The definition of parkflyer has never been nailed down to my satisfaction. Someone mentioned 2 pounds or less and capable of less than 60 mph? That's way too much plane, what does a 2 pound plane weigh when it hits something at 60 mph?. I would draw the line at a plane not capable of cracking a 4 foot square window pane when flown into it at full throttle. whatever physical limits would make up such a machine should be about as safe, if not safer than an out of control kite.

The AMA can scramble around and try to recruit PFers all they want, the end result won't make much difference, if membership gets small enough, the AMA will just have to tighten the belt and shrink back to a size that the membership can support.

Naw, He wasn't unhappy, In fact, he was gigglin' and laughing about what a POS it was. He even questioned his own sanity for bringing it along.

Bill, AMA 4720

Yep, 2 lbs and 60 mph is way too much kinetic energy for a missile in a park setting. I am uncomfortable in that venue flying anything more than about 12 oz, and a slo-flyer or 3Der at that. Seems to me that other park users (and park officials) are much more likely to be accepting of models that are comparable in weight and speed, and so no more threatening, than flying objects thay are used to. Examples include Frisbees at 175 gm (~ 6 1/4 oz) and footballs at 400-430 gm (14-15 oz). Hard-thrown passes by pro QBs can travel at 40-60 mph. I sure wouldn't want to get hit by one. The AMA E-flite proposal, if your are right about the figures and I think you are, would allow models carrying several times the wallop of the most extreme example one might conjure up involving a football.

Abel

Problem is, no matter where the line of definition is drawn, people will still cross it. That is one reason why this whole subject of setting up special rates for special categories of modeling just won't work, because the lines of distinction are unenforceble for the most part.

One consideration for AMA to court Park Flyers might be to just retain membership? My dad let his club membership lapse. Driving a couple of minutes up the street to toss a park flyer suits his itch to fly for now. What happens next year? Well, really don't need the AMA any more; don't belong to a club.... AMA could be looking ahead to people who fit this description? You look for a price point to keep people in who other wise no longer see a need to be in the AMA.

I don't suppose I will be able to tell you guys what happens when I am getting ready to leave the field any more. I have been called on the carpet for being Argumentative, Bashing, and using Profanity. Sorry if I stepped on your feelings.

As to why the AMA needs Park Fliers ... They (we) don't. Plain, Simple, and to the point. We need model airplane enthusiasts. We don't need a tiered membership. We don't need a class system (even though we already have one ... kinda-sorta). We don't need people who fly things other than mainstream model airplanes flying at different venues. We don't need a second level of Insurance. You should either get in, or get out, or just get out of the way. I personally don't care what you paid for your model airplane. I used to fly with a $6.95 Ramrod 250, and a $16.95 engine, and a Tatone tick-off timer, and DT fuses. I didn't have 30 bucks in the whole thing, but I was an AMA member. The price of your model has not one thing to do with you joining. Pay up, or dry up. I don't care which.

Bill, AMA 4720

A lot of guys fit your dads' description. A lot of guys can look back at the big, and more dangerous planes that need a club field and insurance to fly, and simply say, "been there, done that....this small stuff is just as much fun in its' own way and ten times less expensive". There is nothing the AMA can do short of giving membership away that would entice guys in this category to ante up. All I need AMA for anymore is the 2 or 3 sanctioned events that I participate at per year, otherwise I'm happy to just burn fuel and electrons at the local hay field. All the local clubs have become too restrictive, and just another expense that I don't need. The entertainment value that being at a club field used to have just isn't there anymore with all these cookie cutter ARFS that show up any more. Original designs and planes with unusual configurations are a rare sight now, nearly extinct. I go to the club field not only to entertain, but to be entertained by others, not to watch a limited selection planes that were built in a factory 15,000 miles away. The loss of interest by current or past AMA members has its' roots in the issues I just brought up, and the AMA will never be able to reverse this trend.

Well, you got my full agreement there, Stick. I still believe that AMA should look into supporting clubs that mainly fly in parks (and advise how best to work with the city on such things), similar to Slope Soaring clubs that survive on open hilltops. Specialized membership is just a can of worms.

