gow589

My Feedback: (1)

It is one thing to disagree with DB and issues. Constant attacks lack honor and substance. DB recognizes the problems everyone is having with 3d.

Here is the problem. People these days are focused and zeroed in on what they are doing and oblivious to what others are doing. Helicopters at most fields are not allowed to fly with the airplanes and have their own area. Over the past couple years guys have been learning to hover airplanes like helicopters and have been doing so right over the runway, right in the normal flight path of traffic and right in front of people who are trying to fly; often not just in the way but in an area uncomfortable to those around. The root of this problem is peoples inherent drive to do what ever “they have the right to do� regardless of what is right or honorable. It is a core fault in our society today.

I fly a scale Bearcat with 100cc engine. I try to fly when there are not very many people at the field. When I do fly it, I try to time my flights so no one is up. Not everyone wants this beast in the air when they are flying. If I make fly by’s they are dependant on who is around and if any one is flying. If no one is flying and no one is at the flight line, high-speed low fly by’s on the other side of the runway. Some one fires up an airplane, I keep it out a bit and away from the traffic. It’s common courtesy, and it’s how you treat other people.

Now if I go out midday Sunday or Saturday with a .60 size airplane, I can’t even do a touch and go because of the micro electrics hovering over the runway. I don’t go to the field much anymore except when I am flying something I can’t fly off the road here or in my back yard.

This problem has been causing problems in fields across the country. Our field for example is getting divided where the airplane guys won’t fly during the times the 3d’rs are. Everyone is trying to find solutions that will work without totally splitting up the clubs.

1. Dave understands this and is trying to figure out how to address it. It’s not anti-3d, it’s anti fly that 3d in some one’s face because it’s darn rude. Who cares how good you are or how many accidents you have not had. It’s a behavior issue, not 3d.
2. These are good problems to have but must be dealt with anyway. They are good problems because we are expanding our airplane technologies and flight envelopes.

These are good problems but they still must be dealt with. Do you really want to hang DB for trying?

The way I see it he has 3 options. 1. Ignore it. 2. Create massive rules which will limit people and upset everyone. 3. Talk about the problem and allow other people to see and address the problem with minimal intervention.

3dbob37n

Crash 99- Well, I agree it would be a great world if we had no secrets but unfortunately, there are those out there who would love to do away with us all. If CNN or any of the other broadcasters knew about our losses, they would be all over us. We would never be able to lease any property from anyone, private or county/state.
If the general membership knew about it, the information is bound to leak out. Would you want military secrets given out to the terrorists? I am a vet and I can say absolutely not.
Lets just keep it amongst ourselves.
Sorry to put it this way, but I found Dave's story to be quite clear and it didn't even come close to having anything to do with 3d.
Diverse ideas are always welcome in AMA workings and I think you ought to run for regional VP or any other office. Sometimes things aren't as the appear. 3dbob

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Gow,

I think you have a point but Dave was not talking about club field policy. He said fly at the lowest skill level. I know there are some issues here in Missouri. One city has now restricted gas motors. Another restrict heli's. These clubs are stealing great flyers from their fields. All are welcome to fly with me.

The problem Dave telling anyone to fly at the lowest skill level at the field of the time, is wrong. You are so pro Dave or anti Kid I can not tell. I am sure that you say I am coming in and they will clear out to the way. When we fly over the field we are awear where the other planes are and we do not want to loose a airplane.

The problem might not be the other planes. It could be you and the air space your in and your skill level. You might be an accident waiting to happen and need other flyers to blame. You might fly something slower if needed. Just talk to the others. Not tell them what to do but talk to them.

Gro, You are always welcome to fly with me. I can tell you you will never hit me in the air.

3D, I do not know about that. Accidents happens. What outdoor activity is safer that RC?

I would love to talk more but I need to get out to the field.
Crash99

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Crash, I am not pro DB, or anti DB. I just think people are putting words in his mouth and I don't think it's fair to him. He has a big job. I don't know what he get's paid but I don't think anyones linning his pockets for him to work as hard to please as many people as he can. I know when one person gets into the position his every word is under a microscope and the english language,... well it sucks as a forum to express ourselfs.

