littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

.

Dave Bowles

My Feedback: (7)

I would say yes only if said coverage , covered the Landowner and Club and only for non-events.

And once again, the Landowner has the ultimate say as to who will fly on thier land , the AMA has no say , they only state they will not cover non AMA members and will not cover for liablity incedents caused by non AMA members. And to be part of a Chartered CLub you must be a member, and to participate in an AMA sanctioned event you must be a member.

Bill Vargas

My Feedback: (5)

Yes for the every day, Saturday and Sunday flyer types.

A BIG FAT NO,,, to allow those "with the other insurance" to enter
AMA Sanctioned Events. I pay my $60.00 bucks just like all the rest and then some to Compete,,, No AMA, No competing in AMA Sanctioned Events.


BV

J_R

The AMA does not make that decision. The Chartered Clubs and/or landlords make the decision as to what insurance is required to fly at a Chartered Club field. Do you want the AMA to dictate to the clubs which insurance is acceptable? That would be necessary before your question has meaning.

In AMA sanctioned events, no mention of insurance is made. You must, however be an AMA member to participate.

To fly at Muncie, an AMA membership is required.

Hossfly

>>>>>>>>>
Should the AMA recognize other insures if equal in coverages
>>>>>>>>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by J_R


In AMA sanctioned events, no mention of insurance is made. You must, however be an AMA member to participate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just plain silly.
__________________
Mark

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Horrace,

Couldn't have said it better myself.

"Just plain silly?" If you are not a member of an organization, what makes you think you're entitled to the benefits that organization provides?

J_R

Of course it is silly, but, then, agian, it is true. Is it not Horrace?

Since you are the elder spokeman, is it not true, also, that before AMA supplied insurance as a benefit, that AMA membership was required at AMA sanctioned events to participate?

JR

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

I don't think AMA should accept third party or independent insurers. If you join AMA you need the insurance provided with the membership. This will greatly reduce the red tape.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

I am a club officer and have been for a long time. Part of my job ant that of every club officer is to insure that the general membership are current AMA members. This is a requirement on BOTH of our leases, not set by AMA but decided by the land owner. Let's not discuss if that was a tool one of our folks handed them, because that is not the issue.

One of the benefits I see with the AMA card is that it certifies to me (and others who care) that a specified level of insurance coverage is available and cannot be canceled for lack of payment. Not only that but the carrier is known and recognized. Sure Progressive, State Farm, Farmers, and Dairyland Mutual are all well known and recognized, but are their policies? By being an AMA club, we pass the work load of research and insurance control to the AMA rather than handling it ourselves.

Many clubs have had to present the AMA policy to some governmental agency to get a flying field. I would hate to have to present several different documents because I KNOW what the bureaucrats will do. In every single case where they are presented multiple policies, they will always pick the one that feathers their perceived nest the best. It is human nature. What that really means is that all control would be given away.

Sorry guys but the correct answer has to be a resounding NO for the sake of the organized clubs and the hobby.

dant-RCU

My Feedback: (3)

I am also a club officer and have been for a long time - too long it seems too. However, we own our own field so as far as insurance goes I guess we could pick whatever we wanted.

We are an AMA chartered club and we get our liability coverage as part of the charter - doesn't cost any extra since we do not also need "site owners insurance" per se. We do carry additional loss and vandalism insurance with an outside company. Costs us about $500/yr and I do not know the amount. I do know that we could not get $2.5 Million in liability for the amount of our charter fee.

We require anyone flying at our field to have an AMA or MAAC card. That is also our choice. You can have whatever other card you want but - no AMA/MAAC - no fly. We are selfish - we do intend to do whatever we can in protect our assets. If you show up and our field with your AMA/MAAC card then there is no question that you are covered and the biggest thing here is that we know that your insurance has not been canceled for any reason (including not making the payment).

As an aside, Oklahoma (like many states) requires you to have proof of insurance to renew your car license tag. No insurance - no tag. HOWEVER, people will buy insurance the month their tag is due, get the tag, then cancel. Now, the state is SUPPOSED to be notified by the insurance companies when someone does this and the STATE is supposed to go after the non-insured person. Anyone care to make a wager how often this happens.

Question: if other forms of insurance are acceptable then who is going to do the administration effort to insure that each Jim and Jane that shows up with whatever insurance card is still valid? Neither myself or any of our other officers either have the time or will want to do this.

Obviously, I am a no vote on this.

Maybe I am just getting too old but I am having a problem with trying to figure out what is wrong with the insurance situation with the AMA. Yes, I can agree that there are areas within the organization that could stand some "rework" (what large major organization or government couldn't) but the insurance does seem to be a "no brainer".

