Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
04-21-2006 | 06:31 PM
#1
Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
Please read the entire thread before jumping in and adding your view on things.
OK, this is going to sound like whining but I really think some one screwed up here and it wasn't Clovis or Amarillo. I blame District 8 and the district contest coordinator for causing both flying clubs to suffer with competing for the same people to come to their events on the same day.
On May 20th my club (Clovis, NM Mads) and Amarillo, TX (ARKS) are having a Class C event. The Clovis event is only on Saturday and theirs is Sat and Sun. Club distances are only 80.6 miles apart from each other. This is field to field driving distance. Both clubs are approved sanctions for the same date. Clovis submitted their request for this date far before Amarillo. Let me make this perfectly clear, I DO NOT blame Amarillo for this error. It should have been prevented by the District Contest coordinator.
I complained to the district 8 coordinator (doug powell) and the VP (sandy frank). Both suggested, we could reschedule our event. Mr. Powell said that the distance isn't measured from field to field that it's measured from town to town. I told them that rescheduling at this late time was not an option. Fliers where printed and we had the ball rolling big time.
I asked for the Rules that they used to interpret this be provided to me so I could read them my self. <I have received nothing 4 days later.>
I was told that Amarillo always has their event this time of year. <I wonder what is being implied here...>
To be honest allot more nouns and verbs where used in the E-mails that transferred back and forth. Both Mr. Powell and Mr. Frank have refused to let me post any of their E-mails in a public forum. I did ask if I could. I would be happy to post all my comments as I am not ashamed of my comments in my E-mails to them.
All I really wanted out of the whole thing was to have them admit they where wrong and where sorry. I knew that Amarillo and Clovis where bound to suffer because these guys just screwed up. (my opinion)
Ironically this was all going on while my previous post was being debated. I can not prove if that had any bearing on things but I sure did get some improper E-mails from Mr. Frank.
I ask you the AMA membership is this fair treatment? Did Mr. Powell make an error? Did Mr. Frank error by backing up his coordinator?
For the record, I will put my comments/Emails below in a qouted box. Please understand that things can be taken way out of context when you can't see both sides of the story. Again I have been denied the ability to post their comments. This is how I fight for my Club's rights and when my club gets what I consider to be the shaft.
OK, this is going to sound like whining but I really think some one screwed up here and it wasn't Clovis or Amarillo. I blame District 8 and the district contest coordinator for causing both flying clubs to suffer with competing for the same people to come to their events on the same day.
On May 20th my club (Clovis, NM Mads) and Amarillo, TX (ARKS) are having a Class C event. The Clovis event is only on Saturday and theirs is Sat and Sun. Club distances are only 80.6 miles apart from each other. This is field to field driving distance. Both clubs are approved sanctions for the same date. Clovis submitted their request for this date far before Amarillo. Let me make this perfectly clear, I DO NOT blame Amarillo for this error. It should have been prevented by the District Contest coordinator.
I complained to the district 8 coordinator (doug powell) and the VP (sandy frank). Both suggested, we could reschedule our event. Mr. Powell said that the distance isn't measured from field to field that it's measured from town to town. I told them that rescheduling at this late time was not an option. Fliers where printed and we had the ball rolling big time.
I asked for the Rules that they used to interpret this be provided to me so I could read them my self. <I have received nothing 4 days later.>
I was told that Amarillo always has their event this time of year. <I wonder what is being implied here...>
To be honest allot more nouns and verbs where used in the E-mails that transferred back and forth. Both Mr. Powell and Mr. Frank have refused to let me post any of their E-mails in a public forum. I did ask if I could. I would be happy to post all my comments as I am not ashamed of my comments in my E-mails to them.
All I really wanted out of the whole thing was to have them admit they where wrong and where sorry. I knew that Amarillo and Clovis where bound to suffer because these guys just screwed up. (my opinion)
Ironically this was all going on while my previous post was being debated. I can not prove if that had any bearing on things but I sure did get some improper E-mails from Mr. Frank.
I ask you the AMA membership is this fair treatment? Did Mr. Powell make an error? Did Mr. Frank error by backing up his coordinator?
For the record, I will put my comments/Emails below in a qouted box. Please understand that things can be taken way out of context when you can't see both sides of the story. Again I have been denied the ability to post their comments. This is how I fight for my Club's rights and when my club gets what I consider to be the shaft.
E-mail #1
Dr Frank,
As president of the Clovis Model Airplane Drivers Society, I am writing to you to express my disgust with the way the AMA and the district has allowed 3 events to happen within close proximity to each other on the same weekend. At this time Clovis, Amarillo and Alamogordo all are scheduled to have flying event on the weekend of May 20-21, 2006. Clovis was the first to submit and have their dates approved by the AMA and District 8. With these other clubs now having their meets/fly-ins on the same date we are now expecting a worse turn out than we have had in the past.
