No, it's not the noise. At least, the noise generated by model airplanes is not the reason flying sites are lost. The problem with respect to noise is the number of block-heads who insist their models aren't noisy but who start getting edgy when someone hauls out a noise meter. The problem is also that the hobby, and I do NOT mean AMA, has done little in the way of noise abatement. That's probably because not enough hobby consumers are demanding quieter IC power sources, quieter mufflers, and quieter props. Noise abatement is not only possible, it's relatively easily accomplished. Having said that, the fastest way to induce loud snoring at a club meeting is bring up the subject of noisy models. When everyone wakes up and heads off to fire up their model engines, noise abatement gets lip service if it gets any attention at all.

One of the clubs in which I hold membership has it's flying site across a small river (large creek, whatever you choose. . . ) from a new starter mansion development. Starter mansions. Y'know . . . they look like mansions, cost half a mil, and are three bedroom split level jobbies with truly snooty gingerbread glued on the outside.

One new homeowner started making noise complaints to the 'landlord' - the county water authority. In short order the club modified it's flying pattern, instituted maximum noise limits, and reassured the county and the homeowner that the club will be more active in monitoring noise levels. Every club member is on the mailing list, and the majority are on the e-mail list. Every member was made aware of the problem, particularly when flight ops were suspended for a month while the club figured out how to deal with the problem.

The DAY after flight ops resumed, a blockhead launched his 54%/Zenoah sans muffler and proceeded to intentionally provoke the neighbor.

It's this sort of stupid and arrogant attitude (always a bad combination) that causes the loss of flying sites, not the noise itself.

Noise we can deal with. We know how to do that. AMA can indeed help resolve noise issues.

Blockhead attitudes are something else again.


Exactly. As someone else put it, we're not an island unto ourselves. We live and fly our toys smack in the middle of the rest of the population (and yes, birth control might have worked 50 years ago but at this point in time it'll take another black plague pandemic to resolve that problem . . . ).

Irritating our neighbors is the reason flying sites are lost, pure and simple.

Neighbors become irritated for a number of reasons, and they complain because they are being irritated. Noisy model airplanes is an easy complaint to make, particularly in most jurisdictions which have no noise pollution ordinances and simply react to "too noisy" complaints by prohibiting the activity. It's really easy to pass ordinances against flying model airplanes inside the jurisdiction, as many model aviators have painfully discovered in the past.

Yes, but only if we can figure out a way to convince the blockheads of their condition.

I submitted a lunatic proposal which would enable chartered clubs (read : make sure chartered clubs realize that it is really ok to allow non-members to fly at their flying sites) to welcome newbie park flyers from the community. The resulting program is entirely voluntary (read : >>>is not mandatory<<< ) for the clubs. The non-members would be "allowed" to fly at the site, obtain such help as the club itself is willing to provide, and generally get a look at model aviation as "we" know it, up close and personal without having to shell out for membership in a lunatic hobby which might not be to their liking. The proposal and the resulting program (the proposal was passed by the EC) will cost AMA nothing, it will cost AMA members nothing, and it will cost chartered clubs nothing. The only administrivial load on the clubs is to notify AMA HQ when a non-member begins his month-long 'visit', so the end date for that freebie can be established.

My braine fharte was based on having on more than one occaision been forced to tell Dad and kid that yes, this is the place where model airplanes are flown but no, he can't let his kid fly his new park flyer there without joining AMA. That is what the club rules say (in all three clubs in which I hold membership at present, and in every club I've ever held membership). That scenario is repeated over and over all across the country, because the majority of chartered clubs believe, rightly or wrongly, that they cannot allow non-members to at least "try out" the hobby gratis. That belief is all wrong, and always has been all wrong.

The problem with that ill-gotten notion is that park flyers are something entirely new in the universe of model aviating. Only in the last very few years had Dad been able to snag Jr. a Christmas present which was fully capable of flight after a few minutes' charging time, and at a very reasonable price. In as little as an hour after hauling out the Christmas wrap, Jr. can have his new toy ready to launch.

