fliers1

Giving the matter some thought and one should realize that if a the non modeler neighbor complains and goes to his fellow non modeler neighbors and if he feels it's necessary, he or she files a formal complaint to local authourities, the vastly outnumbered RC fliers won't have a leg to stand on.

The only possible solution I can see and I know it's been brought up before, is to make attenpts to get as many of the local residents and/or their kids into the hobby. What I'm talking about is not a half hearted (I'd like to use a different word) effort, but make an endless crusade to bring in the locals, including local and even national government officials into the hobby/sport. Someone, must know someone, who knows someone who can persaude any of those mentioned to come out to the field, and not just the one beginner day, but try to make certain that an instructor WILL be there to give the VIP and/or neighbor adult and/or kids some convincing instruction. RC aeromodeling safety in numbers.

CCR

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

Folks............................the laws around here governing noise are not subjective. There are specific decibel levels that you may not exceed at the edge of your property.

Most mufflers are rated at 90db at 3 meters.

The decibel level drops off rapidly with distance. Find out what the legal limit is in your area and check the noise level at your property line.


Its easy to do.

the-plumber

While that may be true in your area, it is not the norm.

Only a fraction of locales have subjective noise ordinances. Most don't have _any_ noise ordinances, with the result that "too noisy" is taken for granted and the activity is curtailed without benefit of appeal.

It is quite rare that both sides of a "too noisy" complaint are heard, and even more rare for a meaningful and enforceable ordinance to result from the confrontation.

fliers1

The sound of our engines is music to the RC aeromodeler, but just irritating noise to the non modeler. I friend of mine has 100 acres of his own land to fly on, but a grouchy neighbor who just loves to find new things to complain about, went out his way to make life miserable for my buddy. My friend use to fly glow powered planes, but kept getting phone calls complaints from his grouchy neighbor. So just to keep the peace, he just flew electrics and sail planes on his property.

Guess what? Even though there was no noise to complain about, the grouchy neighbor saw the planes, continued making complaining phone calls to not only my buddy, but also to everyone he could think of in the neighborhood and the local government officials. Since no one else was in the hobby, they just went along with the grouch and tried to (unsuccessfully) legally get my buddy to stop flying anything even though it was on his own property. Noise? I don't think so. BTW, this is not just an isolated incident.

CCR

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

If you use your distance criteria then a whole lot of fields are going to have to shut down. As people move further and futher from city centers, fields and residences are going to get closer and closer. I agree that there are some mean-spirited people, but there are many more who start out tolerant, but are pushed over the edge after several years of the irritating whining of model engines.
I certainly hope the AMA does not go to bat for noise makers. We should ALL be looking for ways to reduce noise so we can piss off less people. The more we ignore this problem, the more anti-noise legislation you will see.
Yes, we should. Since it's very obvious that the noise from our hobby bothers some people we should do what we can to reduce the noise.
Funny you should mention that. I live in a subdivision that's fairly rural. When I attended the first annual home owner's association meeting one of my neighbors was trying to convince us to install street lights. I was one of the many people who brought up light pollution and politely suggested that if he wanted street lights perhaps he would be better off moving to a less rural location.

the-plumber

Not so.

Few 'leaf blowers' have engines equivalent to a G-62. Most are closer to a G-23, arguably less 'noisy' than a 62. Moreover, the noise parameters are vastly different because the leaf blowers (and string trimmers, and hedge trimmers, and chain saws) have considerable more noise-dampening mass than do models. Additionally, the noise of the string or hedge cutter or saw blade doesn't come anywhere near that of a 20-odd inch prop where the tips are near (or higher than) supersonic speeds.

"Harley's" are an icon, the whole world expects a hog to be noiser 'n 'ell, and can simply put up with the noise 'til the beast roars off into the distance. Models don't roar off into the distance, they go 'round and 'round and 'round with accompanying dopler shifts, in and of itself more than a bit annoying to non-involved neighbors.