I would be grateful if the main contest coordinator would pay closer attention to dates and locations in the future. This present situation is what I would consider to be unacceptable. What does district 8 and the AMA have to say for it’s self? I regret there is probably nothing that can be done to remedy this situation at this point in time.
Please feel free to call me on this matter. 505-***-**** on the weekends and evenings.
Regards,
Ken Bryant
MADS President
Email #2
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:38 PM
To: 'Doug Powell'
Subject: RE: Disgusted with Chapter 8 and AMA
The 100 mile rule is in effect. The driving distance from club field to club field is under 100 miles. I know I have driven it many times. You need to realize just how close these to clubs are. Amarillo’s field is just off the southwestern boarder of Amarilo on City Lake Road. Our club is on the North eastern corner of Clovis. This creates a shorter distance between the fields in question. The distance between clubs is only 80.6 miles driving.
I understand that Alamogordo is a far enough distance. I wasn’t to worried about the Alamogordo event to start with my main concern is Amarillo.
My biggest issue is that the Amarillo event has been given the go at the same time as ours. Rescheduling is NOT an option for our event. We have spent to much on advritising and publicity to change it now. This was the reason we scheduled early in the year. To keep this VERY thing from happening.
Now that I have pointed out that you are wrong on the distances how do you plan on resolving this error?
Ken
Email #3
Dr. Frank
This sir is one very good reason I am upset with this district. There are NO written rules that I can find that say mileage is considered distance from city to city instead of club to club. This appears as one mans way of trying to talk his way out of a bad situation or admitting a mistake was made. Don’t give me the “well Amarillo has always done this” excuse, that doesn’t float in my book. All clubs should have an equal shot at any date. If one club has their submission in before another then so be it. I saw the writing on the wall well before this actually happened. This was why we submitted our dates as early as wee did we wanted to get the opportunity to have people from Amarillo come to our event and in turn attend Amarillo’s event. Since Mr Powell made this error now both clubs will suffer with lower attendance at their given events. This doesn’t help either club.
Lastly, I promise you if the military allowed me to run for office against you I would give it a try.
E-mail #4
Judging by your response below you and Mr. Powell are going to do nothing about the situation that Mr. Powell put us in?
Would you mind if I posted this letter in it's entirety on RCU for all to see just how this has been handled? Yes, I am asking your permission before doing it. The only thing I will omit from it are E-mail addresses and phone numbers.
Email #5
I also have done a full career in the military I am on my 21st year So that is not relevant. The branch and part of the military I am in is only obvious. Clovis New Mexico is next to Cannon AFB.
The solution is very simple in my mind, you and Mr. Powell have been in error. Nothing is in writing that governs distance in an appropriate manner and opens it's self to wide interpretation. When that happens the interpretation of the rule gets skewed to any persons view point. I asked you for written rules regarding this issue and you have provided nothing.
You have not provided accurate or clear answers to my queries and you only take on a defensive manner when I approach. You sir have not conducted yourself in a professional manner. You nor Mr. Powell have not been willing to accept responsibility for an error made by your staff and your friend. You challenge me based on postings on an internet forum but are not willing to post openly. You are afraid of the public and are only willing to cower behind your keyboard. At least I have the willingness to express my feelings toward you and this district in an open forum and discuss what can be done to improve things. All you do is type one line comments in an E-mail you are not willing to let the world see. Shameful. You are a POOR excuse for an officer in this organization.
Oh and just so you know I will be posting my communications to you on the internet. I will be editing out what you and Chief said because you asked me not to put your comments in. Also I will be writing a complaint to the AMA based upon your actions regarding this issue and the challenging comments that you have written me. Your conduct is unacceptable for an officer within a national organization as this.
Good Day.
Ken Bryant
Email #6
What rules? Where are they written? Provide them to me This is one thing NO ONE has been willing to provide. Where does it stipulate that a 100 mile distance CITY TO CITY is considered the separation?
No where have I asked for "SPECIAL" treatment. I just asked for justice and proof. That "my friend" is the dilemma. When I showed the facts as I knew them NO ONE said anything. All I got from you where childish responses to a post I made on RCU. You still have NOT provided me with anything in the way of proof and neither has Mr. Powell. WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN IN THE RULES? Show me and I will go away. Simple as that.
Trust me I am not scared of you in posting correspondences. So don't threaten me. I asked you as a sign of respect you said no and that's all I need. Don't act like you can sue me or do anything to me over it because you can not. And I continue to respect your wish not to post your comments or any but my own. Just don't be a jerk over it. I might not be happy with things but that doesn't mean I am not an honorable person.
