Hey Mike..no doubt Mark is a good kid.. but he did screw up and I just hope he is smart enough to alteast write a appoligie over this.

He new better then this that he should not been doing like that..just like you and I... Like I said he is a good kid..just hope he jumps on things to better it

Randy

So you don't know the details but it's just an "issue"? It would be an "issue" if hovering large (or any size) aircraft in the pits at major events was an ongoing problem. I wasn't there first hand (likeyou) but I have seen the video and talked to people that were there and it was not a group of people flying in the pits (which would possibly make it an issue) it was an individual.

The crash two years ago shows a pattern of behavour and is very relevant. It shows that bad judgement still exists with this individual. After all it was done by an individual.

I can say that I've never even considered flying in the pits. Have you?

Is this really the image that Horizon Hobbies wants to present? You may want to look into the specifics.

I'm still not sure why I'm replying to this thread. It certainly doesn't need more fuel. I was reading it because of the concern of some of my fellow modelers who did attend the event had. I was content to just read until I saw a major vendor being an apologist for a very dangerous act. The AMA will do what the AMA will do. That's up to them. However a major vendor condoning this type of activity by degrading it to an "issue" is pathetic.

There are 4 issues I'd like to address.

First, if an employee in my business had so brazenly and irresponsibly offended even one customer of mine, he'd be terminated on the spot. Mr. Leseberg represents several Major vendors. I have personally communicated my dissatisfaction with 3 of them via telephone. Whether they drop him from sponsorship is up to them.

Second, any attempt by any person or organization to dilute what Mr. Leseberg did with excuses or by pointing fingers at others only serves to exacerbate the problem, both now and in the future. This hobby, or industry, must know when to draw a line and say "THIS is wrong". There is no grey area in this case. Since we all know that what Mr. Leseberg did was wrong, there needs to be a punishment for his misbehaviour. Like every other person in this world, improper behaviour begets unpleasant results. Children are spanked (at least they should be) and have privileges denied. I think that form of punishment is appropriate in this case, both literally and figuratively. Given the AMA's reaction thus far, I'm sure they are sizing up a Willow switch with Mr. Leseberg in mind. I'm also sure that Mr. McConville can become instantly fully informed of what went on by making two phone calls. At least two members of Team JR witnessed what was going on. He can also email me for my telephone number and I'd be happy to discuss what happened with him. It behooves Horizon Hobby and JR to be proactive in investigating accusations against any of their sponsored flyers or representatives, and in dealing with it quickly and efficiently.

Third, I've faced death several times, and gotten away with some pretty close calls unscathed. Death by Spinning 32" propellor is not on my agenda. Mr. Leseberg will not be welcome as a flyer by me anywhere I am flying until he publicly acknowledges his mistake and takes steps to fly in a more mature manner. There is NOTHING personal in this, it's just good common sense to ensure that the guy flying next to you values your life as much as his own. Everyone makes mistakes on a moment by moment basis. Willingly putting a lot of other people in mortal danger is not a mistake, it's an attitude problem. Mr. Leseberg needs to correct his attitude. It starts with acknowledging it, then taking steps to grow out of it. I'll repeat .there is NOTHING personal in this.

Fourth. This thread has beaten this issue to death. It's time for it to END!!! I am aware of at least 3 formal complaints issued to the AMA concerning this event, and it is now in their hands. I have been basically asked to allow the matter to rest, which I am now taking steps to do. This is one of those steps. Quite frankly, I was surprised that Red quoted my GSAL post to these forums. Since he did, it's encumbent upon me to address this matter in some way. I have done so. This matter is CLOSED, and I have nothing further to say on it. Please do not PM me or email me or ask me questions in these or any other forums concerning it. I will not reply.

