crash99

My Feedback: (3)

!QUOT!Tempting fate is a part of aeromodeling!QUOT!. Hum ................ I agree but I took Dave's write up to be anti 3D. Or was this a slap at a 3D group?

!QUOT!We need to tempt fate wisely!QUOT! Yes but we also need to push our skills to make us better. Come on now. Left hand turning gets old sometimes. Placing your airplane to hang on the prop, pointing towards the heavens is skill building and more fun. Touching your rudder on the runway for the first time is priceless!

Am I a risk taker, Yes. Everyone is that fly RC is. Now in saying this I love 3D, I love taking a large bi plane up for a gentle flight. I love teaching a newbee how to fly with out cheating. I love a park flayer airplane. (Well some) I love the smile of a kid watching us do our thing.

So if this was a anti 3D thing. ....................................... Shame on you Dave

Thanks
Crash99
Flying for the fun of it.

Bob101

His whole last article was a load of crap at the end. By his defintion of "not doing manaevuers even if you are skilled enough if people are present who aren't skilled enough because they might try it" makes you wonder where "he" draws the line. By that defenition I shouldn't fly inverted because people just off the body box aren't skilled enough yet to do the same and if they see me and try it that's a danger. Same for any manauver.

Basically his last couple of paragraphs were the dumbest thing I've come out of anyone's mind related to this hobby.

Hossfly

Everyone on this AMA forum for the past several years well knows that H. Cain (me) is not a favorite supporter of Dave Brown as President of AMA. (On a personal level I rather like the Ol' Flart -- even though he's not as ol' and smelly as me!)

The above stated, I think Dave's Jun 2005 article was one of the best if not the absolute best that he has ever produced. I concur 101% with it.

In my opinion, I think DB is saying it about such as the JR Rep, at the recent JR Challenge, that waltzes down through the pit area with a Big Bird doing torque rolls. Regardless of the fantastic talent of such a person, there is absolutely no excuse for such RISK. Again the group that lights a .40 machine on fire and flies it around at night, this past month, needs to adhere to such advice that Dave presents.
As -- I believe -- Hemingway stated, "For whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee." Those that make model aviation appear reckless and dangerous around the public, endangers my right to enjoy the sport. I have no sympathy for their position.

IMO, Dave illustrates that he is not faulting the technology, or the skills, but the poor judgment of certain individuals as mentioned above. In addition just maybe some that think they can do the same, will have a second thought and not do that deed that could result in severe injury to someone.

Being able to learn a superior skill in a controlled environment and exercising therein is one thing, however deliberately placing unsuspecting spectators at extreme risk is another thing.

submikester

My Feedback: (6)

I didn't take it that way at all - in fact I thought it was a great safety article. There is a difference between doing low fast inverted flybys and just flying inverted at a safe altitude a safe distance from the pilot boxes. Too often folks simply fly too fast, too low and too close to other pilots to be considered safe. You may have the skill to do it (I feel I do) but just the same a radio glitch can happen at any moment - it's a factual risk that you must always consider in your flight time. It can ALWAYS happen at ANY time no matter the confidence in your gear. I range check my radio often with each model I fly it with. Beyond the radio safety issues there is also the example you set for other pilots. Novice pilots look up to better pilots abilities and maneuvers by nature. "Man, I want to be that good some day." One day they will be and they'll be endangering you the way you endangered them; when something bad happens who will be responsible? Something bad will eventually happen; I've seen it. Recently I had a confrontation with a younger pilot and his grandfather. We were flying at the same time and the kid was doing low fast flybys with his dago red/ys 110 combo. The low and fast passes I can handle here and there but he was doing them in between the runway and the pilot boxes. I landed at once and went to talk to his grandfater. I was a bit upset but I tried to be nice about it and ask him to impress upon his grandson how completely unsafe it was for him to do that.

