"Just make sure you always have a pal or two as spotters as a resposible StreetFlyer:
"Car Car Car! Waive Off!"

Reminds me of Wayne's World.

"Car!"
"Game On"

You’re suchhhh a tease!

The hopes you generated were just tooooo much to ignore. But, alas, as happens all too often, talk and no answers.

Rats!

Now the hopes are dashed.

Woe is me.

Fred-

Not sure who Ron was referring to, but the 'right' answer has to be DB hisself. AMA had a sound committee for a number of years. All AMA committees serve at the pleasure of the AMA prexy. Apparently addressing the issue is just not in accord with his pleasure at this time.

Fliers 1 brought in an important concept regarding how our neighbors perceive us and how it impacts on their tolerance of us and so affects keeping our flying sites. I recall visiting and flying at a club site at Lake Elsinore, CA a few years ago. It is (or was, not sure if it's still there) in the midst of a semi-rural neighborhood, with houses surrounding the property in close proximity. I couldn't believe what I saw and heard, with models up to and including G62 powered unlimited class AT-6 racers being flown there. On inquiring about it I learned that the owner of the field (now deceased) had a Cat grader, and he was the guy that voluntarily maintained the gravel roads and driveways in the community. I reckon that measure of good will toward his neighbors returned at least 20-30 dB of noise tolerance toward the activities of the club.

Abel

Talk about a bunch of well and truly bored folks !

Those guys think jumping outta perfectly good airplanes is a fun thing to do.

We already do it now, off the street and over a park at one of my buddy's communities. All his neighbors don't have a problem with it and they have fun watching us, to see what we come up with next to fly........ It's more fun than here at my place on the golf course.....

And Yes.... we are yelling "CAR...Stay up". or "Woman jogging with dog, Stay out".......... Way too much fun. I like your idea.... may I become your padd-a-wone..........

Too bad that there is people that live in a box and think our only problem is NOISE...............???? This is going to be a problem when there is no more gassers left to pay AMA and membership dues. What will become of Muncie??? Hummmm..........

Sorry Plumber, Able I missed your question about who at AMA am I referring to.

Really I'm referring to the EC mainly, but really everyone who earns a paycheck from this organization. They all stand to loose if there were not enough of us left to pay dues to AMA. Where would their paychecks come from? All that would be left would be a magazine. And there are already a couple of good ones out there that cater to electric flight.......

I like belonging to a club and the many friendships I've made at them. I will truly miss them when everyone becomes outlaws. I love to butt heads with those who live in a box and my buds are getting a great kick watching me do so..... What would happen to the cool events like the IMAA at Castle, Best of the West at Prado and the TOC in Vegas.... OOOOps....

Do you think our government or insurance provider companies would jump in and save this institution from collapsing, especially when it has so much to offer? What are we as the membership doing now to save it....? What is AMA doing? Why are we trying to save it when becoming an outlaw is much much easier?

Did you not know that the EC does NOT receive a pay-check? The EC are all volunteers except for the NAA representative. One would think that these dedicated individuals would really perform at the highest degree of proficient expertise.

IMO no one is doing anything. The AMA itself is well worth saving if it were to actually perform the functions it was organized to do. IMO that direction was diverted into outer space a long time ago. Unfortunately the membership doesn't give a tinker's dam about that. The membership is totally at fault if the AMA becomes history. The membership has had a number of golden opportunities to make changes. They have refused to do so.
Instead the members that can spell AMA simply whine and take the "EASY" way out -- DON'T THEY?[>:]

Hey Hoss,

Yes, I remember J_R once pointing out to all of us that the EC did not receive a paycheck. However, someone does and unfortunately it's not the decision makers ...ahhhh my point....... which truly places the power in the wrong hands......... People that receive the paycheck, I think, would want to save their jobs, I hope....... Right..............

And your right why should anyone give a tinker's damn. Like I said it is much much easier becoming an outlaw, easier than trying to clean up the mess that someone else makes from poor decision making. "THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX" Again, though, I would miss the friendships and fun here.

to quote J_R from another thread...

"The AMA is losing members. To determine the extent, contact your AMA VP or AMA headquarters. As a matter of fact, if you want to know anything about the AMA, that’s pretty good advice.

Horrace and I generally agree on nothing. His above opinions are no exception. Don’t bother to look at my posts. You will find nothing new. Everything I have been posting is several months old. I got disgusted with the "discussions" taking place in this forum and no longer report current information.

Now, don’t assume that means nothing is going on with the AMA, because it is. There is some stuff that is very exciting coming to fruition. There are other things in the planning stages. I will leave it to Horrace to report on them in a few months, or you can give consideration to his opinions."