Email #7
Do you mind if I quote your E-mails? I am writing a post on RCU referring to this entire issue and I do not want to miss quote you. FWIW, Dr Frank forbid me using yours or his but in fairness I thought I would as you for your permission too.
Regards,
Ken Bryant
Dr Frank,
As president of the Clovis Model Airplane Drivers Society, I am writing to you to express my disgust with the way the AMA and the district has allowed 3 events to happen within close proximity to each other on the same weekend. At this time Clovis, Amarillo and Alamogordo all are scheduled to have flying event on the weekend of May 20-21, 2006. Clovis was the first to submit and have their dates approved by the AMA and District 8. With these other clubs now having their meets/fly-ins on the same date we are now expecting a worse turn out than we have had in the past.
I would be grateful if the main contest coordinator would pay closer attention to dates and locations in the future. This present situation is what I would consider to be unacceptable. What does district 8 and the AMA have to say for it’s self? I regret there is probably nothing that can be done to remedy this situation at this point in time.
Please feel free to call me on this matter. 505-***-**** on the weekends and evenings.
Regards,
Ken Bryant
MADS President
Email #2
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:38 PM
To: 'Doug Powell'
Subject: RE: Disgusted with Chapter 8 and AMA
The 100 mile rule is in effect. The driving distance from club field to club field is under 100 miles. I know I have driven it many times. You need to realize just how close these to clubs are. Amarillo’s field is just off the southwestern boarder of Amarilo on City Lake Road. Our club is on the North eastern corner of Clovis. This creates a shorter distance between the fields in question. The distance between clubs is only 80.6 miles driving.
I understand that Alamogordo is a far enough distance. I wasn’t to worried about the Alamogordo event to start with my main concern is Amarillo.
My biggest issue is that the Amarillo event has been given the go at the same time as ours. Rescheduling is NOT an option for our event. We have spent to much on advritising and publicity to change it now. This was the reason we scheduled early in the year. To keep this VERY thing from happening.
Now that I have pointed out that you are wrong on the distances how do you plan on resolving this error?
Ken
Email #3
Dr. Frank
This sir is one very good reason I am upset with this district. There are NO written rules that I can find that say mileage is considered distance from city to city instead of club to club. This appears as one mans way of trying to talk his way out of a bad situation or admitting a mistake was made. Don’t give me the “well Amarillo has always done this” excuse, that doesn’t float in my book. All clubs should have an equal shot at any date. If one club has their submission in before another then so be it. I saw the writing on the wall well before this actually happened. This was why we submitted our dates as early as wee did we wanted to get the opportunity to have people from Amarillo come to our event and in turn attend Amarillo’s event. Since Mr Powell made this error now both clubs will suffer with lower attendance at their given events. This doesn’t help either club.
Lastly, I promise you if the military allowed me to run for office against you I would give it a try.
E-mail #4
Judging by your response below you and Mr. Powell are going to do nothing about the situation that Mr. Powell put us in?
Would you mind if I posted this letter in it's entirety on RCU for all to see just how this has been handled? Yes, I am asking your permission before doing it. The only thing I will omit from it are E-mail addresses and phone numbers.
Email #5
I also have done a full career in the military I am on my 21st year So that is not relevant. The branch and part of the military I am in is only obvious. Clovis New Mexico is next to Cannon AFB.
The solution is very simple in my mind, you and Mr. Powell have been in error. Nothing is in writing that governs distance in an appropriate manner and opens it's self to wide interpretation. When that happens the interpretation of the rule gets skewed to any persons view point. I asked you for written rules regarding this issue and you have provided nothing.
You have not provided accurate or clear answers to my queries and you only take on a defensive manner when I approach. You sir have not conducted yourself in a professional manner. You nor Mr. Powell have not been willing to accept responsibility for an error made by your staff and your friend. You challenge me based on postings on an internet forum but are not willing to post openly. You are afraid of the public and are only willing to cower behind your keyboard. At least I have the willingness to express my feelings toward you and this district in an open forum and discuss what can be done to improve things. All you do is type one line comments in an E-mail you are not willing to let the world see. Shameful. You are a POOR excuse for an officer in this organization.
Oh and just so you know I will be posting my communications to you on the internet. I will be editing out what you and Chief said because you asked me not to put your comments in. Also I will be writing a complaint to the AMA based upon your actions regarding this issue and the challenging comments that you have written me. Your conduct is unacceptable for an officer within a national organization as this.
Good Day.
Ken Bryant
Email #6
What rules? Where are they written? Provide them to me This is one thing NO ONE has been willing to provide. Where does it stipulate that a 100 mile distance CITY TO CITY is considered the separation?
