What is the federal case number on this one?

Kevin

This is an interesting post. Most likely the pilot didnt know you were there at all and was low flying for a good reason although a news heli will do whatever to get the shot usually. Be concerned about it though as a .40 is plenty big enough to bring down a heli in a collision and he could land on you. This puts a different light on the responsibility issue dont it

SA
yes, it does

you do realize that the model pilot did exactly the right thing to avoid a collision,
GG was the one that had the model avoid the manned heli.


Now, in after action review,
since the model pilot knew the right thing to do,
and did it,
that doesnt mean we cant condemn the Heli pilot for misbehaving or flat out Violating.

Model pilot had to do the right thing,
because the Heli pilot was doing the wrong thing

We had a low flying news helicopter situation involving R/C that turned into a 2 part television news story, back about 1994 or so.

There was a well known local helicopter pilot/traffic and news reporter that thought it was his god given right to blast around at less than 500 feet anywhere along the major highways. Anyone remember Dick Siegel from that time frame in DFW? He would directly and repeatedly overfly the Greater Southwest R/C club field in east FW/Hurst (about 1/3-1/5 mile off of the loop around FW)and if he saw a model, he would claim, on the air, that those crazy model flyers were TRYING to hit him and that we were a major menace to air navigation! He and his assistant (actually, the REAL pilot) would take videos of models at about their level and air them with the news report. A ground based news team showed up at the model field and even enticed the flyers into flying higher than normal one day and used that report as part of the attack.

The local clubs, the AMA and the SFA all contacted the news station and told them the real story, including a number of full scale proffesional pilots that also flew models......and it all went away. I do beleive, but am not 100% positive that his low flying was reported to the FAA and he got in some amount of trouble over it. I am fairly certain that he had one or more license suspentions around ths time....

A good flying freind of mine had the ulimate encounter with this jerk, sometime a while before before the news reports. Jim was practicing turnaround aerobatics at the local Jr. college field, also on the loop around FW, on the south side. This same guy came zipping along at warp speed, right at Jim's altitude of about 100 feet or so and directly overhead Jim. Not sure if Jim had time to zig, but the heli zagged, whipped around and landed very close to Jim, right on the college property. The jerk gets out, runs over to Jim and starts screaming at him about Jim trying to kill him on purpose. Incredible. It is all Jim can do to keep his model from crashing while he is getting reamed. The guy is yelling at Jim to land, but he had landed the chopper on the mowed runway!

Then this guy gets back in the JetRanger and, no kidding, buzzes Jim on takeoff, at close range. Scared the crap out of him. Siegel should have done time for that stunt.

Jim lands, gets himself back together and refuels and takes off again.......about 5 minutes later, a police cruiser shows up and the officer asks Jim if he had beed trying to hit Dick Siegel with a model plane.......

Jim tells his side and how low the jerk was and the police officer sighed, asked Jim for a written report and then made a radio call to cancel the other two squad cars that were in route, and most likely planning to to arrest Jim....geeez.

The moral of the story is to stay alert, expect the unexpected and do your darnest to avoid full scale aircraft while flying models, at all costs, no matter who is in the right. Then, if the full scale pilot is in the wrong, turn his butt in.

Right on, KE-

GG did did the right thing, intuitively and responsibly. The time to question who is right/wrong per whatever rules may apply was deferred until after he had acted to prevent a potential incident, and that is exactly the right way to deal with such a situation.

Abel

I think asking why the heli was so low is a good question, with the TV cameras they have on board they can take a close up from a thousand
feet that looks like they are standing in front of you.

Well you thinking it matters and it actually mattering are two different things. It still numbs my brain to think there are model pilots out there that think you have some sort of rights or whatever relative to full size.