Since "removing" myself from RCU a while back, I have maintained 5 distinct "personalities" here at RCU. I think I have posted less than 10 times total in the last year. I have little intention to post unless something as critical as this thread appears, or it concerns me personally, or if anyone has a question concerning a product I endorse (Such as BME, HiTec, Composite-Arf, JR or Fromeco) and usually those questions are well answered by others on these forums, so my input would probably be redundant. The politics, arguing, and butting of heads is not my intention on this or any other forum, and it grew wearisome in the past. I refuse to return to that sort of a relationship with the people in this hobby. I do not know whether the RCU admin will remove this post or this "personality" from the forums. I do not really care.

This subject, and this thread, are OVER. Please. [8D]

Kris Welter

Here is the full story as told by someone who was there.

[email protected]
Subject: Re: [SA] FW: [Giant Scale Aerobatics] Stupidly Dangerous Stunts


Hi guys, this video does not show the hovering and torque rolling
between tents that many were upset about.
For those of you that were not there. ( I was so I know what happened.)
The plane in question was the Red white and Blue Yak that you see some
one touching at one point, and you see being torque rolled and slow
rolled over and near the tents. That white picked fence thing you see
once in a while is the flight line. As you cans see a lot of the
activity filmed was behind this flight line and there were a number of
people near the plane and taking pics and video.

For a good perspective of what happened that was NOT shown in the video.

If you pause the video at the start. You will see a Yellow Edge and a
White and Blue Velox.. This was about where the sportsman flight
station was and where most of the after hours activity with the Yak
occurred. Behind the flight line, but in most part away from those of
us that were working on putting our stuff away or working on our planes,

but in my opinion still to close.

As you watch the video you will see it pan from Left to right If you
were to insert a torque rolling yak in there, you would have basically
the path that the Yak took. From the sportsman pilot station area all
the way down to in between the Cutting Edge Graphics tent and the main
meeting tent you see on the right. (This big white one) The plane was
then harriored back between all these tents back to the area of the
sportsman flying station.

Those of you saying there was no one around are full of it. There were
at least 4 or 5 of us in and around those 2 white side by side pop ups
you see as the video pans from left to right. One guy was out in the
front of them working on his plane as the Yak torque rolled over his
head. I saw at least 2 or 3 people walking buy or out of the main
meeting tent to be pleasantly surprised with a face full of hovering
Yak as the yak torque rolled by.


For those of you how question why nothing was said at the time ? Well
the torque rolling between the tents part only lasted about 5 minutes.
Initially we yelled for him to get it out of there, and then I chose to

vacate the area and look for the CD. I felt it was his job to say
something. I don't believe he ever did. And Yes he did see what was
going on. I was standing right next to him watching I guess since it
was after hours, it was not his responsibility from what I am reading.
Understandable then I guess.

After the fact we did talk to Mark and said our piece. I think he
realized after the fact that this was not the smartest thing to do and
apologized to those of us that ended up being near to the plane as it
torque rolled by.
Thanks Mark. !!
He also said he would never do it again.
Good enough for me.

Hope this clears some of this up what actually happened. Probably not ,
but I tried.

Take care.

I'm glad to see this part added to the story!!! What he did from what I've read is definately a 'no no'. I'd sure hate to keep getting slammed on an ever widening scale though after I'd admitted to doing wrong and apologized for it.....

This is off-topic sort of, though it has been made an issue of several times in this thread and I'd like to understand why it is an issue.
Why are people banging on Red for quoting a post that was made to the Yahoo Groups/Giant Scale Aerobatics List? Such posts verbatim from other lists, e.g., the D-VIII list, have been quoteded here many times. This was not a private Email. Will someone, preferably one that objected in this thread to Red's quoting of that post, please explain?

Abel

Abel

Open another tread if you want my comments, since your post is apparently aimed at me.

