Hossfly

Gentlemen:

In this AMA forum, there are many discussions ongoing relative to the AMA's recent initiation of their Park Pilot Program (PPP).
I am not starting this thread to either 'dis-cuss' or 'cuss' that program here. OTOH, perhaps the entire metamorphosis of the sport (hobby) of model aviation should be considered and perhaps a study of some of the many factors is in order. The future of model aviation is depending on how those that started years ago pass on their knowledge and HOW WELL the old-timers respond to the new technologies. For EXAMPLE, (not discussion) Just 3 years ago, did you even conceive of the simple item of sitting in your living room and flying a 6-8" helicopter via remote control? I never even thought I would if I could! [:'(] WRONG! Yep, Ol' Pards, the times are A-Changin' and IMO, we should be working along with the actions needed to change with the times.

Just think of the many items we welcomed: Commercial cellulose glue beat out melting celluloid, CYA took over modeling glues yet some still use cellulose, and carpenter's glue is in big use. The first 5 minute epoxy was like being in the free-beer brewery.
Spark ignition engines replaced rubber power as the only power form. Some still fly rubber. Glow plugs replaced sparkers, yet some still do sparkers. Remember when the first chain-saw gassers came on the market and an 80" wingspan was BIIGGG! I remember the first ARFs. Not so good. Now look at today -- still some are not so good, yet many are very good. There are many other items that we can come up with a little thinking that shows the evolution of modeling and most were welcomed.

There are factors that are not welcomed. As a group, I believe that many modelers are not too fond of AMA's reach-out to the PPP. I am one of those, yet I think that my position may not be in the best interest of long time benefits to the sport of model aviation. Electric is here to stay and may be the best thing happening to the commercial growth of model aviation since reliable proportional RC equipment.

Personally I will always be a model builder, yet I do a number of ARFs. That provides more flying time. Back in the '70s when I owned a Hobby Shop in Mt. Prospect, IL, and there were very few ARFs, it was astounding how some could move built-models through my and other area stores via consignment. People wanted ready to fly airplanes. I ordered from Hobby Shack (Hobby People) in CA as they were importing some ARFs. They gave me only 10% discount and I had to pay postage. I sold them as fast as I could get them, (They limited me big time) at 20% above their advertised retail price. DEMAND was there especially in the flying season after that winter-build machine was crashed. [X(] The evolution from build-it to fly-it was in progress.

IMO, we older models have a duty, or something like a duty, to pass on what we have experienced and to lay a base to the new comers that will never have the opportunities to enjoy what we have had, yet just what will they be enjoying that we never had? Who knows what they will face in the next 50 years as they pass on the current technologies to their kids and grand-kids in the technologies of that day? Turbine racing in the living room? Laugh if you will, but 5 years ago I would have done same about the little chopper. [:-] Just because I may stay in my little box myself, is no reason to expect that I should not embrace the newbies in the box they find themselves enjoying.

Anyone for giving the new things a chance? Yet, let us not forget that critique, evaluation, change, and even redirection is always proper.


edit: add a 't' where a 't' was needed.

JUGFLIER

I'm with ya on this one Hoss, good post. Things most definitely aren't perfect but it is a real effort i believe. The first production automobile has underwnt many changes and i am glad we don't only have the Wright Flyer for an airplane. I think things will need tweaking but full speed ahead.

Roby

I'm with ya on this on Hoss. Well done.

Regards,
Roby

Hossfly

Thanks for the replies Roby and Jugflier. Now I want to add something else.

A very good friend of mine, both of us old CL/FF converts, and he a much more avid collector than me, use to have a lot of good discussions. Kenneth, (Ken) was very wise about modeling and very ardent about the good things it provides a person. Unfortunately, Ken passed on a couple years ago to that great flying field in the sunset. He lives on in my memories forever.

Both Ken and I messed around on ebay for some 10 years. Total of 120+/- exchanges for me but Ken probably did 10 times that amount. At first I was doing some collecting, Recently I have been both collecting and some "UN-collecting" One item, Ken and I often spoke of, was how we knew that some collector had passed on when a large group of old kits, engines, etc. showed up on eBay.