If DB submits new rules to limit flying that would be an action that lays down a position. I have not seen him even sugest anything. I have only seen him bring up problems and other people cry wolf, come down on him hard and say he has positions he has not even said.

In fact everything he has said I have read makes good diplomatic sense. He is no Ronald Reagon as a speaker but he's better than GWB. Problems will not be solved by everyone raising their turkey feathers everytime the words 3D come out or Jets or Lithium batteries or whatever. If some one says he is hovering his airplane 5 feet in front of me, it has nothing to do with my skill level. I am not going to sit at the flight line and give full attention to my airplane when I have to constantly watch out for some one who simply needs to hover out off the runway. This is a problem that's happening across the nation. People are not against 3D. People love to do it, people love to watch it, and people love to try it. People just don't want it in their face and it shuts the runway down. It's a problem. It has nothing to do with "other people's Skill level.

As far as my skill level you adressed? Try flying a 36lb Ziroli Bearcat on a clipped wing (72"), 6" ailerons and hand made langine gear. No one has ever complained of my skill level but it's not about skill level, it's about judjement. I don't fly it in people's faces because they don't want it in their face. I don't buzz them and say "look at me, I am good!".

I am a corporate pilot by trade. I follow loosly accidents and have done so for years as many safety concious pilots have. If you look into why people crash, 90% of the root cause is not lack of skill but poor judgment. People with excelent piloting skills do dumb things and die. The best you can hope for is that you look out and train for as many duumb things as you can along the way and CHOOSE to make good decisions.

Have fun flying!

Gary

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Gary,

According to the AMA the statement is wrong. If you look into why people crash, 90% of the root cause is not lack of skill but poor judgment.

Here is what Dave said " Likewise, those who are the best pilots—those who are looked up to—need to be careful to set a good example for those with less-developed skills. They must ensure that what they do would not be dangerous to other people if a modeler of less skill attempted it in the same situation."

Best pilots, 3D, Jet, Racers Gas motor type flyers would be in this group. So what is Dave saying. I want your input since I think this should never have been said and I am sure Dave and or his staff has looked here on Risk Takers.

Crash99

PS, Yes I had fun but is was another hot one.

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

I love the heat but apparently I am the only one.

This is an example of why the English language sucks because I don't read into this what you do:

What this means is, say the local rules say low fly bys on the far side of the runway. If you get a great pilot, well admired, on the flight line BY HIMSELF he does a high speed fly by with a 100" P-51 big gas engine, 150 MPH 12" off the runway, right at the flight line. 3 guys sitting on the fence, who cares right! They all yelling "lower, faster" we all do it. Everyone is 100 feet back sitting on the fence. Cool, no problem. An hour goes by, 5 more people show up, 4 guys flying, one is a new guy who was sitting on the fence. He has just put his 3rd flight on a 60 size Super Hots and is read to make his high speed pass down the runway....with 3 other guys at the edge of the runway flying.....looking up in the air...... as he hits the ground and sends his engine and parts careening down the flight line.

In the article he made a loose reference to "High Profile" 3dr's. He didn't mention much because he didn't want to dig it all up. It was an ugly thing. They were specific incidents. It is not the only specific incidents. It becoming common for the good pilots to ignore the flight line...Which is a "Hard flight line" especially at fields not geared around 3D. It doesn't matter if it's a 10oz 3d or a 25lb 3d, at a typical club field, that's a hard line and a hard rule. If it's ok for a 10oz airplane, then is it ok for a 20oz? a 3lber, a 10lber? It is not up to the rule breakers to decide what is ok by breaking the rules.

If this is a strong activity at a club field, the guys that do that sort of thing need to set work with the club, set down guidelines, and abide by them. You could come up with a rule that says "10oz airplanes may hover in the parking lot" then that applies to everyone. That is the line, that is what is acceptable. If successful, it could be voted to 20. If not it can be changed. That is the mechanism of rules and boundaries.

Breaking rules and boundaries only screws the pot and throws a monkey wrench in the mechanism.

A girl got hit by a train this past week while talking on a cell phone. She replied that " some one should do something so we wouldn't have this problem, it's not my fault". These are the rule breakers. How can you deal with that kind of judgement?


