littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Actually I assure you that would not necessarily be the case. I have witnessed such actions taken against a member without due process yet the membership at large did little. There is an overwhelming mindset that one must just kneel and kiss the ring...sometimes that doesn't happen and the fearful ones placate "I had to so you should also… everything will be ok…just give in and do as they wish�




One thing that has been unsettling in this exchange is the overwhelming support of the club’s board at the expense of empathy of an individual. Here in the US of A we should hold the “organization� to higher standards or we may find each and every one of us on the receiving end of a misfeasor’s whim.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

It bothers me as well that few picked that one up also...

Liberator

Well, I can tell you if that were to happen in our club, the fur would fly.
I guess my point is this. If this is actually how it is in the SAMS club (meaning the way John has described it,) then the members deserve what they get, and John is in a better place because he is no longer involved. Yet he still stirs the S*$% Pot. I would have let it go if for no other reason than they don't deserve my attention.
Trust me, there has to be more to the story.

timothy thompson

My Feedback: (1)

this is why i dont belong to a club

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Very well, but don't overlook he was/is not the only one with a chity stick stirring the pot...although he may have been one of those to get the chity end of the stick We need to be honest here…we all had a turn stirring.

JUGFLIER

Lets see what your buddy john's crazy has admitted to.
1. John Casey was expelled by a vote of the board without membership notification or approval.
2. Two other members, one a founding member were also expelled in same fashion.
3. Prior to this, SAMs has never expelled members.
4. These expulsions were not taken by vote or notice of the club prior.
5.He admitted to the vote by the club membership to extend the runway.
6. He stated the board decided it wasn't worth persuing.
7. He stated that the obstacle to the extension was an environmental study that the board decided it didnt want to spend the money on.
8.He affirmed that the application was never forwarded to the government entity for approval.

Other points made by John Casey not refuted.
1. The board purchased insurance for themselves, against a vote of the club.
2. A member of the board resigned after being caught having shot down another persons aircraft intentionally.
3. SAMs field was shut down by AMA on account of this act.
4. That member was not expelled by the board.
5. Three times the board tried to raise dues, three times defeated by the membership.
6. His car was keyed at the field.
7. He was threatened by club members.
8. The club newsletter was pulled from the website after it was brought to our attention by John C.
9. ect.


[/quote]


I made this post to summarize the facts for all to see. There have been a few additions and corrections on the second part since then. Lets not get lost in this. In the case of John Casey there is no question he has made a strong defense of himself and the posts of Johns cazy have been very lacking. If this is a kangaroo court there is no question the sympathies lie with John C. I don't want to make this a pesonal issue for me. I wanted my parting words with Johns cazy not be of a caustic nature that we all might regret.

There is no question John Casey wasn't given a fair shake. I hope the great thing that comes out of this thread and others, is to help people see that they need to stay engaged when it comes to their club. Our founding fathers said " Absolute power corupts absolutely". The problem is human nature. People who are on boards that seemingly don't have an ingrained set of right and wrong rules, can be succeptable to letting this kind of absolute power corupt them. The way to strengthen and preserve the leadership of your club is not to elect those that are "available", "outspoken", "dominant", or any of the other traits that are commonly cited. But the most enduring qualities for the leadership of your club is humility, a desire TO SERVE, and a person of great moral personal character.

In case any of you missed it, there were posts by Kalen, who was also expelled with John Casey, corroborating John's posts. Some of which i took the liberty of re-posting. He was a founding member of sam.

JUGFLIER

Let me turn that argument around. If SAMs has 200+ members and they all hate John Casey and think he is a bald faced liar, Well what would happen if they all lined up in this forum to let their voices be heard? The deafening silence from the SAMs club as a whole is devastating to Jimmy S. Can John's Crazy not muster one corroborating witness?

John Casey has had corroborating witnesses.

JUGFLIER

By the way, this thread does not need to be shut down. We have accomplished more in this thread than in any others. The truth only hurts bad people.