Well, in the past few months I am finding a good abundance of OLD FF, CL and vintage RC kits, engines and accessories like Tatone FF timers, etc., available on the auction block. Ignition engines that used to bring $200 or more are going for well less than a $100.
To me this says that the old timers are passing on, and those inheriting those items have no use for them so they are getting rid of them fast. Actually many are being sold by the more professional sellers, so the estate-sale buyers are getting the stuff at real bargain pricing.

In other words we old folks don't seem to be passing on the heritage of aeromodeling. I have two sons that have no interest in aeromodeling yet each won trophies in Junior Class AMA National competitions. What did I do wrong? I have two grandsons, one never had any modeling interest, although he is very familiar with it. The other, now 15, will never build a model although he did solo out in record time with me, age 12, and has flown solo some very fancy stuff. In reality he really has no place to pursue a hobby. No basements in San Antonio, and the garage is full of "important" junk. There are so many places like that.

Maybe if I could introduce him to "foamies" he could fly in his backyard and keep the models under his bed. As an early teenager I built some big models on a large cardboard layout that slid under the bed when not in use, before getting some garage space which I had to keep very clean. Must be old age because I don't know/remember how I ever kept a workplace clean! OTOH, back then all was FF or CL, so there was no need for multiple wires hanging everywhere from wall-wart chargers and a charger for this and a charger for that, etc., etc.

So, I have experienced enough to accept that young folks are not going to get glued fingers, razor cuts, messy shirts, and spend time alone working on a toy airplane which may not be usable when finished due to no place to fly it. Parents are not going to allow the smell of model "dope" (paint for you real newbies ) to fumigate throughout the house. Things need to change and I'm thinking we should be doing something to keep the wonder-of-something-that-flies in the hearts and minds of these fine young people that can be brought into this hobby/sport.

Thanks for letting me ramble. [8D]

JUGFLIER

Hoss,
It's my experience that RC flyoing is like Lays potatoe chips, you just can't eat just one. If you did get your gransons involved in electric backyard flying, i think once they rub elbows with others of like mind, they you will see them wanting to fly other types of models and even want to go beyond the current limitations of electric flight.

I have two boys and when they were young i built them a Sig Kadet. I started both on a buddy cord but the experience of my younger sone wasn't that good, he didn't like looking in the sun at 3 mistakes high and i made the mistake of getting mad when he messed up. That did it for him. i can't interest him at all.

My oldest son is a quite experienced pilot and very good at 3-d, he turned 16 today. He didn't like it when he was learning but after we cut the cord he flourished.

I think this newesr generation just don't take the crusty old critism too well. When they crash you just help em pick it up and repair it and go again.

P.S. The park flyers do actually teach modeling skills, just not the old fashioned kind. This new electric stuff makes you really learn about electricity and how it operates and how to harness it to make a powerplant, something i could never learn.

Mode One

This is one of those topics which I feel I can be of little help with; but, also feel is so very important! In the past, it's always been that the person starting out, had to have the spark to do so. I don't know if the spark for model airplanes is there much anymore.

Rat1

I know I sparked the interest in my daughters. They love to watch me fly and I have helped them on one of my basic electric models. They have watched me do some creating of my own and have done some of their own creating building free flight type stuff using some of the foam I have laying around. It is kind of fun to sit down with them and make things. One of them is working on a Fanfold Piper J3 cub look a like right now. We plan on powering it with a gws 350C motor that I have laying around.

She is waiting on some fund from her babysitting to purchase a speed control and some other odds and ends. I will let her use my Flash 4X for now until she can fund her own tranmitter.

I would just buy her the stuff but I feel it is better that she buy the stuff as it gives her a better sense of pride in what she built.

Stickbuilder

Horrace, and all,

You are correct. The times are changing, but the difference between the way that this hobby has historically changed, and the way it is changing today are miles apart. Horrace, when we were doing rubber power, and scrimping and saving for the old Slag engines, and trying to come up with the money for a Forrester, or Super Cyke, we were not being hammered by a group that was impolite in their methods. Today, I feel that we are being forced to accept a new type of model, and modeller as well. This is a foreign experience for a lot of us. Before, someone would try a new method, or power type, and if it proved out, it would slowly take the hobby over. Today, we are being told to accept a new type of power plant, and a new kind of modeller/flyer. Not only are the propulsion systems different, the airframes are bought pre-built, and the people who are coming to the hobby are not asking for our approval. They arrive, complete with an attitude, and expect to be accepted. There is no earning a spot any longer, but it is expected that they will be allowed to either buy their way in, or force their way in. I think that this is the reason for the older mainstream hobbyist resisting the changes that are taking place within our hobby.