This is where I think you have extended what he said far beyond what he really was saying and is the weakness of verbal communication.

Best regards, Gary

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Here is another example of why things aren’t as simple as they seem some times.

We had an electrical storm the other day which blew a fuse in the service box outside our house. It was dark. The electric company came out to fix it. He shinned the lights on it with his truck. He opened the box and changed the circuit with a long pole.

I was interested in what he was doing so I watched. As he got into it I stepped quite a ways back. In reality, I was not close enough to be in danger but that’s not why I moved back.

The electric guy is responsible for what he is doing and if I am present, what I am doing. He doesn’t know if I talk on cell phones and run into trains, he has to judge not only what he is doing (which is potentially very dangerous) but what I am doing. If I am too close he has to watch me at the same time.

I could have gotten much closer and watched what he was doing from a safe distance. Instead I got back so I would not be a burden or danger to him or a factor in what he was doing. It was safer for him and made his job easier.

Club filelds are everyones field. We can do something barly within the rules, or slightly over the rules but the consequences go beyond the act itself.

I have heard people say they are "too good of pilots to fly a Cub" I can show you how to fly the raged edge, well within the rules, without endangering anyone and without making people feel uncomfortable makng you wish you had a Cub! (yea, I used to make fun of em too! Ok, I still do some times) You don't have to fly ouside the rules or in a rude maner to "fly the raged edge!"

G

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Just a side not, that by the way was exactly what I said.

Hossfly

No, Gary, you are not by yourself. I am 100% with your post.
I can relate many stories, both 1/1 scale and Models where bad judgment resulted in harm to persons, material and even death to an innocent as well as the guilty.
Example: Had a young 1st. Lt. in my group that was God's gift to fighters. He would tell you so himself. I frequently tried to get him to improve his attitude and do things right so as to be an example for the other Lts. in the group. Yet he paid no attention, ragged me as too serious, and at 26 being the "Old Man." He broke minimums on instrument approaches, flunked written exams, laughed about forgetting to remove ejection safety pins, frequently showed up late and all kinds of things that would have gotten others into very serious trouble. Yes, he was a superiorly skilled stick and rudder pilot. So he was a favorite with those desk-pilots up the chain. Couldn't touch him.
It all came to rest when he was on a target tow in a T-33, with a new 2/lt. in the back seat. After the tow he entered into some low altitude aerobatics, screwed up and according to witnesses went into a tumble. T-33 could do that! Never recovered. Neither got out. Wayne's hand was clinched around the ejection seat lever and the safety pin was firmly in place.
All my many stories are not only about the other fellow. I was just plain lucky a few times myself. All because I was using bad judgment at the time.
All in all it is a matter of ATTITUDE. If one simply will NOT correct his/her ATTITUDE, and that attitude is to continue to do things that can well cause harm, then at sometime harm will come. Pilots, both 1/1 and RC can fall into 2 groups. Those that combine good judgment (recognizing what COULD happen and going out of their way to prevent it) with their stick & rudder skills are usually called PILOTS. Those that rely only on their stick & rudder skills are called AIRPLANE - DRIVERS. It's up to the individual to which group he prefers to be in.

RC or 1/1 scale these old cliches work:
There are OLD pilots and there are BOLD pilots but there are NO old bold pilots.
A pilot is one of vastly superior intellect, quick reflex, and ability to think quickly. A GOOD pilot is a pilot that never gets into something that will require a display of these attributes.

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

I had always heard that said this way: " A superior pilot will use is his superior judgement to keep him out of situations which require his superior skills".

Gary

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Gary, Hossfly

So we agree that Dave is saying we can not fly to our skill level with less skilled pilots at the field. If so, how do you improve your skill. I work on a sim but it is not the same a real life.

Crash99

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Crash if that is what you understand after what was written, you are hopeless.

Sorry!

Hossfly

No Crash, I do not agree to that. Demonstrate your skill off away from the runway. I don't have that skill, however it seems those that do want an aircraft really close. You can demonstrate your exceptional skill by 3Ding all day a 100 feet off from other fliers, and at same time you display your concern for the possibility of something going wrong and injuring someone. You then demonstrate your good judgment. My Club has a youngster, 15 years, that does just that with a 33% er. Is he better than YOU? I doubt it, but he displays a wise persona far beyond his years.