Whether park flyers is simply a fad is a "don't care". Whether park flyers outnumber AMA members a million to one in a few years is a "don't care". Whether park flyers even manage to discover that there is a flying site right down the road is a "don't care". Whether jurisdictions across the country start prohibiting model airplanes in city parks is a "don't care".

What is NOT a "don't care" is Mr. Dad Taxpayer complaining to his county commissioner about his taxes being used to support a bunch of snobs who are using perfectly good land for their private benefit. That complaint can and has been the death knell for far more chartered club flying sites than most AMA members ever realize.

It's not even truly legal, unless the lease agreement is very carefully written, for the jurisdiction to force taxpayers to join AMA before they are allowed to use public land recreation facilities, but a lot of clubs and a lot of jurisdictions get away with doing so. None of the challenges to that sort of arrangement have ever been defeated by the jurisdiction or the chartered club, to my knowledge.

The proposal and resulting program is nothing more than a way to "allow" clubs to permit non-members to "try out" model aviation, gratis. Nothing more, nothing less.

Alas, the blockhead contingent in AMA are calling for my expulsion from AMA, or termination of my volunteer status, or censure, or some other draconian measures because of this truly simple proposal, which is aimed directly at getting clubs to realize that they operate their public land flying sites at the pleasure of the jurisdiction, which in turn means at the pleasure of the taxpayers. If you don't know it already, taxpayers have MUCH better access to county and city officials than any bunch of model airplane crazies, particularly when a significant portion of those model airplane crazies don't live in that jurisdiction.

Can AMA help ?

Maybe. But probably not until the blockheads among us wake up and see their flying sites being paved with biking paths and start screaming that AMA didn't do anything to help prevent the loss of the site.

AMA only owns one flying site.

"We" simply cannot afford to buy flying sites all across the country. Even if AMA somehow managed to acquire a bunch of flying sites, there is nothing to stop a disgruntled neighbor complaining about some aspect of model aviating ("too noisy" is a sure-fire way to get the attention of a county supervisor) impacting his use of his private real estate, right across the fence.

Even though AMA could, in our hypothetical situation, buy the land, the local jurisdiction can enact whatever ordinance it deems fits to curtail the use of that land thus rendering it utterly useless to AMA. That happens all the time, everywhere. Enough taxpayers make enough complaints, and the activity on the affected parcel gets modified or the activity gets terminated. With the idiotic suspension of private ownership not so long ago by the U.S. Supreme Court, it has become even easier for local bureaucrats to simply take private land away from the owner and hand it over to some developer, on the premise that the community "needs" another shopping mall.

It may be reasonable for a chartered club to buy a flying site in some parts of the country, but enough land to build a flying site anywhere East of The Big Muddy simply costs far more than a chartered club or AMA can conjure up.

It's nice Horrace was able to set up Jetero with a parcel they could buy. Really. The Jetero flying site is a luxury, no question. I wish we had that sort of opportunity down here in hotLanta, but the fact is that land here is so far out of the reach of a model airplane club that the proposition is not workable. Atlanta RC Club was offered the opportunity to buy their existing flying site. No way could 60-odd members cough up 2 million samoleons to buy the land. Utterly impossible in a market where reasonably flat land goes for over 100k per acre and hilly land is two or three times as high (flat land tend to flood all too often around here . . . ).

Buying flying sites may work for the short term in some locales, but I suspect that won't hold true for very much longer, given the birth and immigration rates.

If our hobby is to survive, and I do mean OUR hobby (AMA 'haters' and AMA members together), we have GOT to re-train the blockheads and get them to understand that the vast majority of US manage to keep flying through the good graces of the local jurisdiction (and the fact that the Soccer Mom's haven't discovered our flying sites yet . . .).