JR

JR-

I'm not taking aim at you or anyone in particular. You are not the only one that apparently found fault with Red's posting about the incident that happened at the JR Challenge event. I'm seriously interested in the answer, and will be grateful to anyone that provides an answer. Diversion of the discussion to Red's part in bringing it to our attention has me baffled. This was a very public event, put on by people whose primary motive was publicity, as was the motive of the individual that is getting publicity, a public figure seeking to increase his stature among the public. Accounts of witnesses spread like wildfire to a lot of public places. His bad judgment resulted in adverse publicity, one-eight-zero out from what the key players wanted, so restrospectively it seems a lot of people want it hushed up; the publicity they set up themselves is no longer welcome. Well, try as they might, this genie isn't going back into the bottle. It's argued that he's a nice young man and we shouldn't embarass him and that demands that he be judged in 'closed executive session' per due process by the AMA EC, and it isn't any concern of other modelers. Hell No! It demands the kind of outrage that Horrace expressed. IMO, and I'm not going to be H about this, anybody that loves our hobby/sport and is not moved to being judgmental and outraged by this incident needs to back off on his dosing of Vallium.
Anybody else tells me to shut up about it is going get a strongly worded reply.
Heads up Green Beret, I might break from PC restraints here when/if this topic arises again.

Abel

To END this matter of Red posting what I said in the GSAL list, I think it is perfectly legitimate and pertinent for him to do so in this case. My words on any forum are PUBLIC DOMAIN!!! If this had been a PRIVATE Email shared between Red and I, I could object, and others could find fault in him doing so. As it is, Public Domain means that whatever I post may be repeated, ad nauseum if desired, anywhere else in public.

I know of no RCU rules or regulations that preclude what Red did. I find the reaction from 3rd parties to be less than germaine to what was written in that post. Attempting to give Red a hard time for doing the right thing, though you may object to him quoting in entirety another persons words, is misguided and unnecessary.

I, personally, APPLAUD what Red did. If anyone has a right to object, it is me. Since I do not object, it is ludicrous for anyone else to object, as there are no grounds for it.

J_R, it is obvious you have legal experience .. this is NOT a legal matter. . it is a matter of Principle. . therefore it far exceeds the constraints of legalities, courtroom savvy, or quoting from rules and regulations to the Nth degree. Let's leave the legalese to the AMA. The ball is in their court now.

Now. . please ..can we end this?

Kris Welter

Interestinger and interestinger.

Um, in a word, no.

This thread has taken some interesting turns, and the subject remains that of the safety coordinator's role which AMA is still trying to define.

It's a new position, and the intent of the position is to 'get the word out' on safety issues (at least as I understand the revised purpose of the position).

Discussion of the safety coordinator's role remains fair game, IMHO.

While there are some respondents in this forum who are not AMA members, the majority likely are members, and therefore _are the AMA_. How the safety coordinator's role evolves is up to US as we make our varied opinions known to the District officers and to Muncie.

The ball is in OUR court, not someone else's.

For decades we've all read (and made) complaints that AMA officials never participated in online forums, and we were largely correct - AMA officers shunned the online forums almost entirely.

Those days are over, at least here in District V. I'm here and Red's here. Haven't counted noses of the other D-V officers who might be present, and for all I know Tony is reading the forum as well. Nobody makes us put up with nonsense drivel accusations of being 'good ol' boys' so we can maybe stumble across a nugget of orignal thought in these forums, we do it because it's part of the job of being the District Safety Coordinator and a District AVP.

If the AMA members in this august pack of aeromodeling lunatics don't count as -the AMA-, who does ?

After reading this thread and finding the video online I am a bit upset by all of this.

Some may say that since I wasn't there, I am not entitled to an opinion on it. But when I see someone in a video who is clearly breaking a known AMA rule just for the sake of showboating it bothers me. Certainly the pilot involved, Mark Leseburg, who is a good pilot, should have known there was a AMA safety rule regarding flying in the pits. Not only could have someone been hurt by some sort of glitch with the equipment, pilot error, etc, but this can affect all of OUR flying priveleges in the future by forcing even more rules for us to abide by.