No where have I asked for "SPECIAL" treatment. I just asked for justice and proof. That "my friend" is the dilemma. When I showed the facts as I knew them NO ONE said anything. All I got from you where childish responses to a post I made on RCU. You still have NOT provided me with anything in the way of proof and neither has Mr. Powell. WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN IN THE RULES? Show me and I will go away. Simple as that.
Trust me I am not scared of you in posting correspondences. So don't threaten me. I asked you as a sign of respect you said no and that's all I need. Don't act like you can sue me or do anything to me over it because you can not. And I continue to respect your wish not to post your comments or any but my own. Just don't be a jerk over it. I might not be happy with things but that doesn't mean I am not an honorable person.
Email #7
Do you mind if I quote your E-mails? I am writing a post on RCU referring to this entire issue and I do not want to miss quote you. FWIW, Dr Frank forbid me using yours or his but in fairness I thought I would as you for your permission too.
Regards,
Ken Bryant
04-21-2006 | 06:49 PM
#3
Senior Member
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
I don't know any more than what you posted, and I'm not up on the current contest coordinating rules (I was a contest coordinator back in the early 80's). If Amarillo has a traditional date, and they apply for a sanction some designated time beforehand, that date is theirs. If they do not apply for sanction by that date, the date is open to whoever applies first. There was a protected radius for a contest sanctioned at a particular location. I don't know if this applies to "C" events. As said, I'm not current.
04-21-2006 | 08:04 PM
#4
My Feedback: (12)
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
I find the following quote from one of your emails a bit telling:
It sort of sounds like you KNEW you were competing against a traditional event and intentionally sent your application in early knowing there could be a conflict. Rather than trying to get someone else to force the traditional event to schedule around your event, and then blaming them for not doing so, did you ever consider CONTACTING the other club and coordinating your dates?
I don't participate in flying competitions, but I'm active in boat racing. We don't just send in our race sanction requests and ask someone else to be the bad guy. Instead, when we set our calendars at the beginning of the year, we consider the schedules of other clubs in the district, as well as out of district races that people may want to go to. We also have a district wide meeting to resolve conflicts. Traditional events are ALWAYS given their dates and other events scheduled around them.
If one club has their submission in before another then so be it. I saw the writing on the wall well before this actually happened. This was why we submitted our dates as early as wee did we wanted to get the opportunity to have people from Amarillo come to our event and in turn attend Amarillo’s event. Since Mr Powell made this error now both clubs will suffer with lower attendance at their given events. This doesn’t help either club.
I don't participate in flying competitions, but I'm active in boat racing. We don't just send in our race sanction requests and ask someone else to be the bad guy. Instead, when we set our calendars at the beginning of the year, we consider the schedules of other clubs in the district, as well as out of district races that people may want to go to. We also have a district wide meeting to resolve conflicts. Traditional events are ALWAYS given their dates and other events scheduled around them.
04-21-2006 | 08:30 PM
#5
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From: MAnsfield,
MA
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
It's Sandy Frank what do you expect..In every governing body someone has to be the sphincter!!! A LA Dr. FRANK.
Nothin new here. Sad he is not in D1, we would oust him like tea in boston harbor
Nothin new here. Sad he is not in D1, we would oust him like tea in boston harbor
04-21-2006 | 09:27 PM
#6
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From: East Cobb County,
GA
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
ORIGINAL: Ken Bryant
On May 20th my club (Clovis, NM Mads) and Amarillo, TX (ARKS) are having a Class C event. The Clovis event is only on Saturday and theirs is Sat and Sun. Club distances are only 80.6 miles apart from each other. This is field to field driving distance. Both clubs are approved sanctions for the same date. Clovis submitted their request for this date far before Amarillo. Let me make this perfectly clear, I DO NOT blame Amarillo for this error. It should have been prevented by the District Contest coordinator.
On May 20th my club (Clovis, NM Mads) and Amarillo, TX (ARKS) are having a Class C event. The Clovis event is only on Saturday and theirs is Sat and Sun. Club distances are only 80.6 miles apart from each other. This is field to field driving distance. Both clubs are approved sanctions for the same date. Clovis submitted their request for this date far before Amarillo. Let me make this perfectly clear, I DO NOT blame Amarillo for this error. It should have been prevented by the District Contest coordinator.
04-21-2006 | 10:33 PM
#7
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RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
I believe that once upon a time there was a statement to the effect that a Class C is entitled to the same area as a Class A (100 mi). But I cannot find that section in the current version of either the 2006 Membership Manual or the 2006-2007 Competion Regulations. It is also interesting to note that the protected drawing area is a guideline and not a rule.
04-21-2006 | 10:35 PM
#8
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
It sort of sounds like you KNEW you were competing against a traditional event and intentionally sent your application in early knowing there could be a conflict. Rather than trying to get someone else to force the traditional event to schedule around your event, and then blaming them for not doing so, did you ever consider CONTACTING the other club and coordinating your dates?