Generators are still an oddity, and almost any lawnmower or garden tractor produced in the last decade will have remarkably low noise levels because manufacturers have paid attention to the demands of the buying public for quieter engines. My 15 year old Crapsman mower has been transmongrified into a backyard-model-trailer-puller-outer, and with the OEM muffler in good shape I need to wear "Mickey Mouses" on the odd occaision that I fire the old beast up. The chartered club has a two-year-old Crapsman 24 horsepower mower with a twin cylinder engine, and the noise level from that mower is amazingly low, even with the three decks running.

RC planes, by and large, _are_ noisier than most other outdoor power products in use today. The only saving grace we enjoy is that our flying sites are generally somewhat remote from neighboring houses.

Until 'we' overfly the neighbor's house and subject the neighbor to a G-62 less than 150 feet away.

Have you actually read [link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/site/product.aspx?id=8AE089F52A9F473D85F2D700A74045E8&d=7CCD22D1AB41442384BA7EFFC735EBCC]"Sound and Model Aeronautics"[/link] ?

There is a lot to be learned about the noise our models make, and a number of practical measures to help reduce it.

Personally I think it should be required reading for club officers, if not all modelers who use IC power sources.

the-plumber

I DO NOT AGREE that the problem for us to solve is MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.

Model engine noise is one of several problems facing the hobby. We need to reduce the noise levels. That 'too noisy' complaints can lead to the loss of a flying site >>>is the fault of the folks using the flying site<<<.

Model engine noise is not only a problem, it is a major problem because "we" haven't corporately done very much at all toward reducing the amount of noise our engines make. Too many blockheads running around without a leash (or a decent muffler).

It's not the pursuit of money that causes flying sites to sprout jogging tracks and a 19th Tee, although the pursuit of money does sometimes result in trampelled liberties.

Successfully dealing with the money aspect of converting flying sites to golf courses won't stop flying sites being lost. Money is never a satisfier, rather it is only a dis-satisfier, where the usual discussion is salaries - "enough" salary never stops an employee walking out the door in favor of a new job elsewhere, while "not enough" salary serves as an automajik exit door opener.

"Soccer moms" will never be satisfied with having the most glamorous soccer field in the Known Universe, they'll only be 'not dis-satisfied' when every square foot of non-shopping-mall land has stripes and backstops. Meaning that there is no rational way to deal with "soccer moms", and the only way to head them off at the pass is with numbers - number of soccer fields in the jurisdiction versus number of flying sites, and so on.

Between the two 'problems', i.e. "too-noisy" model airplanes, and "we could make more money if that flying site had eighteen holes and a club house with a bar", the only one we have a reasonable chance at solving is the noise problem.

It would be nice if we could figure out a way to prevent land values from increasing, but they're not making that stuff any more so it's a seller's market.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

You have limits in Marietta Geargia, don't you ?

7am til 11pm 65 db at the recieving property line
11pm til 7am 60 db at the recieving property line

Thats what your city's web site states.

Epoxy Moxy

My Feedback: (3)

Well, A good start in my mind, would be if there are no noise ordinances in your respective area, would be to present your borough or township with EPA or FTA sound level standards for areas equivalent to the area your are flying and let them know you are modifying your aircraft to those standards. At the very least it would show the community that your club is earnest in it's attempt to be a solution rather than a problem to the situation involved. Possibly when the one or two who complain to the community council or whoever, your club might be looked at in a more favorable light.