The grandfather's response was exactly what this article references;

"If those other warbird pilots can do what they want why can't my grandson?" Then he called me a few expletives and told me where I could stick my safety concerns.

Those warbird pilots he's talking about stand out by the runway in a group of 5 or 10 or so pilots doing low and fast passes driving everyone out of the air while they do it. They just go up and down the length of the runway as fast and as low as they can with little regard for anyone else who is flying. Rather than standing at thepilot boxes they stand in a crowd in the center of the field. The other pilots can call out their intentions all they want but those guys are too far away from the rest of the pilots to hear them so it doesn't matter.

They are an example to younger pilots - they are doing something that looks extremely cool but in reality endangers everyone around them and endangers the hobby as a whole. Fields are lost from noise, and safety the most.

I do my best to not only be a good pilot and push my limits but to be a good example to other pilots. I'm not always successful but I don't expect to be - at least I try. do fly 3D but when I do it I make sure that I do it outside the pattern of regular flight or when the there are far fewer airplanes in the sky to get in the way and I do it beyond the far edge of the runway.

Paternguy

My Feedback: (1)

The low, fast war bird fly bys are exactly the reason I always keep an ARF on hand, I tell them once and then I fire up and fly low high speed passes just at the other side of the runway, this generally gets the point across if the verbal warning didn't. For some reason they don't like the Idea of flying their scale birds in the vicinity of a $100 Arf at high speed right down in front. As my father-in-law always tells m "there are some lessons that you can't learn from a book".Everyone in the hobby has done something stupid at some point and lost a plane or two, these young guys will learn too, as it becomes cost prohibitive to keep buying new planes and equipment.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Hum .................. Safety is your issue. Maybe the next step is to band Glow and Gas motors. You know for safety ................ Here is an write up from another web site i visit time to time.

1. While starting the plane in question they placed their fingers extremely close to the wildly spinning prop that was over 12 INCHES long. Do you realize how often you need your fingers? Do you know how hard it is to reattach a finger after it has been severed? NOT EASY! And yet these !QUOT!RESPONSIBLE!QUOT! men might as well have made playing with lawnmower blades their hobby BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY ESSENTIALLY DO everytime they start or tune a plane!

2. It doesn't stop there. After the motor was spinning at speeds in excess of 9,000 rpm THEY RELEASED THE PLANE! That's right the plane was on the runway with no one holding it. That plane could get a bad signal, the battery could die OR ANYTHING could cause that plane to go out of control just sitting on the runway. RECKLESS??? YOU BET!!!!

3. It gets worse. Now we have a whirling lawnmower blade loose on the world with nothing but a radio signal to control it. Then the guys get a really crazy idea, 'LET'S FLY IT AROUND IN THE SKY!!!! INSANITY!!!
This plane could loose control at any moment. It could get a hit or more likely the pilot could loose it and plow the 5 pound plane into INNOCENT CHILDREN.

I for one will not stand by while these 1 percenters, these RC zealots take not only their lives in their own hands but the whole worlds

I did cut out a few lines from his write up. Lets take it all the way then.

Band all Gas and glow motors.
Band all RC airplanes over 5 pounds.

This is where you are going right? For those of you that get mad about the 1% of the RC flyers that can perform extreme 3D flights, GET OVER IT! I support those who want to learn 3D flight to the Masters of 3D flight.

Are you sure you are not getting upset for these guys taking your thunder away? Maybe you are getting upset over the idea that people are enjoying, watching the extreme 3Ders over your left turning high dollar extremely nice looking airplane.

Get over it and I think that Dave needs to relax and enjoy the whole hobby. I see no AMA rules being broken performing 3D flight as long as you do not fly over the pits. spin flip what ever from the runway out, There is not an issue.

Crash99

submikester

My Feedback: (6)

Yeah Crash - seems like you aren't listening.

I never said that 3D was bad - just do it at a safe distance from other pilots and spectators. In fact; I fly 3D myself but I recognize that *I* do not own the sky and that I must share it with other pilots.

