Alternate to AMA
05-02-2005, 06:39 PM
#2
RE: Alternate to AMA
An insurance company that could offer better coverage for much less money [than AMA ] would have to be at the core of any such movement. The biggest stumbling block is how does the issuing agent gain or even enforce acceptance by model clubs? The legal aspect of the AMAs' ,"our way or the highway" grip on clubs and their membership would already have to have been challenged and defeated. The way that this is done is by, "salting" the AMA clubs with dozens of applicants with the new,"MODEL AVIATOR INSURANCE" cards. When they get turned away, then the lawsuits get filed against the AMA by the dozens that challenge their right to operate the way things are now. There are most likely several points of law that the AMAs' policy could be challenged and defeated. This dream sequence would never happen unless you had some insurance tycoon out there with a huge vendetta against the AMA, and maybe a couple dozen friends who are lawyers with the same beef.
05-02-2005, 06:58 PM
#3
RE: Alternate to AMA
ORIGINAL: combatpigg
An insurance company that could offer better coverage for much less money [than AMA ] would have to be at the core of any such movement. The biggest stumbling block is how does the issuing agent gain or even enforce acceptance by model clubs? The legal aspect of the AMAs' ,"our way or the highway" grip on clubs and their membership would already have to have been challenged and defeated. The way that this is done is by, "salting" the AMA clubs with dozens of applicants with the new,"MODEL AVIATOR INSURANCE" cards. When they get turned away, then the lawsuits get filed against the AMA by the dozens that challenge their right to operate the way things are now. There are most likely several points of law that the AMAs' policy could be challenged and defeated. This dream sequence would never happen unless you had some insurance tycoon out there with a huge vendetta against the AMA, and maybe a couple dozen friends who are lawyers with the same beef.
An insurance company that could offer better coverage for much less money [than AMA ] would have to be at the core of any such movement. The biggest stumbling block is how does the issuing agent gain or even enforce acceptance by model clubs? The legal aspect of the AMAs' ,"our way or the highway" grip on clubs and their membership would already have to have been challenged and defeated. The way that this is done is by, "salting" the AMA clubs with dozens of applicants with the new,"MODEL AVIATOR INSURANCE" cards. When they get turned away, then the lawsuits get filed against the AMA by the dozens that challenge their right to operate the way things are now. There are most likely several points of law that the AMAs' policy could be challenged and defeated. This dream sequence would never happen unless you had some insurance tycoon out there with a huge vendetta against the AMA, and maybe a couple dozen friends who are lawyers with the same beef.
05-02-2005, 08:36 PM
#5
RE: Alternate to AMA
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the AMA is a bad deal. I'm too busy building and flying to really care. I couldn't care less if my combat or racing is sanctioned either. I can enjoy this hobby just fine without anyones' help. If the original question posed was meant like we are starting with a clean slate, then I think you gain interest and popularity through demonstrations and sponsored contests and exhibits. The same formula that got the AMA and commercial aviation off the ground.
05-02-2005, 10:15 PM
#7
RE: Alternate to AMA
Let me pose an aditional question. What if a group got together and petitioned an insurance co to provide insurance for a club, and it was insurance only. Would there be a market for a company with no organizational benifit to suply insurance only to speciffic clubs? Specific situations?
05-02-2005, 10:51 PM
#8
RE: Alternate to AMA
ORIGINAL: gow589
If there was an alternate to AMA, what would you want and how would you organize it? This is not about knocking AMA, but to start from a fresh piece of paper for modern times. How would you gain suport, and make it work?
If there was an alternate to AMA, what would you want and how would you organize it? This is not about knocking AMA, but to start from a fresh piece of paper for modern times. How would you gain suport, and make it work?
If I had 20 million yankee dollars to spare (three (3) years operation without income) I just might attempt it, however I do not so that choice is also gone with the wind. [:@]
However to discuss the question, the new organization would START with:
1. A Central South home base, a small office building and a small office staff.
2. Some insurance company would be contracted to furnish a two million dollar liability SECONDARY LIABILITY -- only -- policy for an expected 100,000 persons. No medical, no theft, simply liability.
