PCM Required?
05-14-2006 | 09:09 AM
#1
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From: Lake County,
CA
PCM Required?
Hi,
Someone was talking at the field yesterday that AMA is thinking about requiring all radios be PCM and all planes be equipped with a safety device to take over the plane if it loses radio contact?
Anyone know anything about this?
Thanks,
KW_Counter
Someone was talking at the field yesterday that AMA is thinking about requiring all radios be PCM and all planes be equipped with a safety device to take over the plane if it loses radio contact?
Anyone know anything about this?
Thanks,
KW_Counter
05-14-2006 | 10:49 AM
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From: Wauseon,
OH
RE: PCM Required?
They are going to have a hard time with that one. I have at least 10 or 12 recievers that are all PPM. I am not likly to change any time soon. Besides that except for fail safe I really can not see any advantage to PCM. And the fail safe I have seen has always caused a major crash.
05-14-2006 | 11:12 AM
#4
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RE: PCM Required?
I think there have been discussion about mandating failsafe shutdown of the motor, we already have this with the turbine regulations. This is not an autopilot, and not a demand for PCM.
Technically, there are ways to add this failsafe to a PPM system with an add on box or a new kind of throttle servo. And yes this would cause people to have to spend money. And yes I think it is a good idea, at least on larger models (like over a 40 size.) Read the news.
Technically, there are ways to add this failsafe to a PPM system with an add on box or a new kind of throttle servo. And yes this would cause people to have to spend money. And yes I think it is a good idea, at least on larger models (like over a 40 size.) Read the news.
05-14-2006 | 11:42 AM
#5
RE: PCM Required?
ORIGINAL: KW_Counter
Hi,
Someone was talking at the field yesterday that AMA is thinking about requiring all radios be PCM and all planes be equipped with a safety device to take over the plane if it loses radio contact?
Anyone know anything about this?
Thanks,
KW_Counter
Hi,
Someone was talking at the field yesterday that AMA is thinking about requiring all radios be PCM and all planes be equipped with a safety device to take over the plane if it loses radio contact?
Anyone know anything about this?
Thanks,
KW_Counter
IIRC in those discussions, I seem to remember that there were several people that sell those attachments for the car people really looking at the extra $$$ that AMA might divert into their direction. OTOH with AMA being in a what I see as a rather difficult severe operational financial loss picture due to loss of membership, even I, the great pessimist, do not expect that even the AMA EC could be in such mental capacity to shoot themselves not only in both feet but in the 'amid-ship' also.
AMA could in no way change the entire industry and as carwood said that would be a "hard time". I have ONE PCM receiver and probably some 20 others. No way BIG BROTHER!!
05-14-2006 | 04:14 PM
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From: St Augustine, FL,
RE: PCM Required?
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
I think there have been discussion about mandating failsafe shutdown of the motor, we already have this with the turbine regulations. This is not an autopilot, and not a demand for PCM.
Technically, there are ways to add this failsafe to a PPM system with an add on box or a new kind of throttle servo. And yes this would cause people to have to spend money. And yes I think it is a good idea, at least on larger models (like over a 40 size.) Read the news.
I think there have been discussion about mandating failsafe shutdown of the motor, we already have this with the turbine regulations. This is not an autopilot, and not a demand for PCM.
Technically, there are ways to add this failsafe to a PPM system with an add on box or a new kind of throttle servo. And yes this would cause people to have to spend money. And yes I think it is a good idea, at least on larger models (like over a 40 size.) Read the news.
The Berg receivers (PPM w. digital signal processing) can be programmed for HOLD mode (servos are held in position of last known good signal) or Fail-safe (servos move and hold to pre-programmed position upon 2 seconds loss of signal). No add-on box or special servos needed. The Spectrum DSS system also has fail-safe on the the throttle channel.
Who would be surprised that technology has outpaced Dave Brown?
Abel
05-14-2006 | 05:19 PM
#7
RE: PCM Required?
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
I think there have been discussion about mandating failsafe shutdown of the motor, we already have this with the turbine regulations. This is not an autopilot, and not a demand for PCM.
Technically, there are ways to add this failsafe to a PPM system with an add on box or a new kind of throttle servo. And yes this would cause people to have to spend money. And yes I think it is a good idea, at least on larger models (like over a 40 size.) Read the news.
I think there have been discussion about mandating failsafe shutdown of the motor, we already have this with the turbine regulations. This is not an autopilot, and not a demand for PCM.
Technically, there are ways to add this failsafe to a PPM system with an add on box or a new kind of throttle servo. And yes this would cause people to have to spend money. And yes I think it is a good idea, at least on larger models (like over a 40 size.) Read the news.
I also think failsafe on the throttle servo is a good idea and somthing the AMA should
really push. as far as makeing it mandatory I would say not yet but maybe in 3 to 5
years. that way if we know the mandate is comming we can prepare for it.
05-18-2006 | 10:36 AM
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From: Zebulon, NC
RE: PCM Required?