Chartered clubs operating flying sites on public lands while nurturing "blockheaditis" by refusing to accomodate the few local residents who would like to 'try out' model aviation, does not sound like a good plan for retaining the use of that site.

But that's just my opinion.

Don't bother telling me what it costs in manpower and bucks to acquire and maintain a flying site. Been there, done that a lot. Been to a considerable number of meetings between clubs which would like to acquire a bit of public land (usually a closed landfill no one else wants) to put up a flying site, and local jurisdictions (mostly parks and recreation departments of counties). Helped a lot of clubs jump bunches of hurdles in getting the counties to allow the club to use the land.

Been to a bunch more flying sites, in North Georgia, which no longer exist because the club simply could not be bothered paying attention to noise complaints, or overflight complaints, or irritated taxpayers who thought is was not ok for private clubs to have exclusive use of public lands.

I never said it was fair that these clubs lost their sites. I never said it was fair that the club has to get and maintain the land, and then turn around and let "freeloaders" use the flying site. It's not fair. I don't think it's fair either, particularly when I spend a weekend every month during mowing season fighting off mosquitos and bees.

On the other hand, if the county water authority decides that the club should have welcomed local taxpayers gratis and didn't, and the site use permit gets terminated, I'll be on the committee looking for a new flying site.

I know what it costs to get and keep flying sites. I know what it costs clubs, and what it costs the members who keep the flying site going. I know how much time it takes the 10% who will work on the site, who will mow the grass, who will paint the shed, who will fix the safety fences, and who will pick up the litter.

I am also pretty sure that not enough AMA members know very much at all about what's involved in getting and keeping flying sites. I'm of the opinion that most members think they've done enough when they pay their annual AMA and club dues, and anything else can be left for George to do, whenever he gets around to it.

I think that's a bit blockhead-ish too, but that's just my $0.37, adjusted for inflation.

Horrace is right that money more than noise loses flying sites. Modelers as an entire group are cheapskates when it comes to putting out money for a place to fly. That is one of the reasons that other activities and housing take over flying sites. they are willing to pay a bunch more for the privelege of being there.
As for purchasing your flying site, that is a state by state and case by case situation. Here in Texas smaller cities have annexed land as much as twenty miles from their current city limits. When the land is sold the new owner can be liable for several years back property taxes based on the city not the county rates. For a housing developer or a golf course developer this is not a big deal as they become pass through costs.
I am a member of one club that has purchased their flying site a few years back. It has gone from being in the middle of open ranchland to now having a house on one side and powerlines erected across the flight path on the other side. Last year we had to negotiate with the phone company as to where they would plow the communication cable and put up the distribution box which now resides on our property.
No easy answers as some of the home owners are finding out when the gas well drill rigs set up within 150' of their new home. What they get in compensation is a joke compared to the lowering of values by having a gas well head in your side yard with the revenues going to some group that has held the mineral rights on your property for the last 50 years..

i definitely have to agree with you. i own three park flyer planes. i bought these all after i learned how to fly on my eagle 2 trainer, however. i think its ridiculous how my club for example gets to use public land for our use yet we have a cap on the number of members thatcan be in our club. we should let everyone join as long as they aren't the blockheads who are going to go out with their old enya or old supretigre powered planes and are flying right over peoples houses. we just need to have more common courtesy. plus the more people who are club members and ama members the better off we all are. there are a bunch of people who fly park flyers right dowm the rad from our site most likely cause of our limit on the number of members allowed in our club and we wonder why certain frquencies dont work sometimes. well, time for me to throw my 10 cents in. i think that the ama should have a reduced rate membership for people who own only park flyer class aircraft seems as these people have the choice between going to the park or flying with us,

I belong to a club in NY and we own our own field, and surrounding fly-over area. We didn't do this overnight - it was a well planned long term adventure. We started by going to the county zoning board, and had this site specifically zoned for the flying of R/C model airplanes, and we didn't spend a penny until it was so approved by the county commission. I'm surprised that none of the above posts mention zoning as a requirement for land purchase. Are we the smartest club in the USA? I know that we are the oldest - organized in 1935, and I have been a member for 65 consecutive years. Has any other club done this? Anybody care to comment?