If you can't recognize the true safety issues then you're likely part of the problem if there is one at your field.

Come back to me when you've had to watch or help prevent someone from dieing on the field because of unsafe behavior of a pilot who didn't think us safety nuts had anything worth listening to to say.

submikester

My Feedback: (6)

Also - I never said anything about banning anything. This is a typical trick of someone who has little coherent argument. Confuse the facts with wild and outlandish "what ifs."

The hardware here is not the problem - it's the folks who cannot be safe while using it because they think that they and their equipment is impervious to failure.

Yeah right - and monkeys might fly out of my butt.

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

As far as risk, there is a difference in risking your plane, and risking other people or their property. Part of the rush in this hobby is opening up the envelope of what you can do and what the airplane can do. When you do something risky (risky to the plane) and get away with it, and get comfortable doing it, it's gambling, and learning. It's a rush.

In doing so we have set guidelines within our organization. These guidelines are relatively loose but apply non the less. These guidelines are interpreted a little different by everyone. There are certain acceptable risk and certain non-acceptable risk. The hard part is some of these are hard fast rules (such as the flight line being impenetrable) and some are common sense. If you and your buddy are the only one at the field and you make high speed low passes, no one cares. If you have several people flying at the flight line, move the passes out. Simple judgement; interpreted by everyone differently.

When you operate as a group, within AMA or some other group) you become part of that group and inherently agree to act according to what is acceptable. Should you hover an airplane in the pits, that is against all rules and all common sense. There is no way to ever justify something like that; and to be represented by a manufacturer just rubs salt in the whole thing.

NOW, if you own your own property, with no club, only you (and some friends) you can do what ever you want. If you want to hover a 3d airplane in front of the bedroom window, who cares! If you put the airplane through the front picture glass window, great! your problem, doesn't effect any one else. I have an electric I fly around my house, and around the trees. It's a hoot but I would never do that sort of thing at the field! If you do that at a club field, you are acting as one single part of the club, and the rest in the club will not be happy of its behavior.

Being in a club means you are part of what is acceptable as a whole. This also means (as mentioned here) no one likes a double standard. If you buzz the pilots standing at the flight line, they have the right to hold you accountable; just as if they do it you have the right to hold them accountable. In doing so you become politically involved and how you do that can make the difference between harmony and anarchy. These type of situation handled well make a good club. Our club decided to send out warning letter to 2 people for doing something they felt was wrong; landing in a rough area (on the correct side of the flight line. They over stepped. In doing so we lost 2 members. One member hosted our swap meet. So we lost our swap meet. All in all it wasn't a bad experience because the Gestapo learned a little about politics and our club functions better because of it.

We all fly the airplanes with risk. We fly with risk that is accepted. When something happens we change what is acceptable risk, and change our behavior, our rules and what is acceptable. When we act in a club we all act AS THE CLUB.

And yes, Hossfly, I agree with you 100% on DB article. He was not against 3d, just operating beyond what is acceptable; In the pitts and such. It is obvious he/they have been reading these forums and they are making a statement without naming names; more so to show their position on the whole thing.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

gow589

!QUOT!difference in risking your plane, and risking other people or their property!QUOT! There is no more risk. If the risk was there would be a item in the 2005 safety rules. In fact rule #9 was taken away. It must have been seen as a non issue rule.

I am not saying all 3D flyers are 100% safe. I have read where some fly over the pits. Now in saying that I have had to move from my spot in a fast moving action due to a non- 3D airplane was coming after me. So you can say maybe you should not have any flying over the runway except for take off and landing. But that would not have prevented any of my need to move from my flying spot.

Let the AMA address it. Or you can help make your club less RC friendly by making local rules against these flyers that are taking the thunder away from some. Me I will still try to increase my skill level and fly for the fun of it.