I'm having a spot of bother finding the rule regarding the protected drawing area for Class "C" events. Would you be so kind as to point it out to me ?
04-22-2006 | 01:37 AM
#9
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
Ken:
Here is the rule that has always been in the Mbs. Manuals for some time, but not in the Rule Book. Now it has disappeared from the '06 manual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>
3.10. Class C. Non-rule Book Events. An event with unrestricted entry to
AMA members that may or may not offer awards, or an organized get together
of modelers for fellowship, mutual interests and/or good will, and
may or may not offer a formal flying competition. A Class C event may be
composed of special events, fun-fly events, or any combination thereof. A
description of these events and any special safety precautions must be
included with the sanction application. HQ will communicate any
suggested additional safety requirements. The same date and area
protection applies as A contests. If restricted following the guidelines for
Class B events, it should be listed as “C-restricted.”
<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<<<<<<<<<
BTW note these "guidelines" state "...distance between contests.."
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;
GUIDELINES FOR CONTEST COORDINATORS
Contest Coordinators are charged with the responsibility of promoting the
sport by reducing the conflicts retained. Cross proposals will not be used to
introduce new rules changes or to reintroduce proposals that were defeated
the Initial Ballot. that inevitably arise in a heterogeneous hobby like
ours. This is best done by people at the local level, making responsible
decisions about conditions in their own Districts. While we recognize the
absolute necessity for judgment at the local level, we offer the following
guidelines so that in the event of a lack of precedent or lack of familiarity
with particular problems, there may be a certain degree of uniformity
among decisions.
Protected Drawing Area. The base on which the system is built is that of
protected drawing area. Actually, this should be interpreted as modeler
population, but this is very difficult to use even in the most general sense.
Only after years of experience in a certain District can a Coordinator
develop a feel for who flies what and lives where. It is hoped that those
Coordinators who have developed this information will use it rather than
coarse area measure which we propose here.
general, on the same date, there should be at least the following
distances separating contests:
Class A 100 milesClass AA 300 miles
Class AAA or AAAA 450 miles
(These distances should be scaled down in high population density areas
and should be scaled up in low population areas.)
<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<
C and Cr are still on the Event application. I have questioned [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], concerning the reason for removing the item in the '06 Manual and adding a lot of RB General that doesn't need to be there. I am sure the answer will be exceptionally evasive and provide little useful information. OTOH I involved Kaluf because even though we clashed a some years ago, he got his section pretty well effective and has always been a straight shooter with me. Just because I don't always like his answer, at least he doesn't do a Yankee two-step when he speaks, so I respect him very well.
Actually Chief has been a straight shooter also. He does bend to Sandy and sometimes DB will jump in. DB seems to have a "rigid" for IMAA and will do whatever he can to twist the screws into any IMAA CD ref. event coordination.
If any of these events are IMAA sanctioned Big Bird, I assure you those CDs will get NO -- ZERO -- ZILCH consideration for any event separation if DB gets into the "discussions".
In 2004, I had my dealings with him and the results were a disaster for my club. My signature below states my side of the "discussion".
BTW, there are no "Traditional" C -- Cr events. Only AA or higher CONTESTS are recognized for that reservation.
Good Luck.
OH Forgot! [:'(] I would never ask if I could quote Sandy Frank. Maybe that is why he never answers anything to me!!
I quit keeping secrets when I got out of the Nuclear Weapons Door-to-Door Delivery Service in Strategic Air Command's B-47. If you don't want it repeated, don't tell me!!
edit; add a remark.
Here is the rule that has always been in the Mbs. Manuals for some time, but not in the Rule Book. Now it has disappeared from the '06 manual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>
3.10. Class C. Non-rule Book Events. An event with unrestricted entry to
AMA members that may or may not offer awards, or an organized get together
of modelers for fellowship, mutual interests and/or good will, and
may or may not offer a formal flying competition. A Class C event may be
composed of special events, fun-fly events, or any combination thereof. A
description of these events and any special safety precautions must be
included with the sanction application. HQ will communicate any
suggested additional safety requirements. The same date and area
protection applies as A contests. If restricted following the guidelines for
Class B events, it should be listed as “C-restricted.”
<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<<<<<<<<<
BTW note these "guidelines" state "...distance between contests.."
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;
GUIDELINES FOR CONTEST COORDINATORS
Contest Coordinators are charged with the responsibility of promoting the
sport by reducing the conflicts retained. Cross proposals will not be used to
introduce new rules changes or to reintroduce proposals that were defeated
the Initial Ballot. that inevitably arise in a heterogeneous hobby like
ours. This is best done by people at the local level, making responsible
decisions about conditions in their own Districts. While we recognize the
absolute necessity for judgment at the local level, we offer the following
guidelines so that in the event of a lack of precedent or lack of familiarity
with particular problems, there may be a certain degree of uniformity
among decisions.
