I see would be a multi-million dollar ad campaign that most likely would not pay off.
Ask yourself why other niche sport/hobby companies primarily only advertise to their audiences,
preaching to the choir, so-to-speak. It's the same for this hobby.

Hoss said, "beat the bushes".
Well, that might work.
Are you a bush beater?
I'm not.

well, one definition of insanity is: doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results each time.
i think that the AMA has just about beat the blurb in the kit idea to death. it isn't working, and probably never really worked.

i have "beat the bushes", still do. amazing how many "i was an AMA member once" horror stories there are out there.

i do try to set an example to the folks that i run into in my renegade flying. let them see that not all AMA members are the jerks they usually associate such folks with being. one tuff row to hoe, i tell ya.
i have had a few that i know of join the AMA, none that i know joined the local club.

truthfully, there are only 2 reasons i am still an AMA member myself.
1. i enjoy going to events around the country.
2. as a leader member, i enjoy being a thorn in the side of the administration.

To misquote a movie "A little revolution now and again is a good thing, no?

If you have to use your homeowners insurance then you are paying so you can fly at a ama site and hear bull ama all they want is your money they donot care about you......

amen, jim

someone has to at least try and keep em honest

Interesting point, and what is "what modern prospects want to buy"?

The "fades away to nothing" is not substantiated by reality, but do not let that stop ya'

We are also losing full sixze pilots like crazy in our country, and of couse this also drags down other entities like the EAA and AOPA. But the fact that there are still enough pilots to keep both institutions alive remains. Yes less pelople fly airplanes, and if I am correct, the number might continue to decline, but it does not mean they will disappear.

Gerry

Good question, one that AMA perhaps should be seeking answers to. Trying to sell them something because AMA thinks it's good for them isn't generating the business it used to.
Yeah, 'nothing' is too extreme when describing processes like the decline of an organization, but 'fading' seems accurate. Maybe we should use concepts/terms like 'half-life' in characterizing AMA's future.


Some of us don't see a relevant comparison between AMA the other orgs, Gerry. At least that is what I infer from some prior posts in this amazing thread-that-wont-die.
I'm taking your statements about 'losing FS pilots' and 'drags down' their orgs at face value, and the nexus between those trends seems clear. Not so clear when we drop the presumption that we are losing model pilots. I don't see that happening outside the limited scope of AMA...........modeling is vastly larger than AMA, and a tour around RCU alone is enough to see that picture. What population does seem in decline is 'modelers ala AMA,' that is, those whose models require dedicated, improved facilities the beget organization to procure, i.e., clubs.

One thing I've wondered about is why non-club modelers join AMA. I've seen few answers (mongo being one of the rare birds that has aired his reasons in this forum). Maybe AMA marketers could learn something worthwhile from such folks that seem to be more like the general modeling population as to what they need/desire. After all, that sub-population is about half of the AMA members, so it shouldn't too hard for AMA to ask.

cj

again, you(AMA) will have to ask the "modern prospects" what they want directly. no AMA member can actually answer that question for them.

and you are probably right. it will be hard for AMA to be more of "nothing" in relation to the total aeromodeling public than it already is.

About 1/2 of the members of the clubs I belong at one time or another were involved with full size aviation. I am sure most (if not all) on this board cannot help but looking up when you hear an airplane. Let's face it, even if our toys are small (well 1/3 scale is not small) we love full scale airplanes. But not everybody else does. And if you have your family over for a BBQ and an AT-6 flies overhead, you will look up, and know what it is before even seeing the airplane. Well, guess what, look around. You are the only looking up...

Kids have more choices, and aviation has lost the romance it had for us. Of course, this is a big country, and there are big differences from one area to another. I can only speak form my experience. I had the opportunity to attend some jet meets, and there most pilots I met were also full size pilots many military, many commercial.

As far as the answer to why do non club members join AMA, I can only telly what I think: Maybe they want to fly at contests, or fun flys. I got my IMAA membership to be able to fly at their meets...

I have no problem with people that do not belong to clubs, heck it is a free country. I like what I do, the way I do it, and the AMA is great for my purpose.

So if for some the AMA us nothing in relation to whatever, I do not care. They have a big membership, and while I can see that the membership will be re-sized, or downsized, we will remain enough to keep this going.

I think that a lot of naysayers are well, I reserve my opinion, but it would be nice to see a new organization rising... If there is a need for an organization, it will be formed. But quite frankly in most cases you fell like getting some cheese to go with all this whine...

Gerray
We had a great weather at the field this weekend....