Even that technology is not safe. It is partly to blam for the deaths of the married couple in Hungary. The RX reverted to failsafe and the last knoiw good position just happened to put it in a knife edge and the headwind pulled it into the crowd. It also injured 4 other people. I don't think the AMA would mandate this technology that doesn't "intelligently" correct the attitute of your aircraft in the event of radio failure.
05-18-2006 | 03:22 PM
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From: Bowling Green,
KY
RE: PCM Required?
You must set the fail-safe your self. The factory default is the last input. Mine is back to neutral and the engine to idle. Can't blame the fail safe if it isn't used correctly. For less then $30 everybody can have the idle with a plug in unit. Dennis
05-23-2006 | 02:51 PM
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From: kansas city,
MO
RE: PCM Required?
Please,Tell me what failsafe unit you are using?
I checked with Futaba tech support and they do not recommend their fail safe unit for aircraft.
next I checked with MPI and they said theirs would work but again they did not recommend it for aircraft and said use it at your own risk, same for venom all are design for cars or boats.
I would like to add it to me throttle on a ppm system, so at least it would cut the engine down to an idle if the singal is lost.
Wyldman
I checked with Futaba tech support and they do not recommend their fail safe unit for aircraft.
next I checked with MPI and they said theirs would work but again they did not recommend it for aircraft and said use it at your own risk, same for venom all are design for cars or boats.
I would like to add it to me throttle on a ppm system, so at least it would cut the engine down to an idle if the singal is lost.
Wyldman
05-23-2006 | 03:09 PM
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From: Bowling Green,
KY
RE: PCM Required?
Hanger 9 sells one for aircraft, but i know some that have used the car type. The Jo-nall requires that you have fail safe on the throttle to fly there. Mine is set thru the PCM reciever. I fly JR. Dennis
05-23-2006 | 05:12 PM
#13
RE: PCM Required?
I have a fail safe installed in my car, along with a throttle return spring. The former for radio hits and the latter in case I just plain run out of battery. I will not run my car without them for either will prevent a runaway, though it might create an obstacle on track.
However, in my plane, I haven't come up with a good all round failsafe position that I feel comfortable with. Setting for idle seems to be fairly popular, but what if the plane is flying towards a crowd or property? Maybe the throttle will cut out in time, maybe it won't and actually land the plane in an area one wants to miss. I've heard of others that set up for a level, circle pattern, which initially struck me as a good idea at first but then realized that the wind could take the aircraft anywhere, and doesn't work if you are inverted.
I guess my question would be, if the AMA mandated failsafes, and it actually contributed to irreplacible damage, what would be the repercussions?
However, in my plane, I haven't come up with a good all round failsafe position that I feel comfortable with. Setting for idle seems to be fairly popular, but what if the plane is flying towards a crowd or property? Maybe the throttle will cut out in time, maybe it won't and actually land the plane in an area one wants to miss. I've heard of others that set up for a level, circle pattern, which initially struck me as a good idea at first but then realized that the wind could take the aircraft anywhere, and doesn't work if you are inverted.
I guess my question would be, if the AMA mandated failsafes, and it actually contributed to irreplacible damage, what would be the repercussions?
05-24-2006 | 11:52 AM
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From: Bowling Green,
KY
RE: PCM Required?
There will always be what ifs no matter what you do. Setting the fail safe at idle is the safest we can do at this time, and why would the plane be flying toward the people anyway? If you do nothing the plane will go to factory defaults and that is last imput. With FM the engine could go to full throttle and do any number of things in the air. You pick what you think is best and hope it never happens. Dennis
05-24-2006 | 01:33 PM
#15
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RE: PCM Required?
I don't think the AMA would mandate this technology that doesn't "intelligently" correct the attitute of your aircraft in the event of radio failure.
05-24-2006 | 03:20 PM
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From: St Augustine, FL,
RE: PCM Required?
ORIGINAL: sfsjkid
I have a fail safe installed in my car, along with a throttle return spring. The former for radio hits and the latter in case I just plain run out of battery. I will not run my car without them for either will prevent a runaway, though it might create an obstacle on track.
However, in my plane, I haven't come up with a good all round failsafe position that I feel comfortable with. Setting for idle seems to be fairly popular, but what if the plane is flying towards a crowd or property? Maybe the throttle will cut out in time, maybe it won't and actually land the plane in an area one wants to miss. I've heard of others that set up for a level, circle pattern, which initially struck me as a good idea at first but then realized that the wind could take the aircraft anywhere, and doesn't work if you are inverted.
I guess my question would be, if the AMA mandated failsafes, and it actually contributed to irreplacible damage, what would be the repercussions?
I have a fail safe installed in my car, along with a throttle return spring. The former for radio hits and the latter in case I just plain run out of battery. I will not run my car without them for either will prevent a runaway, though it might create an obstacle on track.
However, in my plane, I haven't come up with a good all round failsafe position that I feel comfortable with. Setting for idle seems to be fairly popular, but what if the plane is flying towards a crowd or property? Maybe the throttle will cut out in time, maybe it won't and actually land the plane in an area one wants to miss. I've heard of others that set up for a level, circle pattern, which initially struck me as a good idea at first but then realized that the wind could take the aircraft anywhere, and doesn't work if you are inverted.