Dunno, maybe I am just confused.


Sign me out as "Confused in Tulsa"..

Live Wire

IO can not beleive that is Do it our way or not at at all. They hobby has changed . DO OR DIE

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

I seriously doubt that any of us have ever suggested anything like that. Rather we have all said that as club officers we refuse to throw away our precious free time doing stupid tasks and so have adopted a uniform proof of insurance and moved on. Since you don't contribute (as can be seen by your 'handle'), I fail to see why it should bother you.

Let me put it in simpler words for you. We fly with our friends and the group has acquired a flying site from a land owner who set down a specific set of requirements the bunch of us must meed. Our friends picked several people to represent the group to the world called club officers. They assigned this group the job of making the land owner happy with the association. Us officers agreed to do the job if everyone would agree to make it simple. I still get to fly and I don't have to know all the insurance carriers in the country or how to tell if you paid your last premium on time.

However, since you (apparently) fly outlaw none of this should bother you as it does not apply to your world view.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

since outlaws have been brought up:
i am an ama member, 81913, CD and Leader Member.
i am not , however a member of any local club, or non local for that mater, mainly because of personal reasons.
i fly my helicoptors at a city park, with the park dept permission.
i have, because of my in town visibility, located about 15-20 local folks that fly planks as outlaws. these people are outlaws for one reason and one reason only. they feel that the AMA dues are too high for the benifits. so they are not members of either the AMA or the local clubs, all of which require AMA.
now, in my comunity of 100,000 or so folks, the local club has maby 40-45 members, and just the outlaws i have ocaisioned to run into amount to almost 1/2 the club number. this cannot be a good thing.
we, the AMA, need those half again as many folks to help us reach a large enough number to maby start to have some real political clout.
what do we do to get them. and don't go saying, teach them about the ama and what it does, almost all of them are past members. we had them and lost them, and that, to me, is the real problem.

Hossfly

>>>>>>>>>
"i am an ama member, 81913, CD and Leader Member."

"i am not , however a member of any local club, or non local for that mater, mainly because of personal reasons"

"what do we do to get them. and don't go saying, teach them about the ama and what it does, almost all of them are past members. we had them and lost them, and that, to me, is the real problem."

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

i cd helicopter events for clubs that have never done one, or do not have a cd of their own.

"have CD, will travel"

Heath

My Feedback: (1)

Call me crazy, but I don't get what the fuss is about.

What do you mean by should they recognize other insurers?

They don't stop you from buying other insurance. Are you wanting them to give you your $5 back so you can purchase individual coverage for $38, like UMA (or whatever its acronym is)? How would that be to your advantage?

Now if you're asking that you buy outside coverage for $38 without joining the AMA, and then you want to show up at an AMA event and participate, that's just plain silly. Show up at an AKC dog show and try to enter a non-AKC NFDSB dog into their event and see what kind of response you get!

And it's already been beaten to death that AMA membership is the easiest way for clubs to ensure that all fliers present are insured.

No one's forcing you to join the AMA, unless you want to participate in AMA events. If that's what you're wanting to do, then that's proof positive that the AMA is offering you, individually, something more than just insurance that YOU desire, a network of contests, events, and flying fields with consistent rules and procedures. THAT'S what your $58 is buying.

Just my 2 cents worth,

Heath

Heath

My Feedback: (1)

Well, I think that's an apples and oranges comparison. Many clubs recognize clubs from other countries on a reciprocal basis, recognizing that someone from, say, the Netherlands isn't going to join the AMA as its not active over there, but they have worked a deal where that person could come to the states and participate in AMA events. That person couldn't be expected to join the AMA and there's no reason to disallow them from participation.

The scenario of a US competing club is altogether different. See, you're asking about insurance, but the reason for no reciprocity isn't about insurance, it's about membership. You wanna play in our club games, gotta join our club. Somehow insurance just became a big scapegoat to it all somewhere down the line. But the fact is, you're not talking about insurance, you're asking to be allowed to fly at AMA events without AMA membership.

I mean, as far as insurance goes, AMA is secondary coverage anyway, and limited, at best. Keep in mind, if you're found in violation of the safety code, no coverage. "I will not fly my model unless it is indentified with my name and address or AMA number, on or in the model." How many people follow that rule religiously? If you don't have a name tag somewhere in your plane, AMA insurance is crap even if you have a card, yet you can still fly in their events because you're a member of the club.