WOW... Nice post! You may have hit the nail on the head.

I was at a club meeting recently and one of the members (whom I believe is a real AMA advocate) asked the attending members on how to get these park flyers and outlaws to join AMA. He suggested to us if it would be OK for AMA to give them membership at half price for the first year. I had no problem with it however I like your idea better... I would even offer it to them for free until they soloed. You are right, I doesn't cost anyone anything. And if the newbie finds out the hobby/sport wasn't for him then all is not a loss and there are no hard feelings. Also I see that a lot of these so called "outlaws" are experienced pilots who want freedom of choice.

When someone says it's an expensive hobby, I tell them that it costs about $600 for nitro to start from, having nothing, and that also includes club dues and AMA. I then ask them to compare other hobbies and sports costs.... I work part time at a hobby store and encourage newbies to go to a club and get help before they attempt to fly a plane. What I am finding for the most part is that they have a few bucks and a credit card in their pocket, see something and "hard-headedly" say I can do that and I want it, they get it, crash and burn, get pee'd off and then give up right away. If I see that type, of person I try to discourage them from buying a plane and tell them to buy a car instead. For the most part I've been successful. Should we be persistant and force them join AMA too? What could AMA have done for them to prevent that from happening?

Anyway, am I going off topic here?

One local club some years ago lost a field due to complaints of noise, but that was only an excuse used to get the club kicked out. Even the Sherrif deputies who answered the complaints called it bogus. The field was screened from the complaintant's property by over 500' of woods. A personal conflict had developed.
Another local club has lost numerous fields that I know of over the last 30 years. Too many of them want to fly any way they want and rules and common sense be D*****d.
Our club held a field for something like 50 years. We were able to handle complaints about noise, even though it cost a couple of muffler hating members. We eventually lost it to a big bucks developer.
At our new field, the only comment about noise was from a neighbor who heard a poorly muffled large scaale gas job. No complaint (yet), just curious to see what's up.
Noise is only one reason. Sometimes it's only an excuse. Sometimes it's only one of many.
From some of the posts I've read from E-flyers, even the quietness of electric flight, or even gliders, won't overcome careless or dangerous flying. Like when a guy's post brags about laughing at how someone looked ducking his plane as he buzzed them at a park or sports field.

Noise or $$ or another possibility, personalities. These are 3 true stories.

Before I start I am not picking on IMAC, it is just the venue in which they occurred.

1) Mesquite Tx. A long standing club without any problems from neighbors (I was told.) During the Advanced sequence, a pilot did a roller over the neighboring houses (there typically were not any Advanced or Unlimited pilots flying at this particular site), which resulted in a call to the local police or sheriff. In the clubs defense the police didn't believe the complaint until while standing on the neighbors porch another plane (40% or so) was doing a roller over the persons house, again. The officer came to the contest, asked for the CD, explained the circumstance, and the contest was temporarily shut down. The CD explained to all the GUESTS(contestants) the situation. Surprisingly, several of the better pilots said screw that, I'll make my roller as big as I like( they were not members of this club.) Needless to say, after the agrivation began, it couldn't be stopped.

This wasn't noise but the noise is what got the home owner outside to see the plane. Was the field tiny, NO. Was it for $$, NO.

2 years later the flying site was shut down for good.

2) 2000 IMAC Nats. We had been told up to this point, no noise complaints had been filed by the owners of the little farmhouse just off the property. This is with Pylon racing, Control line speed, ect et going on for a number of summers. This was however, the first year IMAC was held at the Nats.
2 Unlimited Pilots in particular had their engines slightly underpropped and the props would make an extremely loud, and this is not the constant drone, barking noise when the engine was full throttled, which in their case was usually only on up-lines. When approached after the complaints neither pilot changed props but said they would try to keep the noise down with throttle control(didn't work)
The other issue is due to the size of the pattern and the planes, a number of us were actually flying over the house(yes I'll admit, I'm as guilty as anyone, trying to win, and the pattern that year was Huge in Advanced.)
Of course AMA is still there, but it is strange that complaints were issued the first year giant scale was flown there.