WOW, I'm just excited to about hear this...... are they planning to open another Muncie???? or give away 1/2 priced or free memberships to outlaws for the first year??? find another disaster to pledge more money to??? what??? what??? what??? OK, maybe the last one was a low blow however I don't remember seeing any ticker tape parade in the media except in the MA magazine. Do you know if it got any more bang for the buck with the "soccer mom's" than what I'm aware of? Does mom know that AMA also stands for Academy of Model Aeronautics ...as well as the American Medical Association...? I do remember the big problem with many in the membership cheesed off at the building of Muncie.........

Hi Horrace

It’s one of those unique days when we agree on an issue. Here you have the result of previous EC action, but, from several years ago. Not the current makeup of the EC.

We have a CD who has proclaimed in post 44 of this thread “By the way folks, just for the record, I became a CD on my own. I researched and wrote the test on my own.�, yet he had to find out from me, on RCU that EC members are not paid.

I suppose the only good thing the EC did all those years ago was to separate the Leader Membership status from being a Contest Director.

Horrace, do you realize how hard it is now to become a CD? I mean, it could take an hour or so to find the answers in the open book test and find 3 open members to endorse you. When you are done, and the process complete, you are an agent of the AMA. Amazing, huh?

IIRC the work of that committee resulted in [link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/site/product.aspx?id=8AE089F52A9F473D85F2D700A74045E8&d =7CCD22D1AB41442384BA7EFFC735EBCC]"Sound and Model Aeronautics".[/link] That book is an excellent, practical reference that every modeler should own, irrespective of their preferred model motive power.

Well, ok, maybe it's not such a big seller at the Geezer Events, but it sure needs to be read by any modeler flying powered models outdoors.

Personally, I grew more than weary of committes which had been formed with specific objectives turning into standing committees which refused to die. The prime examples were the CD and LM committees of which J. McNeill was so very fond.

IMHO DB didn't do anyone a disservice by retiring the sound committee; if anything he gets my pat on the back for pruning the committee tree in a timely fashion.

I just wish Shrub would follow the example set by DB, and get rid of some of the more useless parts of The Fed.

IMHO 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue would make for an ideal starting point.

$0.37, adjusted for inflation.

Sorry, but I came into this issue about noise and filed loss "a bit" late. How is it that the same people that appear to be complaining about noise are also the ones that have Harleys with straight pipes, autos with custom pipes, gas weedeaters, leaf blowers, and lawn mowers? I'd be willing to bet that very few of them use electrically powered lawn equipment at their homes because the cord is inconvenient.

The loss of flying fields, IMO, has little to do with noise and much to do profit and property value. I'm one that has been throught the gamut of lawsuits and harassment from a field neighbor, and noise was never once mentioned as the cause of their ire in years on discussion, arguements, assaults, and lawsuits. The only defense we will ever have of our flying fields will be when we buy them, not lease, rent, or borrow. That's the only thing that saved ours.

A few of you are still saying that the irritating noise is the main problem. I agree that it may be perceved that way. I have a few questions to those who feel that way......

When your field was first put in, were there houses anywhere near it? If so, did you do a DB check for noise at the property line and determine if there was going to be a problem? If not, did the housing development encroach your field and then the problems started?

If all of a sudden there is a noise issue, did you find out if the person is new to the area? Are their new land owners? Is the land about to be developed? Did any of you, in a friendly manor talk to the people to see what the real issue is?

I am going to jump in here one more time. My last post was #27 in this thread.
With the exception of the geezer comments there is absolutely nothing new in this whole thread. The exact same things about noise, rapid loss of flying sites, having to travel further to fly and flying alternative types of airplanes or dropping out of flying all together have been covered in the editorial and old AMA columns since the 1940s. I know this because I have the magazines and review them periodically for historical perspective.
I have no solution but will offer the following observations.

1. Modelers as a group are cheapskates. They will brag about what they own but whine about the cost of maintaining a flying site.

2. Modelers as a group put less effort into holding on to the sites that they have compared to any activity that involves sports and children.

3. Modelers as a group have never been able to act in political concert at any level while other groups have.

4. Modelers are not perceived by political officials as worthwhile group to cultivate for votes because they are too scattered compared to other sports activities.

5. Model airplanes unlike children are not the future of the community they are just a curiosity indulged in by a few.

So what does this all mean? Nothing, other than as a group we will continue to stumble along in a semi nomadic fashion looking back longingly at the fields we once had while wringing our hands about our uncertain future, just as we have for the past 60 plus years.