Hossfly

The basic subject of all these SAM / Casey threads and this case history, may be the creation of something evolving from another person-in-power with a well meaning objective. Yet, that objective could just as well open the door to self -destruction of many AMA Chartered Clubs through enablement of more dictatorship personalities.

From the AMA EC Minutes of the last EC meeting: Emphasis added.
>>>>
". Hanson is suggesting that the affirmations signed by the club officers include statements that they will operate according to the provisions of their bylaws and that they will maintain a current copy of the bylaws at AMA Headquarters. Headquarters will refine its list of suggested items to include in club bylaws, into a list of items clubs must include in their bylaws. The club president will be required to sign an affirmation that their bylaws cover the items AMA requires, the club will operate according to the provisions of their bylaws and will maintain a current copy of bylaws at AMA Headquarters; failure to follow the bylaws could invalidate a clubs charter. These affirmations must be signed and returned to headquarters with each year’s charter request. Headquarters will inform clubs that these mandates will become effective with the 2008 charter renewals."
<<<<

Gentlemen: Here we see where a few power-hungry individuals, out of thousands, are creating a situation that is developing into AMA leaders becoming more and more into thinking like legislators.
Once AMA starts requiring clubs to use AMA written Bylaws, I forsee a mass exodus of clubs from the Charter program or accept much of the SAM situation. AMA's Bylaws gives the power to the Board.
You have a chance this year to put a stop to this nonsense. One good member of RCU and a contributor here has already broken the code of a recent thread of mine here in this forum, and taken positive action. Can you do the same?

I will soon be adding another thread evidencing where AMA is trying to get more power through additions into the insurance policy which is tending to drop in cost, and thus reducing AMA's excuse for some of its current "legislation". [>:]

edit; add underline code

Liberator

"Let me turn that argument around. If SAMs has 200+ members and they all hate John Casey and think he is a bald faced liar, Well what would happen if they all lined up in this forum to let their voices be heard? The deafening silence from the SAMs club as a whole is devastating to Jimmy S. Can John's Crazy not muster one corroborating witness?

John Casey has had corroborating witnesses. "

Actually not really. John has I think had 2 people step up. Not really a suprise seeing as how there were supposedly a total of 3 people booted from the club. So John has himself and the other two guys.

As far as people from the other side (club side) what is more likely? That the leadership has asked that no one else get involved in this discussion? Or is it possible that no one else in the club is aware of the thread? Or is it possible that everyone else in the club is so apathetic that they just don't care?

To the first point I would imagine that the club leadership is doing their version of damage control. This would speak to why club newsletters that were available were taken off the web. I know they said that they took old newsletters down to save bandwidth, but frankly thats a load.

As I said, if John had people willing to rally to his side from the club, they would speak up. I just don't see it happening. I don't mean they would or should speak up here, but at the meetings where it counts.

BUTCHIEBOY

Liberator, it is hard for me to be so paraniod to believe a BOD or leadership of a model airplane club could wield that much control over a +200 membership. Most people I have come in contact with on the club level are intelligent people, successful in their life pursuits, and not the type who would allow supposed injustices that John C. purports to be done. I think what we have here is a pissed off individual, who looks to have made some bad choices, and the BOD and membership have moved on in their lives and pursuit of their hobby interests. I REITERATE, BECAUSE HE SAYS IT DOES NOT MAKE IT SO!!! Here in the old USA, you are innocent until proven guilty, and a one sided story does not establish quilt to me. To believe a unilateral argument presented here is foolish and not prudent. I believe the majority of this club and BOD in question could careless what this individual says, and are probably enjoying life without what looks like a whole lot of turmoil!


[8D][8D]

JUGFLIER

Some good points Liberator.

JUGFLIER

Horace, your post scares me. I guess i can tolerate reccomendations, but micro-managing, that's another thing.