Was this $$ oriented No. WAs it about courtesy, yes.

3) Conroe Tx(I think, not 100% sure) Their first IMAC contest an ajoining property owner complained about the noise for the first time (again is what I was told) Numerous Pattern contests had been held. Because of the problems, no contests are held there now, although the field is still open (again, what I've been told) The conditions the club had to make to keep the field was to not have ANY contests.
Was this $$ oriented, again NO. Was noise the cause, Yes.

Before all the IMAC guys come hunting for me, this was all what prompted Wally Pitts and IMAC to begin a huge noise survey and trying to prevent this above.

What was found was this;

1) Prop noise carries a lot further than the pilot at the field realizes. Wally was at a field when a ripping prop on a 40% was flying, so he hopped in his car and could still hear the prop over 1 mile away, with a decernable measurement on his DB meter.
2) There is no good/repeatable way to measure aircraft noise while sitting on the runway!!!!! Any ground noise limitation can be faked (lower full throtttle setting with a switch) and prop noise is different in the air. I had a 37% Extra, 3w 150 with a 3 blade prop that on the ground was measured at 107DB, however in the air, most came up to me and were amazed how quiet it was. By the same token, others that were quiet on the ground, could be heard a long way from the field.
3) Still, to this day, regardless of what good flying more quietly would help with, a number of pilots in different disciplines are unwilling to try to fly quietly. It didn't matter what IMAC did to try to help it's situation, many refused to cooperate and local contests simply didn't enforce any noise rules.

The last portion is what happened here in Lubbock. We fly at Reece Technology Center (old airforce base.) The nearest house is over 1/2 mile from the runway, and we flew farther away than the nearest runway. At my job, I was talking with a guy, telling him my hobby to which he got very upset. He stated that since the airforce base had shut down, the IRRITATING noise caused by our models was tremendously disturbing to him, compared to the noise full scale jets made. This really baffled me, but then caused me to start thinking. A 40size plane going here, there loops wahhh wahhh wahhhh can be very irritating compared to the constant growl of noise from an interstate. I remember as a boy, hearing a Fox 35(unmuffled back then) from control line, being very distinct a mile away because you could hear the sound change as the plane flew in its CL circle.

Trying to be objective and look at both sides, noise is a huge problem, most don't/won't address. Consider also, the number of clubs that have an award for first flight on the new year. Neighbors, sleeping, hung over, wake to a whine whirrrrrr wahhhhhh at 0630 on a holiday. Think about it.

Just my $.02 worth.

ed

WOW!!! that is a great idea. well i live in rhode island we have this saying, virginia is for lovers rhode island is for lawyers so i imagine we could get this written up somehow. that is a great idea though for any club that is thinking about buying land. ne question though, does that mean that even if you ever do get a noise complaint then your safe.

All good points,
My humble opinion is: The people that are complaining do not find our Hobby/Sport NECESSARY. There could very well be a small airport in the vicinity with full scale aircraft doing what they do. Weedwhackers buzzing in the neighborhood, as well an occasional Harley rumbling up the street.
Some find this more necessary than grown men flying their toys which in their mind are not a product of practical means. Couple this with the fact that we tend to be a introverted group, looking from the outside in. Of course we know that not to be the case.
My 2 Pennies

Spot on. Unless someone else has an immediate and practical solution, RC aeromodeling is most definitely on borrowed time. For many years now I've offered AMA a possible means to a solution, but it seems the folks at AMA headquarters are much too smart or dare I say arrogant to listen to one of their members. Or perhaps they have a better idea and if so, they had better get going as the population grows, so do those who have no use for our great hobby/sport, noise or no noise.