3. A Business Plan to accomplish within the first year:
a. Acceptance initially as an IRC 501(c) (7) nonprofit organization
b. Contract with at least two (2) commercial magazines to carry the organization's 6-10 page Newsletter Distribution to
include member-subscriptions, and to the specific media's standard distribution.
c. Initially appoint and establish a Board of Directors consisting of:
(1) modelers well known and well versed in all phases of model aviation, each being from a designated District each of
three (3) to four (4) states.
(2) A President who is also the Chairman of the Board, and one Executive Vice President
d. Establish an Event Endorsement Plan to promote and advertise model aviation events.
e. Establish a Competitive Standards Board, appointed by the District Directors, to oversee the rules and regulations of
events.
f. Begin advertising, and soliciting members.
g. Begin a program for organizing CHAPTERS with intent to have Chapter workers designated as Volunteers for the later
changeover to IRC 501 (c) (3) whereas volunteers may be able for deductions from taxable income at volunteer rates.
4. Within the second year:
a. Continual refinement of the first year's activities.
b. Increase the base of membership via:
(1) Media advertising.
(2) Direct Contact with known serious modelers and thus word-of-mouth.
(3) Enhancements to all worker-supporters to retain their memberships.
(4) Reduce rules and regulations to conform with all other insurance requirements.
(5) On-line operations to reduce all Chapter "paperwork" to the absolute minimum to obtain basically "Who are You?" and
"Where are You?"
c. Establish the new Competitive Standards Board in operation. All Event Directors to be as directed by the host Chapter,
with the concurrence of the District Competitive Standards member, on an event by event basis.
5. Within the third (3) year:
a. Focus on obtaining more members and more chapters.
b. Review operations.
(1) Solicit information from Chapter officers through District Directors
(2) Focus on reductions of paperwork, rules, and unneeded overhead.
c. Establish a voting system to elect District Board of Director members that will provide members with an opportunity to
replace 25-35% of District Directors each year.
(1) A national election for a President/Chairman and the Executive Vice President for four (4) year terms.
(2) The President and Executive Vice President will be separately elected on the two years space between each other.
d. Set goal to end third year with a minimum of 100,000 members.
e. Complete transition to 501 (c) (3) status.
6. Beginning the fourth year, Establish Business Plan set up to within very short time to acquire the remaining assets
of the defunct Academy of Model Aeronautics.
Does this answer any question/s?[>:]
edited to assist in the loss of format when entering the post
05-02-2005, 11:29 PM
#10
RE: Alternate to AMA
Initially The BOD would offer acceptance to the other side at the new Chapter's chosen facility. Actually the local Chapters should be allowed to make those decisions.
Right now I want all AMA because that is the only game in town that will allow BOZO33DD to compensate me if he hurts me lil ol' bod.
Given that in this ideal organization there are other options with good insurance, then personally I would not really care how the Chapter voted to go. These things really would be up to the local units and my concept of an overall organization would be to obtain the best policy available to allow such local self-direction.
Maybe look at it this way. I'm running a business with 10 million income and outgo. Breaking even! The insurance is 1.5 million. If I can cut the overhead by 30%, 3 million, then I can enhance the insurance by 100%, now at 3 million, and the first 1.5 mil. is already factored in, so I now have twice as good insurance as before and I also have 1.5 mil. in the jeans to do some other good thing with. Over statement of course but used for illustration.
Once the good things happen, and with more and more local control, the word will get around. Like that old movie, "If you build it they will come." Just a crazy dream, but it's better than the nightmare we have now.[
]
"...sounds like you've had some time to concoct a plan..."
No, it just kind of popped up when I read gow589's question. With another 30 minutes I could improve it by a good margin. 
Right now I want all AMA because that is the only game in town that will allow BOZO33DD to compensate me if he hurts me lil ol' bod.
Given that in this ideal organization there are other options with good insurance, then personally I would not really care how the Chapter voted to go. These things really would be up to the local units and my concept of an overall organization would be to obtain the best policy available to allow such local self-direction.
Maybe look at it this way. I'm running a business with 10 million income and outgo. Breaking even! The insurance is 1.5 million. If I can cut the overhead by 30%, 3 million, then I can enhance the insurance by 100%, now at 3 million, and the first 1.5 mil. is already factored in, so I now have twice as good insurance as before and I also have 1.5 mil. in the jeans to do some other good thing with. Over statement of course but used for illustration.