When the less-skilled starts hovering 15 ft. out, you then have every right to advise him that you are good at the activity, yet you well know that something could glitch and you rather not take such a chance. You, CRASH, are then not only demonstrating skill and good judgment, but you are also setting the example of how things should be done. That SIR is called LEADERSHIP. Remember that only the LEAD DOG on the Iditirod Team has a wide and unobstructed view. Be a leader.

In formation-flying air shows, many spectators oooh and aaah at how close the pilots fly. _ell, flying formation is EASY and the closer, the easier. The ONE GUY that has a difficult job is the LEADER. He not only has to fly his machine on a rigid time/position plan, BUT HE MUST THINK, AND PLAN AHEAD WHILE CONSIDERING ALL THE POSSIBLE GLITCHES THAT COULD HAPPEN. Anyone can FOLLOW!

Leaders are like eagles, they don't flock, you find them one at a time.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

We will disagree on one point. Flight line. The flight line is for flight. You take off and land over this space. Hovering, low passes ect is still flight. When training I will have the student make a 10 foot pass over the center of the flight line. This space is for flight.

Now you have 5-10 feet back from the edge of the flight line for your pilot area. Or do you stand at the edge of the flight line? The pits is around 25-40 feet area depending on the field. The 5-10 feet flight line to pilot boarder is set for safety.

There is no issue of flying over the flight line. Not where I fly. We will just have to disagree until the AMA places such a rule. I do not think that will ever happen.


Thanks
Crash99

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Even that twisted everything I said. You have a way of sayng people are saying (writting) stuff that just isn't so. It is so hard to expain things when you don't know what the deffinition of what "is" is. It an't worth my time.

Hossfly

Crash, you are funny. Where do you get those distances? Certainly each facility has to do the best with whatever it has to work with. AMA recommends the pilot line to be in the 15' to 25' distance behind the flight line. I have flown at all sorts of places where the pilots stand on the flight line to where they are 25' or so behind. My main club uses 15'. The runway is 100 ft wide. If another flight station (5 available) is in use, you don't make low passes or do 3D over the runway. Simple thing, either obey it or leave it.
If your club puts up with how you do things, then that is your private business. I won't be there and you just may not be here for long should you ever drop by.

Edit: replace one 'flight' with 'pilot'.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

I am sure of that. Those of you that fly pattern airplanes hate what the 3D group are able to do. Flying with power .................. You will never get it. Show off? I fly for me not others. Sometimes I will go out to the field so I will be alone.

You guys can get angry all you want. 3D flying will never die. I will fly here, all over Missouri and IL and some AR. So far I have never been ask to leave. I have been asked to fly in a mass hover. I have been asked to fly for a bunch of children but I have never been ask to leave. Hum .................................. there is a patter forming here.

Sounds like your anger about flying 3D will just make you a bitter person. I just got back from the field hovering over the flight line and I am sure that just gets you angry. I am sorry for you.

How about this, I will fly for the fun of it and you can go try to control people at the field. See we both can have our hobbies. I will remember that you are anti 3D. But here is a little secret, Flying is FUN

Crash99

3dbob37n

Boy, Crash 99, I'm beginning to believe you have a real problem. I'm outta here.

3dbob

lomcevek1

I feel lucky to be in our club. We have almost everydiscipline out there and we get along just fine. It's tough to find a good group of people like this.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

lomcevek1 ,

I am so glad to see there are other clubs other there like ours.

Crash99

WingShot

My Feedback: (3)

Not all of us who fly 3d type in huge font sizes....just so yall don't get the wrong idea about all of us....

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Look all caps is yelling not large font.

Desertlakesflying

My Feedback: (28)

There's just something to love about our Northern Nevada dry lakebeds. Although, doing something stupid over the pits won't make you real happy. But, then again if you do that over the pits you got issues.....our runway is miles long and miles wide. Kinda hard to find a place you'd be in the way. Got to love the west......lol