The Ponz

Gentleman, as I am also a founding member of the SAM, I must finally enter this thread, to give my side of this sorry affair.

Is John Casey telling the truth about the events of the SAM? Yes, I believe he has presented his side of the issues in a clear and correct manner.

The SAM board has taken it upon itself to rule the club with power the original founders of the club never intended. The original constitution stated the power was with the membership. The ruling board was to administer the memberships wishes. Sadly, the recent SAM board decided once they were elected they would do as they pleased. If you were in the minority and you questioned anything, you were told to go join another club.

When the atmosphere at the flying site and at club meetings became intolerable to me (ex. verbal and physical abuse). I decided to join another club.

In my opinion, John Casey is an excellent modeler and flyer. He is a respected member of the Woodland/Davis Club and holds the position of Saftey Officer. I state these facts because I too belong to that club.

With this said, I wish John would stop posting these negative post on RCU. Every time I read the new threads, it brings up bad memories about the Club I was so proud to be a part of, first in starting and then as a member for twenty years.

In regard to the SAM, I wish them well.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Thanks... It needed to be said! Until someone has seen it up close and personal it is hard to accept.

JUGFLIER

Thankyou for the post. It has been long over due.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

One thing that seems to be overlooked when there are those here condemning the SAM club for "not posting their side of the story", is the fact that club has been sued and may have other cases pendings, and may have been silenced by their representing lawyers. It is not fair to take the word of one, and use the actions of the other to make your case. Besides, it is not for us to decide. Like some have already pointed out, we are not the judge nor the jury, we just have to take these events played out before us and use them to our benefit, applying some of these life lessons to our own relationships.
There are in reality, THREE sides to every story... the one in the middle has the closest resemblence to the truth.

Tommy

Hossfly

Doc, you do make several very nice points, so very gentlemanly in approach. However no lawyer can silence the club spokesman from so stating, "We now are engaged in litigation reference cases A, B, C etc., etc. Our legal advisers have requested that we issue no public statements reference these proceedings. We request your patience. Thank You."
That stops the clatter and stops and the "...may have..." speculations.

One client would have been 5 times X richer if his legal-beagal had not been such a smart-butt this past Wednesday. Ol' East TX uneducated country boy shot his case full of holes.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

not always...sometimes the truth is given right from the start. All too often the rational you just posted is used to slight the honest. I have always had a real problem with the errant analysis that your statement fosters.

Conversely it is more likely and should be strongly considered that silence and/or deception are the norm when guilty.

If there is litigation between the two factions I think both sides would be equally silenced.


Why not stop casting aspersions so I can stop countering such! Let the parties speak for themselves.

Had not a few of us weighed in to maintain the scales here, most of you guys would have just lynched JC without any regard to what the truth really is. Again, here, as likely was the case there, the mob mentality would be the order of the day!

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

Hoss,
You are right, no lawyer can silence them, but in a nasty legal battle everything that is said, or written, will become fodder for the legal system. Most of the time it means nothing, but even in a Teflon room if you fling enough crap something will eventually stick. In most cases the when the lawyers get involved it is better just to remain quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. The fact remains that in these situations no one wins. We all look upon them, sometimes enjoyingly while munching popcorn, but in the end it is just a train wreck that leaves everyone stained.
In the words of a very great spokesman and judge, "let ye among thee who is without fault cast the first stone".