Ron-

When our club field was first put in, the potential irritating noise was perceived to be problem by some of the neighbors. That was the major obstacle we faced in establishing the field. We had to show the owning agency of the property that we could operate without creating a noise nuisance for them to have to answer to. The answer to most of your questions is yes, i.e., noise level survey at the boundaries, house-to-house interviews, requirement for testing every model for compliance with strict limits on sound emissions, etc.
Also yes re complaints from persons new to the area, that began before they closed escrow on the property, and yes to talking to them in a friendly manner. An invitation to them to join us for the annual family picnic at the site resulted in an additional complaint to county authorities about our 'partying' there. They complained to the Fire Dept about a fire hazard that our activity supposedly represented.

As for what 'the real issue' was/is, for all I know it may have been that she was having a difficult menopause. Whatever, it doesn't matter - we had to defend against all of the charges made, before the town planning group and the county supervisor's office. Fortunately we were well prepared, including demonstration that we were well within the limits on noise emissions specified in the ordinances. It would not have mattered if noise were the real issue or not - getting the charge dismissed as without merit was critical to retaining our field. That would have been next to impossible to do if we had started getting smart about noise issues after the complaints were made.

Abel

Thanks everyone for your response..... From all you have told me.... I have now formulated a truth that noise is not the real problem although perceived because it's an easier identifiable law to enforce. The real problem is from all of us that we don't take the care or time into educating the general public "the soccer mom" in that we are much more than a bunch of men (and very few gals) and their toys. Even though we do become heros in our communities or purchase the land, that this will not be enough because MONEY talks louder than good deeds or private ownership. Is this correct?

May I use that to demystify the BUNK or do I jump in the box too.........? I don't want to be in the box, it's too stagnant and stinky....

How can we solve this problem?

There is no doubt that this is a truely serious problem, a problem that for the most part there isn't much of a chance of anyone finding a solution. Personally, I firmly believe that there a tiny possibility of finding such a solution. Perhaps before it's too late, I might be able to convince industry members, including the can't-think-outside-of-the-box AMA hiarchy, that there just might be a way to help our cause. But I won't hold my breath.

I did get somewhere with the former AMA E.D. but along with other reasons, he more than likely left because he ran up against the same brick wall that I had the displeasure of constantly crashing into. Oh well.

CCR

Your right.. And if DB is now talking about it (post #94 by earlier by you).... it's really got to be serious but now maybe too late..........

Come to think of it, I'm not taking credit for it, but I've sent in quite a few emails to him explaining how I could possibly help in a significant way, and a few of his columns seem to reflect, sometimes almost verbatum what I've written to him and other AMA officials. Just maybe they might be seeing things in a different light. Who knows?

CCR

Ron-

As a practical matter, noise, or if you prefer perception of noise or even a fraudulent claim of noise annoyance covering some other motive, is a real problem for many of us. Not so much 'an easier identifiable law to enforce,' but rather easier for a complainant to invoke, by simply making a complaint sans any requirement for supporting evidence. If he complains that you drive recklessly past his house for example, he'll need to prove it to make the charge stick, as by having witnesses such as a cop catching you in the act. Not so with a noise complaint. If he says he is annoyed by noise you have created, that is incontrovertable. Imagine trying to convince a judge that he was not annoyed and is just lying about it. Contrary to the advertised principle of law, you are guilty until proven innocent in such a situation.

The general public is not your adversary when it comes to unfounded noise complaints. Assuming you in compliance with accepted standards for noise abatement, it is the unreasonable, overly sensitive social misfits that level complaints. What you have to prove in order to have such a complaint dismissed as being without merit is that complainant is an outlyer from the general public norm, unusually sensitive to noise. The pertinent laws do not attempt to satisfy everybody as regards freedom from noise annoyance. They are structured to accomodate most of the people most of the time. Noise annoyance is subjective and there are wide variances in the statistics of what levels are acceptable and not between individuals. There is no level low enough to be acceptable to all the people all the time.

Many communities have established objective levels on permitted noise emissions. These levels have been arrived at through a lot of field survey work by agencies charged with environmental quality, like HUD in the US, and promulgated by standards organizations like ANSI. They are not measures of noise annoyance per se, and cannot be due to the subjective nature of noise perception. What they are is objective measures that have been shown to correlate statistically with instances of noise complaints. They are normally set at values tolerable to the majority of the populace at some statistical level, say 80-90%. If a locality has such objective levels in the ordinances, getting the complaint dismissed is a matter of showing convincing evidence (e.g., sound survey data, operating logs) demonstrating that a) you understand what the law is, and b) are in compliance with it. That's what takes to show complainent is outside the population norms of reason and sensitivity and so get it dismissed. As you in LA Co there are no objective limits set by ordinance. That makes it a little more difficult, as you will also have to show what is the norm for acceptability in order to show complainant is an oddball. Is is doable - a good place to start looking is the nonoise.org web site mentioned earlier in this thread.