CCR

2cents:
There is no real solution, even buying the land can still get restricted by complaint, and now they can even Eminent Domain the field away from you for another precious Housing Tract. To borrow a phrase from the gun owners-
When they outlaw flying, only outlaws will fly

It is a sad day when the BLM land out in NOWHERE can't be flown on

Maybe some clubs just give in too easily. Maybe we should remember that we’re the ones being kicked out and perhaps we should stop being so nice about it. It may be that the town has a curfew on noise between 10:00 pm and 8:00 am, for example, and no other ordinance that affects model planes. It may be that such an ordinance would take a long time to pass and result in legal fees that the complainers would not be willing to pay for. I think the ideal solution for us would be that a club member is the land owner and leases to the club. If anyone complains, he could just say “Hey, these are my friends and we’re flying – now get lost”.

We just lost a flying field because the new property owner was not happy about the noise but also had several other complaints that made him seem quite “territorial”. Fortunately, we live in a rural area and have our pick of several sites from land owners who want us there. I live in a newer development where each house has about an acre, yet I’m still known as the noisy neighbor. I don’t run model engines at my house. I wouldn’t do that to the neighbors, but yet I’ve had Cops come to the door for stuff I do inside my own home (mostly related to my other hobby of collecting guitars and amps). Generally, the Cop says “Look, you’re not breaking any laws but…..”. That’s when I stop him and say “well if I’m not breaking any laws…..”

Now a 100-watt vacuum tube amplifier pumps as much adrenalin as any of my model planes do but when the sound is just background noise off in the distance, I don’t think either one is any more annoying than the constant drone of a lawn mower running next door for the two hours or so that it takes to mow an acre. But I’ve got them beat there too – my garden tractor is a 1972 all-metal monster that’s a bit louder that most of the newer ones – and it’s going to stay that way. I guess I’m just getting sick of all the sniveling about noise.

I'm also sick and tired of the AMA and al these RCers who are giving in to the noise issue. Its not the noise, its the attitudes of the flyers.

RC planes are not any noiser than any of the other toys and equipment used in Urban America. It is ironic that the same people who complain about the noise our planes make are driving tractors, bulldozers, Harleys, leaf blowers, chain saws, generators, so on and so on. however, when we are first approached by a complainer, we either put up our guards or roll over and be totally submissive. This is a give / give situation. Noise is not the cause, it is the attititudes.

All the other noises that some are saying is much louder is SEEN as a NECESSARY noise to accomplish a task or job.

Our noise accomplishes NOTHING to anyone and as such should be STOPPED.

PLUS. Our noise is all evening weekdays, Saturday and SUNDAYS.

Do you keep your mouth shut when a SUPER LOUD rapper car is blasting 1,000 watts in your town?

Same ending.

--------

Ever wonder why the RC car people have their tracks in the middle of towns with NO problems ?

No one cares about the QUIET, LITTLE and non-threatening cuties. [sm=thumbup.gif]

now someone mentioned something about imac planes flying over peoples houses. until i met someone who flew model airplanes i thought that a radio control plane was something that you bought and wal mart flew maybe once and crashed, most people dont have any clue about the capabilities of our aircraft so they get scared when they see one flying over their house and they get scared cause its the unknown to many of then and our beloved planes are therefore "dangerous". even thought we know they arent many of them think they are. others just think we dont have a purpose like you mentioned and therefore we make useless noise. i think that as a gneral rlue we just be careful and dont fly right over these peoples houses making tons of noise. i know its alot harder then it sounds. if they arent curtous to you though then that is a whole different story. also, some soccermom might see your field and say, well, my kid should be able to play soccer there instead of those lunatics flying those planes there and boom, ou lost your flying field, i wouldnt mind seeing the statisics though. by that i mean how many new flying fields we get a year compared to how many we lose a year.

Hi Ron.

Let's review.