Frankly the guy who started the thread is lucky that the helicopter pilot did not file a report, which would have gotten the FAA in contact with the parks folks and that would be the end of that.

well I dont know whats so different about your neck of the woods, we have had the same issue with a low flying pilot regularly buzzing our registered field, and both he and the club filed reports, the end result being he got severely reprimanded, which stopped him for some months. He started doing it again and the club filed another report which resulted in sid pilot losing his commercial licence. The bottom line is still that these fools should NOT be flying below regulation minimums whether they be 500ft or 2000ft. with the advances we have now with our planes running upward of 500cc motors and 100cc being relatively common its only a matter of time before an incident occurs, and then its no point in saying 'the rc pilot should have dived out of the way'. Another point to be made is that all registered fields and some parks are actully listed on navigation maps and therefore a pilot buzzing a field can only be described as a deliberate act. To be blunt it would be tragic if an incident did occur, but I'd be siding with the rc'er every step of the way. I see these low flying fools as no different to the fools you see daily on the roads, and that you pray that when they wipeout they dont take any innocents with them

I'd like to comment on this but let me take a minute for a brief introduction. My AMA number is 12192. I've been flying model planes since I was 5 years old, 53 now. I fly something virtually everyday. I fly everything from helicopters to IMAC planes, with a primary passion of sailplanes. Just got done flying my helicopter and a small aerobatic electric. I am an AVP for District X of the AMA and have held this position for over 25 years and have been awarded a Distinguished Service award. Also a CD, leader member and have held Officer positions in several different clubs. That was my model background. Now for the important stuff.

I am a Commercially rated fixed wing and helicopter pilot with Instrument ratings in both. I built my own Van's RV 7 that I have flown nearly 500 hours all over the US. After retiring from a career in public safety, I am now employed flying medical helicopters in the Phoenix area. I have nearly 3000 hours of helicopter time and current in a variety of piston and turbine helicopters. My current aircraft is a Eurocopter Astar 350B2.

Please read carefully, model aircraft NEVER have the right of way over a full scale aircraft. NEVER, EVER. I don't have time to pull the regs (FAR's) at this moment, actually my books are at work. It doesn't matter where the helicopter was, why it was there or what altitude, it has the right of way. The helicopter can fly at any altitude it wants as long as it can affect a safe landing. Yes, aircraft are supposed to be at a given altitude over people or structures, but he would have to know you were there. Without knowing the geography there and other details (the "rest of the story") it is not prudent to speculate if that would have been possible. I can tell you that if cruising at a low altitude at a reasonably high speed, is not difficult to exchange that airspeed for altitude in order to do a successful emergency landing. I will not make excuses for the helicopter pilot, because he may have been at an unreasonable altitude, I don't know. Despite that, the helicopter has the right of way. Further, our model aircraft are not, and will likely never be, classified as a UAV by the FAA. This a completely different animal altogether.

I don't want to dispute your side of the story, but I find it somewhat hard to comprehend why you couldn't hear a helicopter coming. There are no helicopters I know of that can out run their own sound, especially if it was a news channel, likely flying a Bell Jet Ranger or Eurocopter Astar. Neither are exactly stealth. You should be able to hear it for some distance that allows you to get out of the way and/or land.

Now the solution. You will get nowhere if you call the TV station in anger or try to report the event to the FAA. It is likely you'll be the one explaining. Modelers are their own worst enemies sometimes. So, contact your local AMA representative(or club president if an AMA rep is not in the immediate area) and have him contact the TV station and other potential full scale operators to let them know of your flying site(s). This way you'll look like the good guy, they'll be educated and everyone will be safe. It is also prudent to have a safety person standing with you to alert you of full scale aircraft, other models and other potential distractions. This is required by many model clubs in my area.

In closing, I clearly have interests on both sides of this argument. With knowing all the facts I cannot comments on the specifics. Not withstanding this, the fact remains, the model NEVER has the right of way!!!

Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler, AZ

At several flying fields I have been members of heli's flying around were the norm, its those low flying heli's that buzz the field at 200ft or less, coming in from behind that you know are on top of when its almost too late. The location of our was close to the water with a wood between us and the water. You get a heli decididing to buzz you from there you have no warning. contacting the faa and the airport (6miles away) we were told that heli's had the same hieght limit as airplanes, and that was 500 ft, while we were limited to 300ft. Now you tell me that any heli can happily buzz rc'ers at will?