It takes some effort to build a defense against this threat before it is needed. Probably not so much as compared to the other efforts required to obtain the use of the site and keep it up, though.

Abel

Hey Able....

I would like you to think about this with me.....

I am a land owner who's land is zoned for industrial mining... I run heavy mining equipment all day long. I have an open canyon area that a long time ago I told a group of modelers that they could go and have fun for FREE.... I have a son that is very much into dirt bikes.... I have a dirt bike company that offered me a good deal of money a year to set up a practice track. I allow them to build it at the end and about maybe 100 yards next to the runway which makes it hard not to fly over it especially during take off. Two more were build on top of a hill next to the runway and I'm allowing three more to be built, probably in the same canyon as the first and the modelers. Did I say that I am getting large amounts of rent from these dirt bike tracks.... Did I say that the modelers cut powerlines twice which I had to pay for the repairs and scared horses at a nearby ranch. Who is going to move?

And there is nothing wrong with that. So what is the problem here? Please simplify what you would like me to say on your behalf............

Ron -

The modelers wore out their welcome and will be moving.
Some flying fields are lost to noise disputes, some due to other causes.
This one obviously was lost to other causes.
Was it your point that some fields are lost to causes other than noise? If so, no argument. Sometimes it's due to 'progress ala bulldozer' and sometimes sheer stupidity and callousness on the part of modelers themselves. Most modelers I've run into are conscientious and considerate of their landowner benefactors. Then, there are unreasonable social misfits within the populace of modeldom. too. I know of an instance in my locale where a club president took an internal club dispute over a safety issue to the property owner for support for 'his side,' ending the club's tenure there post haste. We've seen a similar internal squabble spread to involving the property owner, AMA, and the denizens of this forum as it was fought in part right here.
When the problem is ignorance, sometimes I feel I can help and may give it a try. When the problem is stupidity I just throw up my hands.

Abel

Hey Able...

I started this thread because I was told that noise was the main factor for loosing our air fields. There were other things that were discussed and decisions made that did not make sense to me, in which I bought this question to the table. But I was boxed into a corner (and like I said earlier that I don't want to be in the box) and was force fed this information just because they, IMO, misunderstood the information that was being presented to them from AMA and that was the be all of end all excuses.... It's very hard to bring out the full details and remain PC about this topic because of the way I (and others) witnessed grown men behave. And the most ironic thing of this is, let's just say that where I was force fed this information, is the club that is in the planning stages of moving their field because they are being encroached on by silent dirt bike tracks........... GOOOO FIGURE..............

Anyway, thanks all for who responded, IMO it was informative and not only did I learn a little more about the noise issue, I also learned about the acronym listings (hahaha) doh... (LOL).........

Ron, you forgot the fires from planes hitting the powerlines.

Paul

Really!!! My good friend that has been a member since before the Deleo field opened never said anything about the fires. This would of then happened before my time joining the club. Thanks, I will have to ask him about it.............

I know this is not related however, since I've been a member of this club, there was a big grass fire that was set on the hill, the poop house was set on fire and then pipe bombed, a bonfire in the middle of the runway and alcohol bottles broken all over the place, to say the least. At another field I go to, they like to knock over the poop house and drag it around the pits, once we found it out in the middle of the runway........

Does this type of vandalism happen at your fields too, in other states, or is it a California (SoCal) thing?

i think it was about 1997 that jim brown "landed" his pattern plane in the power lines. with the engine still running, he turned off his transmitter and began to walk toward the lines. the engine went full power, and the airplane proceeded to twist the lines setting off large sparks, which ignited the underbrush. we had a couple of shovel and lots of boots so we had the fire contained in a few minutes. SCE came out later and restored power. It still makes for a good story!!

My two cents is that the difficulties faced by clubs in So Cal has much more to do with rising real estate values than anything else. The land is just too valuable, and that was cause for the loss of Mid Air Square, El Toro, 4th St in Ontario, Highland, etc. Land that would not have appealed to a dirt farmer twenty years ago is now home to a growing population of half million homes - with no end in sight. Without long term leases - such is being negotiated for the new field by Irvine Lake - clubs are subject to the whims of the landowners and even after a long residence, theri stay can be over pretty quick.

P