Before you newbies start screaming, please take time to re-read and digest what I have just written. Put yourselves in the place of we old phartes. We have been building and flying model airplanes since before most of your parents were born. You arrive, at the fields which we have built from nothing but a vacant piece of property, and demand to be accepted as an equal. We grew up in an era when you had to pay your dues to be an equal. We had to learn to build the damn things, and how to trim them to be able to fly without external controls. We had to learn how to tame an unreliable power plant. You don't have to do these things, and we don't like it a bit. Are we jealous of what you have available to you? Probably. We basically don't understand you. We don't understand your choice of power, your flying style, and your In Your Face attitudes either. It's not that we don't like you, but it's more that we don't understand you. It's a generational thing. You won't like it in 50 or so years when things make a quantum change as well.

Them's my thoughts on the whole thing, and right or wrong, I'm entitled to them. I have paid my dues.

Bill, AMA 4720

Hossfly

BILL, well shucks and darn-its and all that stuff. I sit and think on things and just when I think I have it all figured out, darn if you don't come along and post something that I can't argue with. DRATS! [sm=confused_smile.gif] Now you got me going in circles! If they DRAFT me into the AMA EC, it will be all YOUR fault.

Yes, Bill, you mirrior my feelings on many days, especially when I am given almost what amounts to orders from those I don't feel qualified to give me orders. On other days I feel the need to do more. Unfortunately we live in a world which is rapidly revolving into something you and I never had any idea that could happen to this country. I think some guy called karl marx wrote a book or something about such a plan. Yes, Bill, the times are a-changin' and you and I don't have much time left to stop it. I really feel sad for my grandchildren.

Wanna' take a day at the NATs this summer. I will meet you there!

Stickbuilder

Horrace, I'd love to meet you for a day at the Nats (If I were going). I'd rather spend all 5 days at Top Gun instead. At least there, you don't see someone finish 3rd in a class that only has 3 entrants, which is something that some entrants at the Nats look for. Imagine winning a trophy for looking for a low entry class, and building/buying a model airplane to qualify for that event. How much is that trophy worth? Sorry about the departure from the topic.

There is nothing that you or I can do about what has happened, and is happening to this hobby. Personally, I was far more satisfied before all the changes started. Now, It's difficult at times to be able to land, even though you call out, "Landing", and someone wearing an IPOD headset can't or won't hear you because he's listening to music while he hovers over the runway. Sometimes, you just want to make a low pass and take him out, but good manners won't allow that, and sadly good manners is not a disease that can be passed on to others.

Bill, AMA 4720

bkdavy

My Feedback: (1)

You are correct Hoss, the times they are a changing. Fact is, the times are always changing. The one constant in life is change. Unfortunately the thing people deal worst with and fear most (other than public speaking) is change.

I'm a relative newbie to this hobby (only been building and flying for about 5 years now). But I'm also 47 years old. So I'm in the sandwich between the old time flyers and the new youth. I have three children (22, 18, and 13). None of them is the least bit excited by flying model airplanes - period. What sparks excitement in the younger generation is not what sparks interest in mine or yours.

Todays youth are not awed by the physics of flight the way I was. Its old hat to them. They're used to quick and easy. Not saying its bad or good, just the way it is.

But take heart old timers. The hobby is not dead or dying. Having started out looking for inexpensive and quick, I've graduated from kit building to stick building. Scale modeling is in my future. Our club is doing a build class at a LHS, and that is generating a fair amount of interest. The younger people showing up with the ARFs and RTFs are seeing that crashing a plane doesn't always mean it goes in the trash. I've shown them lots of repairs.

I see kids spending as much time setting up and trimming their electrics as I see us older flyers spending on our glow or gas planes. Once they get bit by the bug, they get the same addiction.

Our club is embracing all these flyers whenever they show up. Its just hard to get them to show up.

Brad

Mode One

I have two boys, one almost 30 the other almost 28. They hovered around and did show some interest in the hobby when younger. The oldest says he'd like to get involved and maybe will at some point. When old enough to start paying for R/C equipment, they did, but both got interested in R/C trucks and not planes. Both still are involved in video games and I rather think this is the big competition item for R/C for their generation. Both built plastic models and were good at it (planes and cars). In fact they showed me some neat ways of painting very small details with tooth picks. It may be that they were over exposed when the R/C flying field was on my property and seeing flying R/C airplanes on a daily basis became boring, I don't know.