Your description of OUR club's site is reasonably accurate, although you did forget the canyon that is a few hundred feet to the north of our runway which has several homes in it.

You also neglected to mention that the discussion of noise arose at our recent club meeting where a misguided move by the president of the club was made to modify the club rules without authorization, specifically, attempting to remove the 8:30 start time for anything other than gliders and electrics.

It was then that you got boisterous, expressing your opinion that the restriction should be removed. It was then that I asked you if you knew what the number one reason for clubs losing fields is. When your mouth hung open, making your lack of knowledge on the subject obvious, I told you it was noise.

The fact that the woman who most often complained of noise has recently moved from the canyon is inconsequential in the long run.

Now, here you are, expressing your opinion that what I told you was bunk.

I don't expect you to know who Wes De Cou is, nor do I expect you to understand the workings of the AMA... in spite of the fact that I helped Carl L., who in turn helped you to acquire AMA CD status. Never the less, you may find Wes's words and authority here:

*****
January 2006 issue, page 156, 5th paragraph, Model Aviation Magazine, Flying Site Assistance, Wes De Cou:

“The number one reason for the lack of or loss of flying facilities is the perception held by site owners, local public officials, and local residents, that model aviation is an inherently noisy activity.”
*****

You can find similar words in most issues of MA in the monthly Flying Site Assistance section which Joe Beshar and Wes alternate writing monthly.

Another minor matter. What I said at the meeting was that the AMA Marketing Committee was considering ways to recruit park flyers, including a reduced price membership. I then asked for any comments from the club members. I did not ask for my information, but to forward to some on the EC what was said. If, in the future, you choose to repeat what I say, see if you can't get it right, please. There is a link in this forum to that proposal... I doubt you will take the time to find it or read the proposal of the committee.

I will see you at the next meeting or at the field. I won't respond further here.

JR

WOW... Welcome to the discussion Jean (JR) it's all yours now.... Go tell them..... Sorry, but I find it's just not worth discussing it with you after you flaming me like that...... You always have something derogatory to say about what I post... See you... whenever.

By the way folks, just for the record, I became a CD on my own. I researched and wrote the test on my own. I was a CD before the other members became CD's in one of the clubs I belong to and I helped them others get theirs...... If there was any outside influence outside of this, I am truly unaware, but I thank-you for your help. I had members of the club JR was referring to and JR, ask me if I had my CD to sanction an event I was planning for them, sooo..... if they did not know I had it, how could they have helped me. And yes, I do know Wes De Cou and have spoken to him on the phone about acquiring a new air field at the Corona Airport should it be closed by the Army Corp of Engineers, seeing as we very soon may loose ours to housing and golf courses.

Anyway, I don't have a personal axe to grind with anybody and somehow I've gotten off topic. Please accept my apology.

*****
January 2006 issue, page 156, 5th paragraph, Model Aviation Magazine, Flying Site Assistance, Wes De Cou:

“The number one reason for the lack of or loss of flying facilities is the perception held by site owners, local public officials, and local residents, that model aviation is an inherently noisy activity.”
*****
This is a good quote..... Does everyone agree that it's really not a noise problem, although perceived as noise problem, so as to justify their actions for taking our fields away for an ulterior motive such as MONEY, MONEY, MONEY?

How can we stop that? I read from some of you that purchasing our field might be the answer. Some of you are saying promoting this as more of a sport than a hobby would make us more well known. I agree with that but how does that help us make the communities happy and become our friends? How does that make the so called "Soccer Mom" happy?

I have found that it is difflcult to hear most models from more than a half mile away of course noise can be
a factor in fields being lost but I dont think it is the main reason.

I think it has more to do with the rapid building boom at least here in southern calif for one and also
liabilty concerns by the land owners second.