There is a bit of a problem with the definition of right of way. The right of way rules in the FAR's do not mention models. The AMA and AC mention that we should give right of way, but do not explain that fact. Actually we can only land or fly at a low altitude when we hear an aircraft, which I believe is the intent of the AC and the AMA rule. I don't know what else you can do other than turn away if discovered at the last moment. That is not the meaning of right of way in the FAR's. That actually comes under see and avoid. Right of way is when you give way to an oncoming aircraft, to include which way you turn, etc. There is no time for a model to do that and no rules on how it should be done.

Model planes go back further in time than do 'copters with thousands of flights performed by each type of machine performed daily.....how many collisions have we had so far?

Hi Darwin-

This is an aside from the topic at hand, but I just want to say thanks for checking in. I asked a couple of months ago how many AVPs are out there that are willing to participate in discussions here. You are the 5th that I know of that has joined in, and interestingly the other four are in D-X too. Speaks well of the legacy left by Rich Hanson IMHO, and I'm feeling pretty good about moving to D-X. Nice to know there are folks like you that are willing and able to have some discourse with the AMA members they represent, and are not just wearing the hat.

Abel

the way I read RV7guy's post hmm to me its seems the same as ur travelling the right way down a one way street and a mack truck coming the other way, and if you collid its all your fault. If thats the case we can all pack up our models and forget about flying, because it wont be long before a lot rc fields will soon be continuously over flown by helis and light aircraft and we will be constantly landing if we get airborne at all. several rc fields I have been to have had very regular full size traffic around them, I shudder to think what it would be like if they all said,' hey we got right of way, lets buzz the rc'ers'

He got a hat??!! [X(]

Man, talk about feeling left out

Well heck, Bill - It ain't easy to find one big enough for you........... Hang in there, must be a tent works somewhere in the vicinity of Munchie.
On a more sincere note, you do hang in there and that is appreciated. I recall Sandy Frank posting in another forum re standing up to the heat in the kitchen. He didn't, you do, and that says something about your fortitude. The heat comes with the territory, and I think you know that and accept it. Tnx

Abel

Yes thank you very much for checking in! Bottom line it would be the worse thing I that could happen flying RC is to collide with a full sized aircraft! I have planes that I really enjoy but none are more important to me then life! Here in Wyoming you can see the full sized coming for miles so I really do not know what it would be like to go through a heli coming out of nowhere but if one does I will do all I can or ditch the plane i'm flying! Where I fly it would be thier fault they was there but like I said I would rather take the lost then them! I did have a piper cub fly over where I was flying at the field and had allot of time to avoid it for sure, I went to the airport to look at it and talked to the older couple from Cal. and they were very nice, so ya it would have been the plane I was flying downed! They just did not know where our field was and that happens, but it should not cost them thier lives! For me people come first! Everything I got can be replaced but my family members! Bob

Have a graet day! I know i'm going too!

A very good illistration of the point I have been trying to make!

RV7guy makes the point that no heli can outrun its own sound, while thats true, low flying and coming from behind cover its dam hard to pinpoint at all till its over the top of you. RV7guy also states that we should have a safety person standing by you, but from what I have seen with observers/callers at competition events I dont put any faith in that, too often I have seen these observers gasbagging in thier cell phones or gabbin with thier pals while all hell is breaking lose and they are the last to know. There is even a thread on here that shows that quite clearly. I will post a link when I find it. To me the bottom line is why do we law abiding rc'ers have to put up with clowns dont disregard flight rules? why isnt there some sort of authority to look into these clowns? will it take an incident with loss of life? and then what? the full size fools get away free and we get hammered with more rules and regs? I have a nice selection of photos of low flying aircraft flying way low over registered airfields, some low enough to count every rivet. Yet from what I have been able to find out, min hieght for full size is 500' agl and some areas its anywhere up to 2000'. How about haveing these enforced?