Don't worry about it, I've had a post zapped as well here. We all step on our tongues sometimes.

There is no answer to that problem. People that won't act responsibly won't follow reasonable guidelines for safety. Such guidelines are only meaningful for responsible people, and that to me means most modelers, whether AMA members or not. The issue I was responding to had to do with the responsibility of the guidelines themselves, and I think AMA put too little thought into what sort of models are appropriate to fly in parks, where the turf has to be shared with other park users. I see what is marketed as park flyers by the likes of Mountain Models, and they fit into my concept of what fits. I have their 'Tantrum' covered and ready for fitting of R/C and Hacker B20 motor/gearbox - weight of airframe and all components including battery will total 10.5-11 oz. They and other mfgrs seem to well understand what a PF is, and AMA would do well to learn from them - that is, if AMA should be in the PF arena at all, and I do have some serious reservations about that.
PFs tend to be independents, and AMA has an utterly club-centric view of model aviation, and demonstrated collective mindset that organized, exclusionary clubs are the only way to fly (and for AMA to stay in business). That, along with the view of most public entities that the public parks they administer should remain open to the public and not privatized by clubs, etc. are the primary reasons AMA's push to get into the PF market will fail.

Abel

The world is changing by the square by the day. Regardless of MY PERSONAL DESIRES, if AMA wants to survive, then AMA needs to get interested in electrics as the modeling public along with all the newcomers are doing. Electrics do nothing for me however they are tomorrow's power plants. However I have already predicted my thoughts for AMA's future which will come to pass because the average modeler doesn't give a da_n whether AMA flies or falls.

Got this today from the Club's CD for our annual Pattern meet.

>>>>> "The 5th Annual Jetero Pattern Classic on June 03-04, 2004 in Houston Texas is now history and proved to be a great success. We had hoped for 20 contestants and ended up with 26 contestants. We had contestants from all over Texas and Louisiana - a major regional event and a traveler as far away as Hancock, New York !!. " //snip//
"This regional event featured both glow fueled and electric powered airplanes. Electric airplanes took the top spots in FAI, and Advanced classes. There were no crashes or mid air collisions which was really good news and no one was injured by props."
<<<<<<<

The guys flying these electrics will be flying at the NATs and they are the guys that set the pace.

It takes a while but big changes are going to happen in this sport of model aviation. Glow and Gas will be here for many many years but will soon be the lesser of power plants.
The new blood lives in the fancy additions around the urban areas. Like when I was a kid I saw and fell in love with CL by watching those big "OLDER" high-school fellows flying in the baseball field or whatever was available. Today's youth will have that same interest in RC foamies, etc.
In such case that AMA should actually desire to return to and remain an organization for modelers, then they need to get their lard-butts down where the action and current trends are!. [:-]

aint that the truth, hoss, aint it the truth.

Nope, I didn't step on my tongue. I was just calling it like I saw it. Some Whiner got to a moderator, and the post got yanked.

Bill, AMA 4720

You should care, though. Because people have chosen not to pay up. AMA's numbers are drying up, year after year, just look at the membership numbers. You either change with the times, or become irrelevant. And at least AMA is trying to change with these changing times.

(By the way, responded to your PM. Not sure if you saw it, the system never notifies me I have a PM-- I just happened to see it at the top of the screen.)

Josh

Well, the AMA is reaping what it has sown. At the national level, the AMA has been adamant about concealing its existence, and model aviation, from the general public. Very strange behavior for an organization said to promote model aviation! Guess what--the park fliers are part of that uninformed general public. They don't know about the AMA, they don't know anything about model aviation other than what they see around them. So our leadership is scrabbling around trying to figure out how to compensate for years of foolish neglect.

Somehow, I doubt "inability to become a household name" is the same as "concealing its existence." AMA hasn't been hiding, they just aren't interesting enough for the average Joe to take notice.