Once the good things happen, and with more and more local control, the word will get around. Like that old movie, "If you build it they will come." Just a crazy dream, but it's better than the nightmare we have now.[
]"...sounds like you've had some time to concoct a plan..."
No, it just kind of popped up when I read gow589's question. With another 30 minutes I could improve it by a good margin.
05-03-2005, 01:32 AM
#11
RE: Alternate to AMA
ORIGINAL: combatpigg
An insurance company that could offer better coverage for much less money [than AMA ] would have to be at the core of any such movement. The biggest stumbling block is how does the issuing agent gain or even enforce acceptance by model clubs? The legal aspect of the AMAs' ,"our way or the highway" grip on clubs and their membership would already have to have been challenged and defeated. The way that this is done is by, "salting" the AMA clubs with dozens of applicants with the new,"MODEL AVIATOR INSURANCE" cards. When they get turned away, then the lawsuits get filed against the AMA by the dozens that challenge their right to operate the way things are now. There are most likely several points of law that the AMAs' policy could be challenged and defeated. This dream sequence would never happen unless you had some insurance tycoon out there with a huge vendetta against the AMA, and maybe a couple dozen friends who are lawyers with the same beef.
An insurance company that could offer better coverage for much less money [than AMA ] would have to be at the core of any such movement. The biggest stumbling block is how does the issuing agent gain or even enforce acceptance by model clubs? The legal aspect of the AMAs' ,"our way or the highway" grip on clubs and their membership would already have to have been challenged and defeated. The way that this is done is by, "salting" the AMA clubs with dozens of applicants with the new,"MODEL AVIATOR INSURANCE" cards. When they get turned away, then the lawsuits get filed against the AMA by the dozens that challenge their right to operate the way things are now. There are most likely several points of law that the AMAs' policy could be challenged and defeated. This dream sequence would never happen unless you had some insurance tycoon out there with a huge vendetta against the AMA, and maybe a couple dozen friends who are lawyers with the same beef.
I agree totaly with the post in quote the AMA insures the vast majorty
of flying sites in the U.S. if they are organized clubs about 98% of them.
any other organization that starts up wont be able to stay in business
because there insurance will be worthless at over 90% of the clubs
currently in operation, only if there was a way to make AMA stop
telling there clubs to refuse non members will we ever see a new
organization geared around modelers.
05-03-2005, 07:02 AM
#12
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RE: Alternate to AMA
ORIGINAL: ira d
only if there was a way to make AMA stop
telling there clubs to refuse non members will we ever see a new
organization geared around modelers.
only if there was a way to make AMA stop
telling there clubs to refuse non members will we ever see a new
organization geared around modelers.
Dan
05-03-2005, 07:18 AM
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RE: Alternate to AMA
Non-AMA members cannot be FLYING members of an AMA club, for insurance verification purposes.
It is up to the club whether or not to allow non-AMA (and by extension non-club) members to fly at their field. It's highly discouraged, I believe, again for insurance verification purposes. I as a club officer am not going to stand guard, or post guards at each of our fields 24/7 to stop each and every non-member and ask for their homeowner's policy to make sure they're covered. A mere mortal probably couldn't tell if the policy covered R/C flying anyway, and then I have to call their provider and verify that the policy is paid up.
Since AMA club fields are generally on PRIVATE property, there's nothing you can do in a court of law to force them to accept non AMA members. You might have a leg to stand on with fields on public property, but you'd have to go after the governing body in charge of that land, since it's normally an agreement between the club and the county/city/state regarding AMA and/or club membership.
In this whole thing, the club isn't trying to force anything on anybody out of maliciousness. They're trying to protect themselves and their flying privileges as best they can.
It is up to the club whether or not to allow non-AMA (and by extension non-club) members to fly at their field. It's highly discouraged, I believe, again for insurance verification purposes. I as a club officer am not going to stand guard, or post guards at each of our fields 24/7 to stop each and every non-member and ask for their homeowner's policy to make sure they're covered. A mere mortal probably couldn't tell if the policy covered R/C flying anyway, and then I have to call their provider and verify that the policy is paid up.