So it really boils down to, why are you not wanting to join the AMA? If you think you can get insurance cheaper elsewhere, you can get better coverage (like from your homeowners policy), but probably not cheaper. If you're upset about where the rest of the $53 of your dues is being spent, become active in the organization and change the budget. If you just don't like the AMA, then don't fly in their events or join their charter clubs.

There are clubs and places to fly that don't require AMA membership. There's a field in the river bottoms a couple of miles from my house where several guys get together and fly. No club, no AMA required, no dues. But they also, have no competitions, fun flys, interaction with anyone but themselves. So you just have to ask yourself do the things I don't like outweigh the things I like about participating in AMA events/clubs?

Just seems the insurance/magazine thing gets blown way out of proportion to me?

Heath

Heath

My Feedback: (1)

In thinking about your example of foreign clubs, an example came to mind of country clubs.

Many country clubs across the nation will allow an out of town guest to show their membership card from another club and play as a guest on their course a limited number of times (1 or 3 usually). This is the same concept. If I'm an out of towner and just want to come play once, no problem, I'm a fellow golfer. If I live in the area and just want to play without joining, the answer's gonna be "get lost."

Same difference with the AMA.

My opinion, for what it's worth (about what you paid for it!).
Dad always said, "Opinions are like armpits, everybody's got a couple, and some of 'em stink!"

Heath

Heath

My Feedback: (1)

This assumption stems from your questions about being able to show up at an event, prove insurance, and participate without being a member. It sounded as if you're wanting to be able to purchase insurance from another organization and then be allowed to fly in AMA events or at AMA chartered clubs. Maybe that's not the case, but surely you can see that's how it has come across?

If your intent is that someone can show up and participate as a one-time (or limited number of times) guest and participate for an added cost, allowing non-AMA members to experience the thrill of competition and get hooked, or decide it's not for them, I think that's a pretty good idea.

Heath

shill

My Feedback: (22)

Well First Question what good is the AMA insurance or how good is it.
2nd thing is Your first line of insurance is your homeowners insurance. The AMA insurance only kicks in after all other avenues have been exhausted. 2nd AMA insurance does not cover other AMA members. The Reason for AMA is almost every club requires you to be a member to fly. Join and quit complaining where elso can you get to pay 58.00 a year and pay your club dues. and usually be under 150.00 a year. just to fly rockets you pay to join a club you pay to be a member of the NAR or TRA .TRA dues are 99.00 a year. Then at all scheduled launches with a waiver and all you have to pay an entry fee to fly rockets 20.00 I am not talking about just flying estes rockets talking about the big stuff that you need a waiver to fly. huys that ride motorcycles racing at the tracks pay much more than that to race and ride at the tracks a year. Look at golf ook at boating fees and launch fees for boats. Flying rc planes is cheap compared to alot of other things out there. 1 last thing is ultimately you the owner flyer of the airplane that is responsible for any damage or injury incured by anybody or property that is damaged.


Steve
AMA L570

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

LOL

Mark,

As "friendly" as you are, I am convinced that you are well beyond enlightenment!

J_R

Mark, do you remember my pointing you to previous posts and other information and suggesting you read them? The enlightenment should now be self-evident.

Shill posted:

2nd AMA insurance does not cover other AMA members

Shill, although member to member AMA insurance is secondary, and has limitations, it does cover other members. Mid-Airs and planes and equipment in the pits are not covered. The other member and things like his car are covered.

JR

Heath

My Feedback: (1)

Well, now it's me who needs enlightenment.

If you are a member of AMA, and aren't looking for a way to bypass AMA membership by securing insurance, what's your goal/point of this post?

Heath

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Very!

Heath

My Feedback: (1)

Ah, well I think it's a small minority that have a problem with the whole insurance/magazine things. Sure, every organization is going to make expenditures that some will disagree with. It's impossible to please everyone all the time.

I really have no problem with them providing insurance. Its a small, small portion of the dues and let's face it, you can never have too much insurance. I think too much emphasis is placed on it as the reason to join. When people are told they have to join the AMA because of the insurance it provides, they start wondering, "well what if I already have insurance?" When actually, you have to join AMA to participate in AMA events or join AMA charter clubs.

I had to join the USTA to play in a USTA league. No problem, now I get a tennis magazine, too. It's just what you have to do to participate in an organization's activities, and I wouldn't join if they didn't have activities that I enjoy.

So I think the whole cost of insurance/getting insurance elsewhere debate is a little overplayed.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Heath

PS - I do agree that it would be a good idea to allow a single event fee to participate in AMA events on a trial basis. From a logistical standpoint, it would be no more hassle than allowing people to join AMA on site, and could attract more to the organization. If they didn't join, AMA would still enjoy increased revenue and participation in events.