Protected Drawing Area. The base on which the system is built is that of
protected drawing area. Actually, this should be interpreted as modeler
population, but this is very difficult to use even in the most general sense.
Only after years of experience in a certain District can a Coordinator
develop a feel for who flies what and lives where. It is hoped that those
Coordinators who have developed this information will use it rather than
coarse area measure which we propose here.
general, on the same date, there should be at least the following
distances separating contests:
Class A 100 milesClass AA 300 miles
Class AAA or AAAA 450 miles
(These distances should be scaled down in high population density areas
and should be scaled up in low population areas.)
<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<
C and Cr are still on the Event application. I have questioned [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], concerning the reason for removing the item in the '06 Manual and adding a lot of RB General that doesn't need to be there. I am sure the answer will be exceptionally evasive and provide little useful information. OTOH I involved Kaluf because even though we clashed a some years ago, he got his section pretty well effective and has always been a straight shooter with me. Just because I don't always like his answer, at least he doesn't do a Yankee two-step when he speaks, so I respect him very well.
Actually Chief has been a straight shooter also. He does bend to Sandy and sometimes DB will jump in. DB seems to have a "rigid" for IMAA and will do whatever he can to twist the screws into any IMAA CD ref. event coordination.
If any of these events are IMAA sanctioned Big Bird, I assure you those CDs will get NO -- ZERO -- ZILCH consideration for any event separation if DB gets into the "discussions".
In 2004, I had my dealings with him and the results were a disaster for my club. My signature below states my side of the "discussion".
BTW, there are no "Traditional" C -- Cr events. Only AA or higher CONTESTS are recognized for that reservation.
Good Luck.
OH Forgot! [:'(] I would never ask if I could quote Sandy Frank. Maybe that is why he never answers anything to me!!
I quit keeping secrets when I got out of the Nuclear Weapons Door-to-Door Delivery Service in Strategic Air Command's B-47. If you don't want it repeated, don't tell me!!
edit; add a remark.
04-22-2006 | 06:34 AM
#10
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From: Newark,
DE
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
Ken,
As I read through your original post I get the feeling that your concerns have become less about the mistake of the date as opposed to the lack of responsiveness, respect and accountability that your AMA officials have toward this situation.
In reading your side of the conversation it seems that your VP quickly turned this in a 'It is not my fault' conversation. I absolutely agree with your side of the conversation.
There needs to be accountability in everyone's actions. From my reading, this whole situation could have been avoided by your VP and Contest Coordinator saying 'Yes, we made mistake, we are sorry that this happened.' or they could have explained why they felt they did not make a mistake - using current rules and guidelines- and suggest that next year they will work with the two clubs to see that this situation does not repeat itself.
Good luck in your quest for accountability.
Ron
As I read through your original post I get the feeling that your concerns have become less about the mistake of the date as opposed to the lack of responsiveness, respect and accountability that your AMA officials have toward this situation.
In reading your side of the conversation it seems that your VP quickly turned this in a 'It is not my fault' conversation. I absolutely agree with your side of the conversation.
There needs to be accountability in everyone's actions. From my reading, this whole situation could have been avoided by your VP and Contest Coordinator saying 'Yes, we made mistake, we are sorry that this happened.' or they could have explained why they felt they did not make a mistake - using current rules and guidelines- and suggest that next year they will work with the two clubs to see that this situation does not repeat itself.
Good luck in your quest for accountability.
Ron
04-22-2006 | 06:41 AM
#11
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: El Paso,
TX
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
Ken, This is par for the course when dealing with those guys. I once emailed Franks about my concerns over MA. All I got from him was the runaround and I wasn't playing fair. So here's our chance,lets dump him and his budy's. D8 nees a good voter trun out this time.
04-22-2006 | 07:27 AM
#12
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
I would never ask if I could quote Sandy Frank. Maybe that is why he never answers anything to me!!
I for one have nothing to loose. They can not take away my membership and they can not remove my club's charter (est 1964). Nuts on em.
04-22-2006 | 08:43 AM
#13
Senior Member
My Feedback: (13)
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
I don't doubt Dr. Frank didn't want his reponses published. The few times I e-mailed him a question or two, the responses I received were so convoluted and poorly written, even my youngest daughter (who is VERY fluent in the abysmally abbreviated "chat-speak" now in vogue among otherwise-intelligent youngsters) could not decipher them.
This guy is a lettered psychologist??? Glad I'm not a patient of his. But word is he's not seeking re-election; at least, for the D8 VP slot. So the problem may solve itself.