The AMA, in my opinion, should suspend his AMA membership for a period of time, AND the sponsors (including RCU) should really reconsider whether or not they want to sponsor this sort of behavior.

Just my .02

Bill

If a guy hovers 24 feet from people (not 25) who cares if the safety officer or cd says anything. They may even make a short note at the begining of the day and say "ok guys listen up, 25 feet is the absolute minimum, let's keep it out there.

If a guy waves a loaded gun at the crowd that will go off if the batteries die or anything else fails and then says "I am sorry, I see how bad that must have appeared", it's a no brainer. We are adults, not kids. If the safety officer or cd does not have the balls to do something why did they take the job? I think they should have gotten ALL the officials together, had an impromptu meeting with the fella, at the very least revoke his flying privelages for the day. They should have all discussed the apropriate action for something this severe. You can't ignore something like that.

You mean this video http://www.iflyrcairplanes.com/images/JRChallenge.wmv ?

Hey ya'll watch this!

The proverbial FIVE words of aviation:

Now watch THIS! OH SH-T

When you compete in scale, if you cross the flight line in the course of your flight (presumably accidently) you loose the score of that maneuver. If you do it 2x the flight ends.

Maybe there should be certain actions which go beyond that. For instance, If some one were to intentionally fly on the wrong side of the flight line, their flying would be suspendd for the next 24hrs or further pending review. Actions of this nature would be sent to the AMA.

The point of this is in scale, it happends, some one looses it on take off, *&%$ I did it. No questions, a ZERO. Some one pulls a stunt like that. Your off for the next 24hrs while we report it and decide further action. Hard rules for bad stunts you would think pilots would know better.

I am not saying this is the answer just an idea. Flying is differnt now than it was 10 years ago. It will be different tomorrow too.

Looks like the monkey cage at a ZOO. Real proffessional no body parts[&o] Newbies should learn a lot from this tpye o flying, they can only get better[>:]

This is a response to Andy Kane's post on the Scale list, basically saying what Mark Leseberg did was no big deal. It seems Mark did this last year too.



You no I realy been having a hard time sitting here and not saying
anything.. I just dont want to lose friends over this topic but its just has
to be said

You no last year I was the main wittness to the worst accident RC history in
Canada and a friend of mine actully was written off by the Doctors but by
gods choice his system turn around and stop shutting down and he lives..and
by far will never be 100% by far


Andy I cant help it.. Tell me.. why is it when a top dog breaks the rules
and having fun its alright with some of you guys?? and as allways its alot
of the TOP DOGS that think its alright?? But if a accident would have happen
that day from the same person would you still use the FUN word??

1/ People flying in the Pits with there electrics..ITS THE PITS..RULES BROKE
2/ 40% Yak flying in the Pits.. RULES BROKE

And to top it off Last year at the same venue same person broke the IN THE
PITS RULES with a electric and some of us said something about it and YOU
YOURSELF had to go out and make him get it out of the pits..

Sorry Andy I just could not understand this kid of come back from you.. I
think you are one hell of a nice and GREAT guy and so is the memebers of the
club for what they did for me last year and you no what I mean.. but just
dont understand with your comeback

Saftey is Saftey PERIOD

Sorry I realy hated to say something just what I went threw last year I just
dont ever want to go threw it again if I can help it or wish it on anyone

You Cant stop a accident.but you sure can prevent it..ITS OUR JOB AND
RESPONSIBILTY

Its time alot of other people and there is ALOT that need to be reminded

Randy

With a little luck you can get by with any thing, Shock flyers in the pits, Tail touch, Hitting sun shades with plane ,and throwing thing at hoovering planes[] I got worse when the wind helped me put a plane with elevator problems back on the flight line, after I shut down the engine.[&o]

What's wrong with tail touching? And there is a difference between a 8 oz foamie and a gas powered model flying in the pitts.