Most of the traditional model engines are difficult to hear past a 1/2 mile under most conditions. However, the Community College I have taken many courses at is almost a mile from our previous field. One day as I was getting into my car at the front parking lot, the farthest from the field, I noticed a faint engine sound. Someone was flying a Zenoah powered plane with what was claimed to be a stock muffler. I didn't bother going to the back lot where I might have been able to see the plane.
Some days later, several of us were discussing the noise of the engine with the plane owner. The engine in question was tied down and running at idle. He wasn't too happy when I pointed out we couldn't hear the ST 60 being run up at full throttle right next to it.
Our club has a sound level meter which I occasionally check against my company's lab standard. One day I brought it out to see what a Quadra powered plane with a Byron muffler mount measure. It was almost 105 dba on the ground, and at a distance of about 100' and 40' altitude, about 125 dba. That's loud. I was very happy to hear that IMAC has started enforcing sound level limits, even if they seem to be higher than the AMA recommendations. It's a start. It's hard enough someimes to keep a field, but even harder when people don't want to accept facts.
Noise can be a problem. And in our part of the country, flying fields are becoming scarce.

A update on my statements about the SMALL, CUTE, QUITE rc cars.

I checked the sport and have found they are following rc planes by building BIGGER rc cars and trucks with bigger engines.

We have not learned that bigger is noiser and more profits per sale.
The other rc types are now trying to catch up to us in size and noise.

The sad part is that money and profit on a sale rule the destruction of any hobby.

PWC on the water is TOTALLY banned in some waters.

Get the noise AND size way down or lose it all forever.

Where is the AMA on this point ? Busy trying to bend the exemptions even higher.

Most are bussiness people interested in sales and profits.

I know this post will not appear, but at least the Moderator can get a realistic ear full.

I understand that model aviation is officially recognized as a sport in England. This means that model aviation has a right to sport facilities the same as the soccer mom. When talking with a local authority for permission to practice model aviation, best talk about the sport of model aviation. No reason they should support your hobby.

I's been said, somewhat in jest, that with urbanization, environmental concerns, etc. at sometime in the future electric control line will be the only permitted outside model aviation activity. there is beginning to be a fair amount of interest in electric in CL circles. As you all know, our Model Aviation Editor, Bob Hunt, made our Precision Aerobatic team for the next CL World Champs flying a glow airplane converted to electric.

World championships--sounds pretty sporty to me.

The IMPBA (R/C boat racing) just passed a rule to reduce the noise levels. Max level is 92db. This will probably go even lower in a couple years.

Flying fields should be far enough away from residences (and even some businesses) that a well-muffled glow engine should be just background noise at worst. Like the humming of interstate traffic at about the same distance, considering that the traffic goes on all night and our models do not. At such a distance, I don’t buy the argument (just anther excuse) that it’s the high-pitched sound of a glow engine that drives people crazy. They just don’t sound the same as they do up close. If the noise is any worse than this, there will eventually be trouble, even if you had the blessings of the neighbors and the landowner. Some complainers are bothered by noise while other mean-spirited ones just don't like to see anyone having any fun.

Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable people on this forum can advise if the AMA has ever gone to bat for us noisemakers. I believe they should but I suspect that these issues never get to the legal stage. We give in because noise is a powerful argument (or a very influential excuse) and there’s not a lot you can do if the landlord kicks you out for any reason. There are laws in place and I wonder if we don’t break them, then maybe we can use them to our advantage in a handful of rare cases just to gain a victory here and there and perhaps establish precedence.

Everyone has their annoyances but sometimes I think we should just buck-up and try to get along. I like stargazing and light pollution bugs me. I even have the bumper sticker. I’ve read about proposals to limit light pollution in astronomy mags but do I expect a federal law that makes towns shut down their street lights or shopping malls to darken their parking lots? Not likely. Coincidentally, the flying field that we just lost has a huge quarry (which is also somewhat noisy even at night) next door. It’s about eight miles from my house but when I look across the valley, I can’t make out the buildings but a good chunk of the sky glows yellow from the quarry lights. I would tick me off even more if it didn’t look so cool. I guess that makes me a tolerant person whose is just tired of walking on eggs.