Of course, some REAL publicity couldn't hurt. I remember seeing some modeling on TV a couple times. The shows were pretty cool. However, it didn't cover enough of a "spread" of modeling, so it became repetitive after a bit. You always need stuff for both the beginner and expert, and you need to get all the different aspects, such as Patternship, 3D, heli, Scale, Slope-soaring, etc. The hobby is so huge that it frustrated to see them showing another Scale fun-fly.

Of course, TV time is not an easy affair. It's a big gamble that requires a bit of dough up-front. AMA does not have near the resources to do this. It would have to be a pretty enthusiastic club who wanted to do something big and get the interest of those already in the TV industry. Don't hold your breath. The AMA DVD might open the door to an oppurtunity or two down the road, though.

The AMA has nothing to offer the guy who just wants to fly his 10 oz ARF at the park, might as well offer a nun a cigarette. There is no point in the AMA launching some noble effort to recoup or recruit membership. There is nothing wrong with declining membership, the interest in cheap insurance to make flying at club fields possible will never entirely go away. Can anyone here forecast how low the membership level would have to go to cause the AMA to go belly up? What if they did go belly up, would that keep anyone from enjoying this hobby? Not I.

Wanna bet. Who do you think would be directly involved in enforcing RC flying if the AMA couldn't handle the job? Simple, the FAA since it's their airspace. This means the FAA could easily mandate restrictions directly to the states with one swift blow.

As far as AMA's break even point, I think they are there right now or getting real close. Either way it doesn't matter, they need members.

Heh...FAA would certainly come up with a fast solution. Anything under 1.5 lbs is unregulated. Fly wherever the city lets you (and if they don't...tough). Anything over that weight has to be cleared by us. Bring it to one of our offices along with a check for $250 for services rendered. You'll be allowed to fly it wherever the city lets you (and if you get sued...that's your problem).

Anyone get the feeling that many of the new generation are a tad spoiled by AMA's past accomplishments? You don't miss the water 'till the well runs dry.

Ya, I just see it now, the FAA eagerly jumps in to regulate model planes and the DMV jumps in to regulate RC cars, maybe the Coast Guard will want control over RC boats, too?

THE SKY IS FALLING!!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

Nah, that's just another one of my foamies crashing. Dang things don't have any lasting power. False alarm!

Yep, you got a reply too. I kinda miss Home.

Bill, AMA 4720

I don't have a PM from ya, just checked. But I guess part of your PM explained you don't live in Tennessee anymore. Just realized that. Shoot me an email sometime, [email protected]

Josh

Uh, the folks that are actually enforcing it now? The public freq Dont Interfere rules, why would that change if the AMA went poof.

The AMA restrictions on it's club members dont mean squat to non members flying around... but the FAA & FCC regs hold the AMA by the brassones. AMA does not 'handle the job' now, it hanldes it for its members only.

I was just reading that story again about the sad and deadly crash in Hungary. There was one guy in there that said Hungary does not have an AMA organization, however he said he tries to follow the AMA rules when he can. He even said he's not the only one, others TRY to follow suit. Perhaps this will put some perspective to some of you guys how important it is to have such an organization like the AMA.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4274232/tm.htm

The point of the matter is that the FAA will not allow rogue RC flying and wait for a disaster like that to occur, they are much more advanced then the Hungarian gov't, believe me I know first hand, I just spent the last few days in DC meeting with them. As you can read in that post the guy was arrested and held till they sifted through all the information, only goes to show you what kind of control a gov't will take into their hands if there is no organization to step up to the plate and to support "the accused".

I can assure you combat that if the AMA folds or goes under the FAA WILL step in and take over where they failed and it's not fiction, it's fact. The American gov't is rather particular about what's flying around in their airspace without control and order. And the FCC doesn't want to take the full load of the blame seeing these planes are flying around on the frequencies which we "borrow" from the FCC. This is why we have the coast guard to protect our waterways and police to protect our roads. There are no aerial police to control 40% planes buzzing around in the same airspace as other airplanes, thus they will just throw up restrictions.