Like I said earlier, the individual has to have the spark of interest and I'm wondering if this spark is dimming. Sometimes a hobby/activity/sport simply dies a slow painless death over time due to the changing interests of people and nothing can be done about it. I'm not saying this is the case here, as I have no idea what the future holds for model aviation!

NorfolkSouthern

Model aviation seems to be going the way of the video game. Folks aren't showing up with planes with the idea of mimicking a full-scale. Rather, they are there to simply get their fix. The modelers who are in it for the love of aviation often feel resentful because of it, and I don't blame them. Go to a local hobby shop, and the shelves are stocked full of electric ARFs and not a single kit, except for a few rubber-band holdouts to satisfy the need for someone who likes puzzles and will most likely just buy another kit when they're finished. Yes, I do like the idea of ARFs because of the plastic glow-powered C/L Cox models and other brands when I was very little.

But the electrics, I must admit I do have a few problems adjusting to them. First, there's the batteries. They're expensive, and can be a potential fire hazard if not used with caution. I don't want to store LiPos in my apartment, as it may be a liability I don't want to live with. The chargers and balancers are also expensive. Then, there's the need for the ESC along with the engine. Of course, the rest is easy (a distinct advantage, since everything is pre-cut and accessories dictated in the manual). They also fly different, you can easily duplicate a dead-stick just by cutting the throttle. Electrics have an odd way of responding to commands. They may or may not power on when the batteries are plugged in, you have to keep your fingers away and watch the switch. Soldering is a good skill to have for some ARFs, I can do that if I have to. What I hated the most about an electric boat I had, was the amount of time I had to spend charging its batteries after each short run. Back in those days, the electrics were expected to overtake the nitro and gas power. But now, nitro has not lost its popularity for marine and land use, trust me. There are plenty of them, more of them than glow-powered engines and aircraft.

Glow engines have improved in recent years, both in power and reliability, both two and four strokes. I trust my OS engines as much as I would an electric, to say the least. Never had a problem with them when using the right fuels. They are also very affordable to buy, and maintain. I spend considerably less on fuels than I would the equivalent batteries, plus there is less of a possibility that the fuel would ignite on its own due to a short circuit.

In addition to the proliferation of ARFs, I see most folks at the local hobby shop picking up model cars. In fact, the car people seem to outnumber us "pilots" about 5 to 1. You can take a four-wheeler, plug it in, and have fun in your back yard without the worry of a Firebird or Slow Stick wondering off to the other side of the neighbor's fence or ending up in a tree. And, you don't have to go swimming to retrieve a boat when the battery dies down after running it too long between charges. There aren't a whole lot of us who take to the skies, so I suppose it's best that we all get along, right?

By the way, I'm just about ready to finish up on my first fully-built kit, a Great Planes Rapture. I'll use my OS 46 AX. It should be fun!

NorfolkSouthern

Jim Thomerson

Things are pretty good in control line stunt. We have more good to fantastic stunt engines, all over the price range, than we ever had before. There are excellent kits of more good airplanes than ever before. There are ARF's which can be made to work really well. There are all kinds of specialty suppliers where you can get just about anything you want. Part of this is due to PAMPA, the stunt SIG, which has developed skill classes, for example. The PAMPA newsletter, Stunt News, is of very high quality. Control Line World, published by Brodak, covers all aspects of CL, and is a good read. Electrics are competitive, and look to be the wave of the future, but we are dealing with them fairly collegually. There are more stunt contests available than I can manage to attend. Life is good.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Great report!

You are right on…I couldn’t agree any more with your insightful perspective...It is not all doom and gloom after all...thanks Jim we all needed that.

k3 valley flyer

My Feedback: (18)

Hoss the members in my club for the most part are changing with the new technologies, we almost all fly glow and electric, we fly indoors in the winter, gas and glow during the day in summer and electric in the evening. We use lipos, some are buying 2.4, ie we are accepting the new stuff. HOWEVER, still not clear to us how the new technologies forced AMA to adopt a two tier membership program. Sure we understand it is good to grow the membership, but if you won't get in for $58 you ain't gonna get infor $29! People that buy toys because they really don't want to spend very much are not the future of either the hobby or AMA. All for new technology but the PPP is about business and politics it has nothing to do with technology. It will fail because it's target market isn't interested in insurance and doesn't perceive a need for it. That perception probably is a result of the type of technology they are using, those that progress and become serious about being modelers will find AMA and the clubs anyway. What has upset the current membership is we have always tried to help and develope the newbie toy guys as much as the guy that showed up with a 60 size trainer. PPP actually forces us to manage and monitor how we help them now, as two different groups. It is the program not the technology they use that will force us to approach them differently.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Good post k3.