Show me the AMA reports on 3D flying accidents vs prop accidents. Hum ..................................... Let find out where we are on taking risks. I think you will fine out starting you glow or gas planes have the greater risks.

Crash99

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

I can't figure out exactly what you are saying. Seems like a lot of complaining more than anything. I hand prop a 100cc Brison 5.8. I have never even had my hand slapped because I know how to do it. If people get their hands chopped left and right, the rules about props would change. Since it doesn't happen, there are no rules reguarding how you start your plane. How would this really compare to anything. What do you think I said about 3d? What makes you think I am advocating more rules? I really don't understand what your saying or what your logic is. Just a lot of mindless complaining.

submikester

My Feedback: (6)

What I can't understand is why he's defending 3D so much when nobody here is attacking it.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

The whole point is, and has been right along, to get you to think about what you're doing so the AMA doesn't have to "take action." If the AMA has to take action, it's too late. The damage has been done.

Think when you're starting your engine, so the AMA doesn't have to make rules about starting engines.

Think when you're doing 3D, so the AMA doesn't have to make rules about 3D flying.

Yes, random "stuff" happens, but that doesn't mean you can go lollygagging through life with reckless abandon, attributing every accident to random happenstance.

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Most clubs discuss (even if their not official rules) how stuff should be handled as it comes up. The guys that do 3d in our club are supose to go to the far in so it does not disrupt the pattern. No big deal.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

When did the low pass become politically incorrect ? 26 years in the hobby. How did it suddenly become too dangerous ? Does the sound scare people ? Personally, I like to do them knife edge. I guess all of those baby pen recalls and the car seat mania has bled over into the mans world. I like a little danger. But I'm a uncivilized dinosaur.
So you know what I do? I fly during the week when I can have the flight line to myself. I get my thrills and nobody pees on them self.

submikester

My Feedback: (6)

You know what man - I have over 20 years in the hobby myself and I enjoy a heart pounding low inverted flyby (or knifedge for that matter) myself but I Don't do it in a crowded pattern. I do it when there isn't anyone else on the flightline because that's when it's safe for others - Endangering myself is one thing - endangering others is quite another. You're being responsible by flying when other aren't out there and at the same time preserving your good time and I think that's great for the most part.

Still - even then that's the best "bad" example I can provide for others.

I was out yesterday as I think I mentioned and there were only a few of us out - one of them was one of our local crazies and another was a local novice who has really mastered his trainer well. He was doing very nice touch and goes...it was great to see. Well, the crazy is out flying behind the flightline, breaking our altitude limit (we are near an airport) and just generally cutting the fool in a grand old way. He's an extremely good pilot so when he does it, it looks cool and he was out there by himself at the flightline - so that's pretty much fine too I suppose. As he's taxiing back in though the novice goes up to him and says "nice flying."

That comment in and of itself isn't of much concern but it does reinforce that good pilots are examples to novice pilots - it's possible that the novice now thinks that the behavior exhibited by the crazy is acceptible in all circumstances - not just when he's alone on the flightline. This particular crazy will do it regardless of who is in the air and I've seen the younger pilots worship him; it isn't good.

I agree - sometimes our litigious caution really does get in the way of a good time. Having seen the damage even a 40 sized plane can do to a man (cut through a man's thigh like it was butter) I don't mind being safe in my flying.

I think that too much is being read into the comments of the article - taking it too seriously is just as bad as not seriously enough. There is a happy medium; there is a "safe enough" though it is subjective and to be determined by each club I suppose. I don't think they were meant specifically at any style of flying but there is a common relevant example of stupid where that fellow was flying a large airplane in the pits at an event.

Dude - that's stupid - who thinks flying in the pits is acceptable at all anywhere? But he's a good pilot an as such he's an example to those who are less good. Hehappened to be flying 3D - I know a lot of fellows who fly 3D and they are very safety aware.