I hope you never have to find out the hard way[&o] You must not have seen the hole in the top of the sunshade or tent what ever 8oz foamie with out gear!! can still make a hole in your head, interence to flying field.

AS my dear departed dad pointed out to me--the jolt from a spark plug won't really hurt you--but it will make you hurt yourself.
Distractions in the pits at the wrong time(e.g., when there are people and airplanes in there) can cause people to hurt themselves. Ever hear of a bee flying around in a car causing a roll-over? I know one that happened that way.

Roger

Wether it takes out an eye or kills 3 people, no one should have to be told this stuff. They got away with it. What are odds, 1-10, 1-100? when is doing aerogant and foolish things ok? CERTAINLY NOT people who are supose to be examples for others representing companies, teams, etc. If I was one of the companies I would have droped their sponsership no questions. Just because they think people look up to them doesn't mean they can act like this. I'have been around people like this and rules are for "other people". If the AMA doesn't repremand them then they will still have to endure the hardship from others in the R/C comunity.

At the time there is no problem with a little tail-touching!

Your statement about the foamie and gas powered machine does not end with a ? so I accept it as a statement, implying that there is some difference about the operation.

Simply let me say that at my club's field there would be no difference if such item is flown in the pit area or anywhere not in compliance with the club rules. Willful endangering the person of another human is subject to use of strong preventive force. [>:] End of story.

Gow589 you are correct and on the right track. The recent incident at the 2005 JR Challenge and the many threads about it have forced me to add my 2 cents, even though I am very reluctant to do so, as probably are many others. In general I have no issue with giant scale 3D pilots or their style of flying as long as they do it safely.The fact is many of them don't fly safely. Some of them, certainly not all, have an attitude problem. Stereotypically, the ones with the attitude problem have big egos, big wallets, little common sense, and little respect for the rest of us. Many of them insist on hovering 30 and 40% airplanes a few feet and sometimes even inches from themselves and others. They actually believe their "superior skills" and superior equipment, ie more expensive, precludes them from having an "accident". This is arrogance beyond belief. We all know humans make mistakes, dumb thumbs or someone turns on the same frequency at the wrong time etc. We all know things mechanical and electronic fail, radios glitch, servos fail, horns break, etc. A fatality will occur from this practice sooner or later. Another arrogant defense of this practice is that while hovering the airframe has no airspeed or forward velocity. What about the force and speed of the tip of that 32 inch prop on the business end of a 16 horsepower engine. Would they put their head under the mower deck of a riding lawn mower while it is running? Someone will eventually kill themselves or someone else while hovering giant scale "close in". The issue then will be the financial impact on the hobby and even possible legislation to regulate the hobby. In court an attorney will have a field day with the negligence of those involved in that first fatality from a hovering 3D plane. In fact we all are negligent as long as we allow this practice to continue uncensored. 3D flying and hovering is fine if kept at least 25 feet from any people. The big name guys and others disrespect us all when they insist on hovering within a few feet or less of themselves and others, or insist on touching the hovering aircraft etc. The thing that amazes me most is we have had no official response from AMA, JR, or RCU to-wards the individual responsible for the latest incident, but not the first, at the JR Challenge. We as participants in this hobby need to take action of our own. Perhaps as individuals we could temporarily boycott JR products or complain at the JR booth in Toledo, or send letters and emails to JR until they discipline or dismiss the "bad actor" they have for a rep. Perhaps as individuals we could flood AMA HQ with phone calls and emails about our displeasure with this behavior. Perhaps we can contact RCU that this person should not be on Team RCU. At the very least we need to get the word out to the average RC flyer that we need to "save" the hobby from the "bad actors" before it is to late. Responsible RC flyers, including most of the 3D guys, are still the majority and it is our responsibility to stop unsafe behavior. For the 3D guys I have offended, no even after many years of flying I am not yet skilled enough to do 3D, so that makes everything I have said incorrect. Right?