This guy is a lettered psychologist??? Glad I'm not a patient of his. But word is he's not seeking re-election; at least, for the D8 VP slot. So the problem may solve itself.
04-22-2006 | 10:32 AM
#14
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Joined: Feb 2006
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From: , CA
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
wow. something to consider guys is simply to ignore the sanctioning process. back when i was running the show for a large West Coast scale aerobatic contest series we decided that the easiest way not be bound by the AMA sanction "rules" was simply not to get one. Not a whole lot changed, except that I could have cared less what was going on down the road - including an IMAC event, if someone wanted to do one. site insurance is still in effect, as is modeler protection. but you would completely avoid situations such that are described here.
Ken, I don't disagree with any of your positions. My experience with the AMA and its mouth pieces is to find away around the boulder, rather than trying to move it.
P
Ken, I don't disagree with any of your positions. My experience with the AMA and its mouth pieces is to find away around the boulder, rather than trying to move it.
P
04-22-2006 | 10:54 AM
#15
My Feedback: (162)
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
ORIGINAL: AWS
we decided that the easiest way not be bound by the AMA sanction "rules" was simply not to get one.
we decided that the easiest way not be bound by the AMA sanction "rules" was simply not to get one.
04-22-2006 | 10:04 PM
#16
Banned
My Feedback: (119)
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
You ASKED, so I will tell you.
I think YOU are wrong. All the way. YOU scheduled a contest knowing there was a conflict, because it benefitted YOUR own aims. YOU could have picked up the phone and called the CDs of the other contests and worked it all out so you did not have a conflict. YOU did not. And now it's all AMA's fault somehow?
And your need for "an apology" speaks volumes...who CARES about an apology? It's meaningless. And your letters to SF(who I can't stand) are nasty. I would not have responded after the first one, were I him.
How about YOU take a little responsibility for your OWN actions?
I think YOU are wrong. All the way. YOU scheduled a contest knowing there was a conflict, because it benefitted YOUR own aims. YOU could have picked up the phone and called the CDs of the other contests and worked it all out so you did not have a conflict. YOU did not. And now it's all AMA's fault somehow?
And your need for "an apology" speaks volumes...who CARES about an apology? It's meaningless. And your letters to SF(who I can't stand) are nasty. I would not have responded after the first one, were I him.
How about YOU take a little responsibility for your OWN actions?
04-22-2006 | 10:11 PM
#18
Banned
My Feedback: (119)
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
ORIGINAL: piper_chuck
I find the following quote from one of your emails a bit telling:
It sort of sounds like you KNEW you were competing against a traditional event and intentionally sent your application in early knowing there could be a conflict. Rather than trying to get someone else to force the traditional event to schedule around your event, and then blaming them for not doing so, did you ever consider CONTACTING the other club and coordinating your dates?
I don't participate in flying competitions, but I'm active in boat racing. We don't just send in our race sanction requests and ask someone else to be the bad guy. Instead, when we set our calendars at the beginning of the year, we consider the schedules of other clubs in the district, as well as out of district races that people may want to go to. We also have a district wide meeting to resolve conflicts. Traditional events are ALWAYS given their dates and other events scheduled around them.
I find the following quote from one of your emails a bit telling:
If one club has their submission in before another then so be it. I saw the writing on the wall well before this actually happened. This was why we submitted our dates as early as wee did we wanted to get the opportunity to have people from Amarillo come to our event and in turn attend Amarillo’s event. Since Mr Powell made this error now both clubs will suffer with lower attendance at their given events. This doesn’t help either club.
I don't participate in flying competitions, but I'm active in boat racing. We don't just send in our race sanction requests and ask someone else to be the bad guy. Instead, when we set our calendars at the beginning of the year, we consider the schedules of other clubs in the district, as well as out of district races that people may want to go to. We also have a district wide meeting to resolve conflicts. Traditional events are ALWAYS given their dates and other events scheduled around them.
04-22-2006 | 10:13 PM
#19
Banned
My Feedback: (119)
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
ORIGINAL: PLANE JIM
Is there a law or rule about posting emails that were sent to your pc?
Is there a law or rule about posting emails that were sent to your pc?
04-22-2006 | 10:29 PM
#20
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
YOU scheduled a contest knowing there was a conflict
YOU could have picked up the phone and called the CDs of the other contests and worked it all out so you did not have a conflict. YOU did not. And now it's all AMA's fault somehow?
The whole point was to keep a conflict from occuring at all. I relied on the Contest coordinator to do his job. This is where I failed and will admit to that. Yes, I was rude in my E-mails. However as I stated, you are only seeing one side of the story. Assume what you must.