3d is not the problem - stupid is and has always been.

rcmiket

We have it all at our field...... and we like it that way. Low Passes, Jets , 30%, scale, foamies, 3D, square airplanes the works. Never have a problem if things get outa hand we all deal with it like adults. We have had fingers in the props twice. Due to the "I don't need any help to start my plane" Needless to say if help isn't asked for we give it anyway. We have never had anyone risk anyones life or limb. Moral of the story police yourself and you'll never have a problem. This does not mean people can't do "risky things", we just want to see it, if you get my drift. I think most flyers have heard about this kinda stuff than actually seen it themselves. One more thing we have choppers at our field too , kinda neat when they crash they keep crashing for a while. Go fly and have some fun. Mike

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Dave's write up was anti 3D and other. Flying inverted, low pass flying should never be done around anyone unless that have the same skills. I hate to see any soft attacts to any flying groups.

There must have been a reason for the write up. I am just saying Dave, Leard to love the hobby again and fly for the fun of it. Let the high speed fly by go, Let the 3Ders roll slowly down the runway, Let the warbirds fly inverted if they want. Risky? nope!

Let go play with our toys.

Crash99

submikester

My Feedback: (6)

Whatever man. You clearly are seeing what you want to see and not being objective to other points of view.

It's good to take risks but this hobby is *NOT* and should not be about "tempting fate" with our lives; models are just that but models can hurt people and the fact the you refuse to recognise that shows you're likely part of the problem Dave was referring to.

Mike in DC

You might get better results if you use the OTMOC (One True Method of Communication): "When you do [blank] it makes me feel [blank]". When you use the traditional "You' method, e.g. "You are doing something extremely unsafe", 90% of the time you'll get the answer you got, and the behavior will not change. Instead, try something like, "When you do a fast low pass when I'm at the flight line, it makes it very hard for me to concentrate on my flying." Most people will be more receptive to changing their behavior if you don't frame it as a lack of character, or education, or any deficiency on their part.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Mike you really hit the nail on the head. Calling people Idiots and morons are exactly what idiots and morons do…the irony of reality.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Co and government agency's have spent tons of money on risk mang. The facts, a new flyer is a higher risk than the above. You can not disagree with the facts. We all pay dues, insurance ect. What makes you to have the ability to say you can not do that. Me, I am a CD and unless it is unsafe, nothing needs to be done.

Crash99

d_bodary

My Feedback: (85)

crash 99 you really need to chill out. nothing at all was said about 3D. do you have a guilty conscience? either that or a chip on your shoulder. if you know how to fly responsibly then you should be setting an example at the field that new flyers want to fly as good as you. all you need is common sense you don't need a lecture. i'm sure you have seen it at your field time after time the new flyer just getting his solo wings and learning different manuvers and going over the flight line at full throttle way more than once sometimes crashing into the pits or the parking lot. if you've never seen any of that then you either don't fly enough or your blind. the point is maybe show the new person some of your tricks of the trade. that way when he starts showing off you will have taught him the proper way to get himself out of trouble without endangering others. the low inverted pass always looks cool though.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

What is a low pass anyway ? Under 30 feet ? 10 feet ? 100 feet ? With a rundway 50 feet wide and the pilot stations 30 feet from the runway, is a low pass dangerous ? It could be made 80 feet from any person. Is 50 feet up safer than 80 feet in front of you ?
I don't understand the reasoning.

How about "LANDING".........pause......"MISSED APPROACH".

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

d_bodary

Chip on my shoulder? nope, You don't know me at all. Blind, no I see good. Trainer yep! I have trained many safe flyers. Plane saver? yep 2 yesterday. Now thats out of the way showing a person how to perform and performing (Dave's write up) while the new flyer is around is not the same thing.

I think Dave's write up was a slap at the folks that perform tasks with a upper skill level. Low inverted passes ( Less then 5') Knife edges, any 3D flight should not be look down at but look at the skill of the flyer.

Simply Fly for the fun of it.

Thanks
Crash99