abel_pranger

PilotFighter-

Glad you pointed that out. Actually, those figure are a bit more liberal than typical. Most localities that have objective levels specified in the ordinances say 55 dBA for residential and other noise sensitive locations (schools, hospitals, libraries, for example) during daytime hours, and usually 5-10 dB less during 'sleeping' hours. Figures in the range you cited are okay in commercial and industrial zones. These are the levels recommended by agencies charged with environmental quality, including HUD, ANSI and internationally, ISO. The well drafted ordinances specify an "equivalent" level to cover intermittent sources, which is the average level over some integration period, usually one hour.
Objective levels in the codes and ordinances is a good thing for us, when we take the time to learn what they are and observe them. I have been involved in more than one dispute over noise complaints, and haven't lost in any. All it takes is gathering the data to show that your operations produce sound levels within what the law allows.
Many backwater municipalities still have prohibitions against 'loud, unnecessary and unusual noises' however, and there you are at the mercy of what side side of the bed the individual standing in judgment of your activity got up on. In CA, Los Angeles county has such a subjective ordinance. Moving South, Riverside County has no noise ordinance on the books and so complaints are are handled under general nuisance provisions, i.e., subjective judgement again, and you have to get to San Diego County before finding reasonable, objective Codes and Ordinances re noise that follow state and federal guidelines for such.
At any rate, I'd have say that if you don't know what the law is regarding noise in the locality where you fly, you certainly can't demonstrate that you have taken actions to be compliant with it. If that's the case, then yes, a noise complaint could well be the end of your club's flying site. ('your' used generically - PilotFighter clearly knows this)

Abel

archerry

My Feedback: (6)

Of all the people I know in modeling, I don't personally know anyone who runs without a muffler except the turbine guys and they fly only at airshows and in BFE. The clubs I belong to are very good to enforce this. On the other hand the real noise that can't be controlled is the prop noise and I really don't think anything can be done about that. I have several electrics and one of them (an A10 with twin 4x4 props) is louder than a .25 size swinging a 9x6 prop when fully spooled up. I have a sailplane, when on final, that the air whizzes over the wings quite loudly.

So now it's out, I'm a noise maker. What can I do about those inherent noises? I know I'll just give up the hobby, sit in my quiet home, watching TV, with a beer in my hand, or better yet go down to the local peeler bar with my new buddies. Either way I'm doing something worthless and everyone is happy because I'm not making any noise. And the community will be even more happy because I'll be giving some poor stripper the money to go to college. The epitome of LIBERAL HYSTERIA folks........

the-plumber

Alas, there are no flying sites in Marietta. I live in Eastern Cobb County, and the Marietta location refers to my mailing address. I probably should change the profile.

I hold membership in clubs which operate flying sites in Cobb, Bartow, and Dekalb counties.

Of the three, only Cobb has a noise ordinance and it is prototypical of noise ordinances, replete with terms like annoying, excessive, unnecessary, and so forth. Not one qualitative parameter anywhere other than distances (auto radios are too loud if they can be heard 50' away).

Bartow and Dekalb have no noise ordinances that I have ever found.

skerrin

Abel,

I take no exception to your analysis as we both have a dog in this fight. We have performed the appropriate surveys and documented same. The following is quoted from the San Diego County Code of Regulatory Ordinances to show that noise or even the perception of noise is seen as a major threat to quality of life here. I have to believe that similar words are on the books (or will be) elsewhere.

SEC. 36.401. PURPOSE AND INTENT.

The Board of Supervisors of the County of San Diego finds and declares that:

(a) Inadequately controlled noise presents a growing danger to the health and welfare of the residents of the County of San Diego;

(b) The making and creating of disturbing, excessive, offensive or unusually loud noises within the jurisdictional limits of the County of San Diego is a condition which has persisted and the level and frequency of occurrence of such noises continue to increase;

(c) The making, creation or continuance of such excessive noises which are prolonged or unusual in their time, place and use effect and are a detrimental to the public health, comfort, convenience, safety, welfare, and prosperity of the residents of the County of San Diego;

(d) Every person is entitled to an environment in which the noise is not detrimental to his or her life, health, and enjoyment or property; and

(e) The necessity in the public interest for the provisions and prohibitions hereinafter contained and enacted is declared to be a matter of legislative determination and public policy and it is further declared that the provisions and prohibitions hereinafter contained and enacted are in the pursuance of and for the purpose of securing and promoting the public health, comfort, convenience, safety, welfare, prosperity, peace and quiet of the County of San Diego and its inhabitants.