Since AMA club fields are generally on PRIVATE property, there's nothing you can do in a court of law to force them to accept non AMA members. You might have a leg to stand on with fields on public property, but you'd have to go after the governing body in charge of that land, since it's normally an agreement between the club and the county/city/state regarding AMA and/or club membership.
In this whole thing, the club isn't trying to force anything on anybody out of maliciousness. They're trying to protect themselves and their flying privileges as best they can.
05-03-2005, 07:43 AM
#14
RE: Alternate to AMA
This is an interesting question.
Seems to me that the AMA clubs promote the AMA insurance. All you would need is your own non sanctioned AMA club and appropriate liabilty insurance. I doubt it would be cheaper then what the AMA offers but I think that's all you need. I fly on private sites all the time and quite honestly all I would need is liabilty protection. Why does the organization need to be non-profit? Why not open it up for profit and get several insurance vendors involved. I think that's a great way to get better service out of the organization.
Now before I get flamed or you respond with PO'd smileys in your post - keep in mind this open conversation and we are mearly discussing the what if's. Ain't nothing wrong with that - but there is pleanty wrong with burying your head in the sand.
RickP
Seems to me that the AMA clubs promote the AMA insurance. All you would need is your own non sanctioned AMA club and appropriate liabilty insurance. I doubt it would be cheaper then what the AMA offers but I think that's all you need. I fly on private sites all the time and quite honestly all I would need is liabilty protection. Why does the organization need to be non-profit? Why not open it up for profit and get several insurance vendors involved. I think that's a great way to get better service out of the organization.
Now before I get flamed or you respond with PO'd smileys in your post - keep in mind this open conversation and we are mearly discussing the what if's. Ain't nothing wrong with that - but there is pleanty wrong with burying your head in the sand.
RickP
05-03-2005, 03:40 PM
#15
RE: Alternate to AMA
Sorry I was out flying today.
I have some ideas but I thought I would see what ideas others had. My ideas are more general, not so much details. Who knows maybe my ideas would generate different/better ideas. The fundamentals would be organized a little differently.
First thing is to address what is need or wanted. How about
1. Insurance
2. Way of forming groups/clubs,
3. National organization to connect these groups, to help mold these groups and give ways to interact and to promote aviation and modeling
Having groups allows people to get together, locate fields, be represented, have a model for conduct, etc.
First create an organization who is NOT an insurance company BUT courts insurance companies (more than one). By doing so they can lay down basic club profiles and guidelines for insurance companies.
For instance, A basic club profile may include airplanes up to a certain engine size and weight perhaps even type. Make this a standard profile to start, get 2 or more insurance companies to offer a policy add-on (or independent policy) based on the profile. If we can get more than one insurance company, we can get pricing competition. By creating a profile, we can create a standard other insurance companies can use. If we get one profile accepted and used, other profiles can be added or modified. Cost assessments made on not only the profile but other local hazards such as proximity of houses and other property.
Once the profile idea is accepted any needed profile can be submitted. If 5 guys want to create a small club to fly electric airplanes less than 2lbs in a public park, get insurance based on the profile, they can submit it as a sanctioned an insured group. If another group wants to fly ½ scale airplanes in the salt flats or in the desert, they can submit a new profile and get accepted based on it’s group.
In doing so the group is not the insurance company. Insurance will be based on what you do and where you do it. There may be site insurance or individual insurance where a site may require insurance, not necessarily AMA.
The organization would have much smaller dues than AMA, and focus more on aviation than both. They can organize events, give guidance to common problems, and be representation for groups of people when needed.
They could co-exist with AMA and may even make AMA re-think how they do a few things.
One thing I would like to see is a section devoted to using the clubs to promote aviation history; And a group for young people where they can gain points and status by doing things in aviation.
Just some raw ideas.
I have some ideas but I thought I would see what ideas others had. My ideas are more general, not so much details. Who knows maybe my ideas would generate different/better ideas. The fundamentals would be organized a little differently.
First thing is to address what is need or wanted. How about
1. Insurance
2. Way of forming groups/clubs,
3. National organization to connect these groups, to help mold these groups and give ways to interact and to promote aviation and modeling
Having groups allows people to get together, locate fields, be represented, have a model for conduct, etc.