Hossfly

K3 V. F., I disagree with P-51B concerning your post. He said it was good and I say it was EXCELLENT with superior understanding, insight, and just great overall thought/s.

IMO, ALL you guys are definitely providing some study and learning material. I certainly enjoy these different perspectives.

Thanks and keep 'em coming.

jester_s1

I've only been in RC for a year so maybe I haven't been around long enough to find the crusty old guys of which you all speak. I go to retiree day at the field most of the time because it works with my schedule, and those guys have been nothing but helpful to me and seem to appreciate my presence. One even took his own flying time to help me complete my training. Of course, I didn't show up with a punk attitude which may have something to do with it. At 32 years old, I am definitely the junior member of the club.

I don't quite get the disdain for instant airplanes and electric motors. They don't interest me either, but why not let the new guys pay their membership fees (which helps keep the field open for your use too) and enjoy it their own way? RC is just a hobby. The activity brings people together and it's the people that actually matter. I agree that an IPOD is unsafe and inconsiderate flying is a nuisance, but some patient education can fix those problems. If the hobby is important to you, it seems that welcoming new participants is the best way to make sure it continues.

Mode One

If I came across as preaching Doom and Gloom, that was not my intentions. If we look at the membership growth in the AMA since I joined, it has increase three fold. I can see no reason to think membership will not continue to grow. However I have no crystal ball; or, abilities to see into the future.

Jim Messer

My Feedback: (2)

Hello Hoss and other Posters:

Yes - times are changing, and that will always be. The advent of electrics and ARF's has certainly changed the direction this hobby has taken, but whether those two trends will last is anybody's guess.

In our club, we have the whole menu: About six of us fly giant scale with gas engines, but I am the only builder. All the others fly Chinese ARF's.

Still, another group flies glo engines, both two and four cycle, and no more than two in ten build their own models. All the others are Chinese ARF's. of one sort or another.

Two of our club members fly turbines. They are impressive, and expensive. But, they are not home built - they are fiberglassed replicas of real jets that are manufactured and sold to the modeler. He does ,however, have to install all the radio gear, so it takes a real good understanding of modeling to fly turbines. Besides that, you must be a very good pilot.

Another group flies only electrics. Some are like pattern planes that require considerable skill to fly, whereas others are just foamies that fly, but that is all you can say for them.

We have a couple that fly only helicopters. One guy is extremely good, and exciting to watch - but only for a couple of flights. After that - no one watches.

So here is the reaction to those that sit and watch: Electrics - almost no one watches. Why - because they don't make any noise and you don't even know they are in the air. Glo engine planes - I would say that most flights get watched.

Gas engine planes - most all flights get watched. I guess that is because the noise draws attention, and the size as well. But I have noticed, that when I fly my big J-3 Cub, or Stinson SR-10, just about everybody watches the entire flight. Those two smooth flying non-aerobatic scale like airplanes gets more applause than anything else at the field. So why is that?

I guess it's because we all grew up with Cubs, Stinsons, Champs, Stearmans, and the like that there is a nostalgic feeling when we see them in the air, and for sure, there is association with those type planes that we don't have for the Caps, Lasers, Extras, etc. Besides that, when we see a J-3 Cub in the air, we know for sure that it is a Cub. Same goes with the Stinson with it's gull wing shape that make it famous.

Not true for the Aerobatic planes. I can't tell one from another, and especially so when they are flying - so there's no connection there. In my opinion, you see one, you've seen them all.

I have seen so many changes in my lifetime in this hobby, I know the trend will continue, but there is no way I can predict what that will be. I have two sons that are full scale pilots - one even built his own VANS RV-6A, and someday they are going to inheret a bunch of really nice giant scale models, so I hope that my AMA number gets replaced two for one. That will make the hobby grow.

Just for interest, below are images of the J-3 and Stinson.