And your need for "an apology" speaks volumes...who CARES about an apology? It's meaningless.
04-22-2006 | 10:32 PM
#21
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
Is there a law or rule about posting emails that were sent to your pc?
04-22-2006 | 10:38 PM
#22
Banned
My Feedback: (119)
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
ORIGINAL: Ken Bryant
Not true, When we scheduled our event we did not know when Amarilo would have their event. We did not have any idea if they would have one. We did schedule our event in a premtive manner so that we could get a date that was in line with a local Air Force base expo. This is what we worked around. Truth is Amarilo scheduled their contest after ours was already on the books. So in truth, they stepped on our date. The only thing we knew was that Amarilo might have a contest some time in the spring as they always did, remeber spring is only three months long with 12-13 weekends in it. We had NO IDEA when when we submited a date. We had ZERO NADA NO intention of having this issue happen. Like I said Our date was chossen so we did not conflict with our commitment to Cannon Air Force Base and nothing else. We choose early so that everyone in the area would see it and NOT conflict with it. Well that didn't happen.
No, I could not discuss it with any other CD because we scheduled first and our dates are in the last 2 MA magazines. I did not, I repeat NOT have any idea what any other clubs where planing in the area. Thiers is not even in the most recent magazine. They scheduled on the date we had already had reserved. They could have called too but didn't, The Dist 8 coordinator could have called, but didn't. This could have never have happend for allot of reasons but it did. The "fail safe" that is supposed to be in place failed. The one and only person that knew before anyone that the dates where in conflict was the Dist 8 contest coordinator. He saw it and did NOTHING. He was the first person that could have stoped this and didn't. After the dates where both approved both clubs now suffer.
The whole point was to keep a conflict from occuring at all. I relied on the Contest coordinator to do his job. This is where I failed and will admit to that. Yes, I was rude in my E-mails. However as I stated, you are only seeing one side of the story. Assume what you must.
Yep, that speaks volumes about the type of person you are and the type of person I am.
YOU scheduled a contest knowing there was a conflict
YOU could have picked up the phone and called the CDs of the other contests and worked it all out so you did not have a conflict. YOU did not. And now it's all AMA's fault somehow?
The whole point was to keep a conflict from occuring at all. I relied on the Contest coordinator to do his job. This is where I failed and will admit to that. Yes, I was rude in my E-mails. However as I stated, you are only seeing one side of the story. Assume what you must.
And your need for "an apology" speaks volumes...who CARES about an apology? It's meaningless.
Anyway, you are convinced you are blameless, and everybody else is at fault. I won't try to convince you otherwise, because it took a fantasic amount of rationalization for you to arrive at the state you are in right now, and it seems like you will just find a way to rationalize your own innocence no matter what, so what's the point of discussing it?
04-22-2006 | 11:01 PM
#24
Banned
My Feedback: (119)
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
ORIGINAL: PLANE JIM
ET-I sure am glad there are people like you that can tell me what are problems and what are not in my life-I wouldn't know what to do without people like you.
ET-I sure am glad there are people like you that can tell me what are problems and what are not in my life-I wouldn't know what to do without people like you.
Anyway...what are your thoughts about the actual subject at hand?
04-23-2006 | 01:40 AM
#25
RE: Is this right or just darn wrong? Dist 8 issues
NO. Wrong. You KNEW they were having their long-standing contest, the onus was on YOU to make sure there was no conflict before asking for a date. YOU. And YOU failed. You could have called Amarillo. Hey, it's only 100 miles away, right?
1. I request a date.
2. I get given the requested date.
3. No body else has applied for this date nor asked for any dates at this point.
4. two months later When Club X asks for the same date and get's it, it's now my fault?
5. WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM?
There are 3 months worth of weekends to choose from in spring. We picked the best weekend that worked out for us. Club X could have picked the weekend before or after. The conflicting dates are supposed to be addressed by the District contest COORDINATOR. That's HIS JOB! I am NOT able to look into a crystal ball and see what the future brings there is no guide or reserved dates by any club. There is no rule that on the third or forth weekend that Club X has their flying event in May. There are no rules at all that anyone can find regarding this issue. That's part of what I am here talking about.
Anyway, you are convinced you are blameless, and everybody else is at fault
I relied on the Contest coordinator to do his job. This is where I failed and will admit to that
I am certain there is no changing your OPINION on this matter. So I will not try to change your opinion. I am however explaining things as they are seen from our perspective so that others may see what goes on here and may be able to learn from my mistake. You have a valid point, in the furture if I do plan other events such as these I will do my own coordinating outside of my District coordinator. I can not count on him to do his job so I guess it's up to ALL the clubs in our district to now deconflict all their events. So why do we have a district coordinator anyway?
Edited to correct a couple spelling errors