I feel for John C, but cannot help but believe that his hands are no cleaner than those he accuses, but then again I am not his judge nor his council. I have said this numerous times in relation to these threads, people are humans, and humans cannot get along. As unfortunate as it seems, it is a sad fact. When people cannot get along, it is best they part company. Neither has to be right, they should just agree that being together is counterproductive and will only create more agony. I remember seeing the picture of the guy standing up against the tank in Teenaman Square several years ago in China. I don't know his story, but I have only heard rumors that he met his demise. When he stepped in front of the tank, he probably thought there was enough humanity and compassion in there to kepp him alive, but he was probably proven wrong.
Tommy

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

I would disagree with you. Take any situation, put the parties together and they all having wittnessed the same events will have a different story and perception of it. We see and judge things based upon our character and experiences. No two people are exactly alike.. Of course you may be slighted by the fact that you see a club governing body as some evil group willing to impose their will on the poor defenseless members, while I see a club that was doing what they saw best for their club based on the information they had. I bet $10 that neither one of us has it right, of course there is no way to prove it, and it does not mean anything anyways, so my bet is pretty safe...


But I did not come on here to hang JC nor to side with him, so as far as I am concerned, I did no damage to him. I simply gave him my POV, which was if he let it go, enjoyed his hobby and forgot the past, in the long run he would be happier and the better for it. I am not your enemy lilcrankshaft, I do not even know you, and I am certainly not one to pick a fight, and I agree that we can disagree. I am entitled to believe that neither party can be totally right, while neither can be totally wrong. It is all a matter of perception.
Tommy Yates
AMA #1469

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Maybe we are talking semantics...the truth is definitely perception based and of course reality can be quite different than the truth... My point... John Casey may have spoken the truth… as he seen it...the reality probably is something a little different but yet he was not being untruthful...Do you understand what I mean?

Transpose truth with reality in your previous statement and I will agree otherwise no. I felt that statement left unchecked would leave a mark on an otherwise apparently truthful account of the events from his perspective…simple?

Hossfly

Right on up to 911. "they jest some good ol' boys"
yeah, jes' watch them fellows fly them thar airliners thru them thar buildings! That's purty good flyin'. Almost as good as we do this hyar 3D stuff.

boy thet wuz excitin'. Wonder whut theys gonna' does tomorrow?

Where does it all start and where does it all end, Yates? I forget the essay or whatever but a choice line of the author stating about "They' came for these XX then these XX, right on down to "Then they came for me and there was no one left to care."

Somewhere the line has to be drawn. Hundreds of thousands of our very best have stayed on the action side of that line to protect those like you. Listen to your news today, yesterday, and tomorrow and see the garbage lack of will of Vietnam repeating itself all over. From two individuals to to multiple nations, the weak will fall and it's not always the weak in fighting force, that is the WEAK! A WILL to win is a most important attribute.

JUGFLIER

And knowing when and where and why to fight is wisdom.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

I want to thank those involved in this post, when I started the post about AMA pdf -535-A,

I did not start it to Slam Sam, never even mentioned them,
others where hell bent on defending the organization and attacking me
so the story was told.
.................................................. .................................................. ..............................................
"it is hard for me to be so paraniod to believe a BOD or leadership
of a model airplane club could wield that much control over a +200 membership.
.................................................. .................................................. ..................

If you don't learn from history it will repeat itself......

The Gov't of China has over a BILLION people "under its control",
with over 300,000 "DISSENTENTS" imprisoned.

I don't have the numbers on North Korea. I'm sure they would be UP in arms if the could,
thier is a big difference in being SILENT..... and being SILENCED.

I won't wast my time attacking Jim Smith personally like he attacked me,
SAM is the only club he has ever been in,he just does'nt not know any better.

IF you can find the RC reports Dec 2000 I'm there and this will back up what was said about racing at SAM.

During this discussion I did not just rail on MR crazy, I showed proof of a board run amuk,
example $306 dollars for dinners for the officers???? POSTED ON THEIR WEBSITE.

I know he has no Idea thats completely wrong to
Have dinner on the clubs dime, but thats him...not the rest of us,
Pylons up 24/7............. no club does that I know of. just for the reasons cited.

I will not be able to Change anything at SAMs ....... just like the old USSR, they are going to have to do it themselves.
They are going to have to see for themselves that what they did and are doing is wrong for the members and the hobby.

Don't pull this thread David...let people read it so they can learn that this can happen in thier club too.