My club flies on a former landfill in my town. Diagonally across the street, about 1,000 feet away there is a heliport. When we started the club about a year ago, I informed them of our presence. I was concerned because a number of years ago someone else tried to fly on a piece of land more directly across from them. At first we agreed that when we were flying we would call them up so they would not approach over us. This has worked out very well for us so far. No matter, we either land or fly very low whenever a heli is in sight. We show them as much courtesy as possible and so far so good. Now when they go up they look to see if there are any cars at the field and avoid us all together. So it is possible to safely coexist.

Actually I was in a helicopter that buzzed a flying field once last summer. I was sitting in the back of an R44, as we flew east towards the town of Sheboygan Falls there is the SHARKS (Sheboygan Area Radio Kontrol) Field just to the north, about 200 yards of the road we were flying over. We could clearly see the people on the ground, the planes, everything at less than 200 feet. No one was flying at the time. We could tell because they were cutting the grass and those standing at the flightline were clearly more interested in waving to us the anything that might have been in the air. I'm not taking the heli pilots side in either case, but learned that unlike airplanes that have to adhere to flight plans, altitude mins, etc. The helicopter can fly almost anywhere. In the end it's up to the pilot on both sides. If he's cool and understands the fact your plane could kill him, and you the same. Then there's no reason we can't both enjoy the one last free thing left on this planet. Yes there will always be some jerks out there, however I have meet more corperate jet pilots in the last six years that find rc flying amazing. Some even fly them selves.

Right, but not usually over parks.

From the FAA website.

They generally have a map with minimal altitudes on them, they are for example often allowed to fly 500 feet above populated areas, whereas other aircraft are limited to 1000 feet. They would be allowed to land in those areas and that would be the only time they would be allowed to fly below 500 feet. They should not fly directly over areas where they know model airplanes fly, In accordance with the part "without hazard to persons or property". Of course the helicopter in question may not have known about this, but your helicopter pilot did and he should have stayed away, or slowly approached from the flightline side to observe if model aircraft are in the way. For him to assume he should quickly fly over without looking because he had the right of way would be stupid.

SA
Hey, great, lets play the opinion game:
Well you thinking it matters and it actually mattering are two different things.

It still numbs my brain to think there are RCU posters out there
that think this has ANYTHING to do with right of way.

This has nothing to do with right of way of the model,
from the very first post we knew the model pilot did everything right...
GG yeilded to the Heli without hesitation.


NOW,
since we know this is not about what we should do, since we know and do it,
we can concentrate on condemning the News heli pilot
that was way too low ON TRANSIT....
he was not low & filming, he was going from A to B way too low & fast over an occupied park.

2 seperate situations:
a) Heli flys too low around town
b) Model might collide with manned aircraft

B was resolved by proper prior planning to prevent poor perfomance:
GG knew what to do & did it. Right of Way is a non-issue

A....
yeah, A is the thing we are talking about... the heli flys transit over occupied parks too low

GG did the right thing dodge dodge dodge. As for hearing a heli coming I live in a USMC chinook training lane and sometimes when they fly over my park I dont notice them untill the rotor wash is making my bird go squirly. Opinions aside small nimble RC craft can dodge and investment time and money will make you try and save you plane every time. I live in Denver Colorado. If a heli pilot does something wierd up here everybodys on his ass emediatley. Dosnt matter what anyone thinks about it if a full size pilot is doing something to endanger people even himself it needs reporting. As for the park rangers getting grief over letting you fly there, well thats just bs. The heli pilot was/is wrong for endangering your life and his by flying low over you. You can scoff all you want but try standing close to a .60 size heli when its taking off. you may discover a few things about keeping the tarmac clean of debri.

The issue I brought up is not that you cannot dodge but that you cannot follow right of way rules. For example the rules say you must turn to the right when you see an aircraft approaching head on. Well how do you know that when flying a model. If it looks like it is head on and you turn right, you may be turning into the plane instead of away from it. Also what looks like a huge miss to us is likely a reportable near miss to a full scale plane. So how much trouble will you and the club be if the pilot records a near miss incedent? Better to land as soon as you hear the plane than try to give it right of way.

Also the Heli pilot may not have been in the wrong. If this is a county park it is probably legal to fly 75 feet over the park. Not very smart though.