First create an organization who is NOT an insurance company BUT courts insurance companies (more than one). By doing so they can lay down basic club profiles and guidelines for insurance companies.
For instance, A basic club profile may include airplanes up to a certain engine size and weight perhaps even type. Make this a standard profile to start, get 2 or more insurance companies to offer a policy add-on (or independent policy) based on the profile. If we can get more than one insurance company, we can get pricing competition. By creating a profile, we can create a standard other insurance companies can use. If we get one profile accepted and used, other profiles can be added or modified. Cost assessments made on not only the profile but other local hazards such as proximity of houses and other property.
Once the profile idea is accepted any needed profile can be submitted. If 5 guys want to create a small club to fly electric airplanes less than 2lbs in a public park, get insurance based on the profile, they can submit it as a sanctioned an insured group. If another group wants to fly ½ scale airplanes in the salt flats or in the desert, they can submit a new profile and get accepted based on it’s group.
In doing so the group is not the insurance company. Insurance will be based on what you do and where you do it. There may be site insurance or individual insurance where a site may require insurance, not necessarily AMA.
The organization would have much smaller dues than AMA, and focus more on aviation than both. They can organize events, give guidance to common problems, and be representation for groups of people when needed.
They could co-exist with AMA and may even make AMA re-think how they do a few things.
One thing I would like to see is a section devoted to using the clubs to promote aviation history; And a group for young people where they can gain points and status by doing things in aviation.
Just some raw ideas.
05-03-2005, 08:19 PM
#16
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RE: Alternate to AMA
I think RCU is a great idea. I think it would have been great if the AMA had made their , (our) website just like this one. I think the AMA is pretty good. But I wish it was a little bit more forward thinking. I wish they had started this type of site. Feedback and discussion among the membership would be great. Discussing issues and having input into solutions in this way would be awesome. It might be like herding cats ! But what a sense of community ? RCU feels more like a community than the AMA does. That is what I would change.
I really like Horrace's idea about having the newsletter in a couple of national RC mags, and scrapping Model Aviation. What a simple idea. The AMA mag is just not up to standard and hasn't been for at least 15 years. And regional VP's can write their columns on the website. Pictures and reports from members present could be shown in forums about events held in district A or district Z on the website. The whole thing needs to be jazzed up a bit. That might make a good forum here.
Esprit De Corps ! I am one of those guys that wears the AMA's T-shirts and jackets to work. I want people to know that I fly models and that I belong to the AMA. I wish I saw more people come out of the closet and be proud of their hobby and show it. The AMA needs a better image. It needs a better sense of community. People think of AMA as the insurance company because that is all they see. I don't wear an ALLSTATE jacket. I'm not advertising insurance. There needs to be some recognition of the members. Not some peice of tin painted gold. Maybe show the faces of the members that just turned 50 this month or the members that have been onboard for 25 years or SOMETHING. Lets put some faces on the AMA. Not just Joe Millionaire with his new 50% F100 prototype at the invitational. Lets put Joe Nobody from Lancing with his 3 daughters in that national mag, make it the cover page of our 6 page newsletter.
I really like Horrace's idea about having the newsletter in a couple of national RC mags, and scrapping Model Aviation. What a simple idea. The AMA mag is just not up to standard and hasn't been for at least 15 years. And regional VP's can write their columns on the website. Pictures and reports from members present could be shown in forums about events held in district A or district Z on the website. The whole thing needs to be jazzed up a bit. That might make a good forum here.
Esprit De Corps ! I am one of those guys that wears the AMA's T-shirts and jackets to work. I want people to know that I fly models and that I belong to the AMA. I wish I saw more people come out of the closet and be proud of their hobby and show it. The AMA needs a better image. It needs a better sense of community. People think of AMA as the insurance company because that is all they see. I don't wear an ALLSTATE jacket. I'm not advertising insurance. There needs to be some recognition of the members. Not some peice of tin painted gold. Maybe show the faces of the members that just turned 50 this month or the members that have been onboard for 25 years or SOMETHING. Lets put some faces on the AMA. Not just Joe Millionaire with his new 50% F100 prototype at the invitational. Lets put Joe Nobody from Lancing with his 3 daughters in that national mag, make it the cover page of our 6 page newsletter.