I guess my question would be, if the AMA mandated failsafes, and it actually contributed to irreplacible damage, what would be the repercussions?
IMAA apparently had similar concerns over exposure of their members during event safety inspections, and the potential for transferring liability to them. Last I heard, the owner/pilot was to himself conduct such inspections under the watchful eye of an event official. Official to witness that owner made the inspection, but owner retains full liability for inspection/certifying the structural integrity and airworthiness of the model.
The possible legal implications should be carefully considered when 'mandating' anything safety. The exposure an AMA CD has every time he is required to make a safety call at an event seems to me a dinner bell for hungry litigious vermin.
Abel
05-24-2006 | 10:07 PM
#17
RE: PCM Required?
ORIGINAL: abel_pranger
Good question. Don't have the answer, but by way of illustrating what could happen, AMA lost an injury lawsuit in a control line speed model incident where the the plane ripped away from the control lines restraining it and seriously injured the pilot's crewman. Largest judgment ever against AMA, AFAIK. A factor contributing to AMA's loss of this case was the finding that the pull test mandated by AMA overstressed the model structure and contributed to the failure that caused the accident.
IMAA apparently had similar concerns over exposure of their members during event safety inspections, and the potential for transferring liability to them. Last I heard, the owner/pilot was to himself conduct such inspections under the watchful eye of an event official. Official to witness that owner made the inspection, but owner retains full liability for inspection/certifying the structural integrity and airworthiness of the model.
The possible legal implications should be carefully considered when 'mandating' anything safety. The exposure an AMA CD has every time he is required to make a safety call at an event seems to me a dinner bell for hungry litigious vermin.
Abel
ORIGINAL: sfsjkid
I have a fail safe installed in my car, along with a throttle return spring. The former for radio hits and the latter in case I just plain run out of battery. I will not run my car without them for either will prevent a runaway, though it might create an obstacle on track.
However, in my plane, I haven't come up with a good all round failsafe position that I feel comfortable with. Setting for idle seems to be fairly popular, but what if the plane is flying towards a crowd or property? Maybe the throttle will cut out in time, maybe it won't and actually land the plane in an area one wants to miss. I've heard of others that set up for a level, circle pattern, which initially struck me as a good idea at first but then realized that the wind could take the aircraft anywhere, and doesn't work if you are inverted.
I guess my question would be, if the AMA mandated failsafes, and it actually contributed to irreplacible damage, what would be the repercussions?
I have a fail safe installed in my car, along with a throttle return spring. The former for radio hits and the latter in case I just plain run out of battery. I will not run my car without them for either will prevent a runaway, though it might create an obstacle on track.
However, in my plane, I haven't come up with a good all round failsafe position that I feel comfortable with. Setting for idle seems to be fairly popular, but what if the plane is flying towards a crowd or property? Maybe the throttle will cut out in time, maybe it won't and actually land the plane in an area one wants to miss. I've heard of others that set up for a level, circle pattern, which initially struck me as a good idea at first but then realized that the wind could take the aircraft anywhere, and doesn't work if you are inverted.
I guess my question would be, if the AMA mandated failsafes, and it actually contributed to irreplacible damage, what would be the repercussions?
IMAA apparently had similar concerns over exposure of their members during event safety inspections, and the potential for transferring liability to them. Last I heard, the owner/pilot was to himself conduct such inspections under the watchful eye of an event official. Official to witness that owner made the inspection, but owner retains full liability for inspection/certifying the structural integrity and airworthiness of the model.
The possible legal implications should be carefully considered when 'mandating' anything safety. The exposure an AMA CD has every time he is required to make a safety call at an event seems to me a dinner bell for hungry litigious vermin.
Abel
That is one of the main reasons that when I CD an event, NO safety inspections are made by me or my workers. At an IMAA event, the pilot makes the inspection by the checklist. It is his say to the airplane's ability to fly. After all he signs that the airplane has been flown at least 6 times (IMAA) and that both he and the airplane can perform the maneuvers to be done. (AMA) At an AMA event, that signature is HIS certification. Of course if something is obviously very unsafe, as CD I can ground the aircraft and if I do so, it will be GROUNDED for the ENTIRE event. NO appeals.
There will always be what ifs no matter what you do. Setting the fail safe at idle is the safest we can do at this time, and why would the plane be flying toward the people anyway? If you do nothing the plane will go to factory defaults and that is last imput. With FM the engine could go to full throttle and do any number of things in the air. You pick what you think is best and hope it never happens.
Dennis
Dennis
05-25-2006 | 12:14 AM
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From: St Augustine, FL,
RE: PCM Required?
ORIGINAL: Hossfly
<snip>
Well Able P, here I go again P...g you O. Simply because I am agreeing with YOU 101%
<snip>
Well Able P, here I go again P...g you O. Simply because I am agreeing with YOU 101%
Abel
05-25-2006 | 08:53 AM
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From: Bowling Green,
KY
RE: PCM Required?
Our runway is 800ft, when we turn cross wind there's no one that far away. Your right about the plane, but I would always give the plane away rather then hurt someone. My fail safe is set so I don't have to walk to far to get the pieces. Dennis