A subjective nuisance can, however, be declared in the absence of a properly documented sound survey:

SEC. 36.414. GENERAL NOISE REGULATIONS. (of the San Diego County Code of Regulatory Ordinances

(a) General Prohibitions. In the absence of objective measurement by use of a sound level meter, additionally it shall be unlawful for any person to make, continue, or cause to be made or continued, within the limits of said County, any disturbing, excessive or offensive noise which causes discomfort or annoyance to reasonable persons of normal sensitivity residing in the area.

It goes on to list the various transgressions. Bottom line is that no club or flying field is immune to attack on the basis of noise. Even though we enforce 90 dB at 9 feet and we have documented sound surveys at the boundaries, an attack could still be mounted that we could not afford to fight.

We have successfully fought off complaints in the past. Recently, a developer has begun to build some $million-plus hovels within a half mile of the field. I hope they are well insulated and the patios are on the west side.

SK

50+AirYears

As an afterthought, one of the things that helped our club keep the older field for so many years, besides being willing to work with the neighbors when there was a complaint, was that the city in which we had the field had a 65dba at the nearest point to the complaintants property line. We bought a sound level meter, did some tests with several models, estalished that the worst sound level we generated in worst case was 67 dba. We ended up rotating the field about 8 degrees, got our sound level at the P.L. to 64, changed our starting time from 8:00 AM to 9:00 AM, and had no more complaints.
Also, we determined some major fuel for the fire we extinguished there was a couple hotheads with chips on their shoulders who "weren't going to be pushed around!" It was almost harder to control them than to make the adjustment.

cyclops2

It can be a case of we are the enemy, if fliers who have to have loud planes are allowed to fly after the first offense.

There really is no reason to even let this happen.

Vote the problem out of the club.

Wings of Peril

[I certainly hope the AMA does not go to bat for noise makers. We should ALL be looking for ways to reduce noise so we can piss off less people. The more we ignore this problem, the more anti-noise legislation you will see. ]ORIGINAL: piper_chuck

Supporting its members should be a primary function of any organization and for each of us; failure to stand behind your fellow modelers is short-sighted and ultimately could be a bigger show-stopper than caving in to every complainer-or not giving up on IC engines completely. I happen to like high performance sport planes and always use a muffler but we also have to think about our brethren who enjoy even noisier models like racers, gassers, large scale, helicopters, turbines and even surface vehicles if we want the hobby and the industry to remain healthy.

Soon or later, if it hasn't happened already, there will be a noise-related issue where all club members are obeying all club rules, all AMA rules, all laws and local ordinances and are not automatically being ejected by the landlord. Perhaps it's public land with an established flying field. Is it not worth fighting for and a good word from the AMA?

archerry

My Feedback: (6)

I find this very interesting. I've been going through the main topics of every thread here in the AMA discussions and find that this topic has come up before several times in different words and the same answers are given every time..........

My point and conclusion is that there is no way to solve it and results of asking will be the same every time some one asks..........

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results.... My time is a waisting.....

fliers1

IMHO, the only possible solution, which is creating a safety in numbers factor, something I have mentioned many times, but have been totally ignored everytime. Matter of fact, AMA has been trying with their http://www.modelaircraft.org/ambassador.asp but that too has been all but ignored for going on 6 years now. I suggested to AMA to make that link easier to see, but that too was ignored.

As it is now, one club loses it's flying site and then its members join another one...the result is another over crowded flight line. It is clear that growth is the RC industry's medicine and the club member's poison. Then again, no one likes the idea of having to wait an hour or so just to get one flight in because of having a large active membership.

The other thing would be to try to get local and national government officials interested in our hobby/sport. Nice to have people in high places on our side. As far as the noise situation is concerned, I seriously doubt that if there is anything practical that anyone can or will do.

CCR

cyclops2

Sounds correct to me. []

Why isn't the AMA and the BIGGiES in all RC hobbies REALLY doing something about ??

Bussiness people have NO alligence to anything.

They just switch to a different product that is in demand.
Nothing strange about them keeping the profits up and their doors open is there ?

I would not think so if I worked for one of them.

MODELERS AND PILOTS HAVE TO BAND TOGETHER and get the job done.

It is totally our problem and we need to correct it. []

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

Supporting fitting in with the local community and standing up to unfair restrictions, yes. Supporting the small percentage of people who insist on exercising their right to do whatever the heck they want, absolutely not. AMA should encourage fitting in with the rest of society, not coddling people who never figured out how to get along with others. People in other countries are often under much more strict noise limitations than us, but amazingly, they still manage to have just as much fun.

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

There are mufflers and then there are mufflers How often do you hear about people removing the baffles from their mufflers? How many people get after market mufflers that end up making the engine louder? I don't run gassers in my planes, but the ones I see, and hear, at the field are way louder than my weed eater or leaf blower.

Clubs that are close enough to residential areas would do well to enact, and enforce, clear noise limits, rather than just saying all planes need mufflers, before it becomes a problem. If some of the members have planes that can't be quieted, such as turbines, perhaps they could work with the neighbors to define reasonable times for operating them.

cyclops2

Piper chuck. Your first paragraph is the solution.

Your 2 nd paragraph walks all over the first.

It always comes down to giving problem planes and pilots equal rights.

Hossfly

"High Performance sport models" whatever that may mean, with the best muffler will be a _ell of a lot noiser than any turbine I have ever witnessed and that includes a fair number since I witnessed Jim Allen and his fellow engineers demonstrate their homebuilt, which I believe to be the first one ever flown in the USA, in the Mesa AZ area back in the late '80s.

Piper there are large electrics with propeller noise exceeding most turbines. When I was preparing to see my first turbine fly (see above) I was expecting something close to those old Dyna-Jets -- pulse jets -- that we flew in CL many years ago. They sounded like a ship's fog-horn. NOT SO with the turbine even the early ones. Very quiet. As a 1-1 scale jet pilot for some 41 years, I was, and still am amazed at the quietness of model airplane turbines.


Now if we could lobby AMA into forgetting this silly "Turbine Waiver" for even just the the turbines on the big sport-trainer models, then maybe more people would start flying turbines and the noise problems may be far less.

Actually that's a joke, as when I was a DVP back in '79-82, there were problems concerning "Noise" with strictly-glider clubs.
People see a model airplane -- it just has to be noisy -- so get rid of it. You know like the mind-sets in these forums about clubs / independents / AMA / non AMA / the small electric people with their persecution complex, and a number of others. Maybe that stems from the old "keep up with the joneses" complex so instilled in urban society. Everyone wants to be "jones" and have everyone else do as jones does.
20 years from now, those flying RC will be those that went out and made things happen for their own locale. Those waiting for AMA and/or local government to provide something will still be waiting.

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

Huh? I thought my first paragraph was the problem and the second, part of the solution. Oh, wait a minute, do you mean my first post and my second post?

There is no such thing as a "problem plane", only problem pilots. None of us have a right to make so much noise that it disturbs others. Many who have attempted to flaunt this imagined, but in reality, non-existant right have discovered how unimportant our hobby is to many people.

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

Turbines were just an example. Your comment about large electric prop noise is the reason why decibel measurements are better than vague rules about mufflers. However, the first time I saw a turbine, a fairly recent model, it was at speed and I was quite a distance from the flight line. It was way louder than the typical glow powered sport plane. Additionally, I imagine that the increased speeds of these planes create additional fear in the minds of the public. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't want to cause this thread to branch off into a discussion on the risks (real or imagined) of turbines.

The IMPBA (I mentioned them before) learned about the hazards of noise with respect to loss of ponds and is moving in the right direction. Several years ago they implemented a complicated set of rules about muffling the tuned pipes that nearly all racers use. As long as people had a "muffler" on their tuned pipe, they met the rules. Guess how long it took for people to figure out their way around this one? The net result was noise was not reduced. The funny thing was that an unmuffled .21 size boat was way quieter than a muffled .80 size, but the .21s still had to have mufflers. Enough people finally started seeing the light and the rules are now being simplified to the point where it doesn't matter how you get the noise down, as long as the boat is below 92db at a certain distance, everything is fine. Some of the European organizations have even stricter limits, and I suspect IMPBA will lower the number again in a couple more years.