Something that happened to me on Sunday got me thinking of who was in the right or wrong. Or what should have been done?

I fly sometimes at the local County park, with the Ranger's permission, along with quite a few other fliers. Nice, approx 20 acre area for flying with an occasional jogger or dog walker, as all other parts of the park are in another separate area. And yes we clear the area for the joggers/walkers.

Anyhow on Sunday I'm there with a few other fliers, have my .25 Cub out flying, well within the park boundaries, which are outlined by tree lines.

One of the local news helicopters comes over the trees, just above them, and crosses the park. I was in his path as he came across the trees, I zigged and he zagged.
I dropped down out of the way, and he continued across the park and where other's were flying, he knew I was there as we both avoided each other, and there were a lot bigger r/c planes flying then mine so I can't think he didn't see them, but he kept on flying right across the park, at the same altitude. Last I saw him he was still at the same altitude when he went out of sight.

If we had met, undoubtedly my Cub would have been toast, and who knows what it would have done to the heli.

So here's my question. Who was in the wrong/right? I could understand being wrong if I was flying close to an airport and in flight traffic lanes, but this area doesn't fall into either of those. And I was no where near 400 feet in altitude, more like 75 feet as he and I were nearly level, just above the trees. And I was inside the boundries of the park.

We do get a lot of military flights across the field, but they are near speck sized as they cross, as the base is approx 40 miles away, ditto the commercial one.

So are flights like this now something else I have to be on the alert for constantly. And I just now thought of this, what if this would have happened over a regular R/C field?

What happens then when a full size comes in that low over an operating field?

Get out of the way...fast

it's a gray aera. The FAR rule is he's to stay 500 feet from persons or structures, if he violated that then he's in the wrong, also under visual flight rules he's to see and avoid, but his being able to see a 3 lb model buzzing around at 40-80mph is a fat chance. Unless your actually in an airports airspace or you are flying above 700 agl within a 5 miles of a class g field or 1200 feet agl anywhere else then the heli or any aircraft really doesn't have a right of way. That said if you see it get the hell out of the way. If something happened the pilot would be asked very harshly what he was doing so low. Also was this a national or state park? Most of these areas have 1500 agl rules to not disturb wildlife, at least that's true out here in the socialist republic of cali.

Full size has the right of way, but should not be flying that low I am thinking. Check with the FAA and see what the regulations are for helicopter flight and minimum altitude over inhabited areas. There are rules and regulations for those things. If he is breaking the rules get his tail or ID number and report him. His breaking the rules, (if he is ?) could cause problems for all involved and give R/C a bad name in that area and nationally. Just my 2 cents.


Vince AMA 7051

From the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR):


Beyond that, in every single case that I have ever heard of the full size, man carrying aircraft is considered to have the right of way. And as a pilot myself, I cannot even begin to tell you how hard it is to see a model aircraft in flight. I've been in situations where we were trying to see models that we knew were there and still had a hard time!!

GG-

Regardless of the merits in any legalese arguments, I think you're savvy enough to know the only sensible answer.

As a local fisherman in Jamaica said "dat bigga boat he got de right o' way Mon."

Abel

i was close

So it's like boating? Biggest boat has right of way? Even if it continues it's path into what could be a dangerous situation?

Just my impression, but I would think if I was the other pilot I would have changed direction/altitude after nearly hitting one obstacle, and having obvious( at least to me) others in the same area. I don't know, to me it's like he just decided to buzz the field to see what would happen.

Someone could of easily dumb thumbed a bird into him instead away from him when he kept going into occupied airspace. Would be like him nearly hitting a bird, and then seeing the rest of the flock coming, proceeds to fly right through them.

I do understand he's got the bigger bird, but to me it seemed like he was trying to see what he could make happen by flying that low and going right through the area.

As for reporting what I thought was an unsafe act, as a news chopper they could use any excuse for the heli being that low.

Just one of those things I guess, I thought that flying in a known area would be doing the right thing, vs flying just out in some lot, but it sounds like even a regular AMA field is just as vulnerable, I guess if some pilot decides to get his jollies buzzing an R/C flying area there's not a lot that can be done, except get out of his way.

We'd pull that kind of stunt and we'd be in Federal prison, but they can do it pretty much free will, not smart granted, but they can do it.

Oh well.

COMMON SENSE
even if he is totally in the wrong
GET OUT OF THE WAY AS FAST AS POSSIBLE
if you hit him or he hits you or has to take evasive action because of a model YOU WILL LOSE
BIG TIME
when you see full scaleget away from them
dont try to figure out who is right or wrong
if s hits the fan
it will be all over YOU

He wouldn't try playing chicken a second time after contact ever again!

I am with the bigger boat rule just out of common sense

we had a similar problem at a field I flew some time ago, a commercial operator used to his pax for joyrides and fly low and slow over our field. we hit him with a range finder to register him at 175 feet, where his min was 500 agl. we contacted the airport and they painted him at the same so we lodged a formal complaint, the result was he got a roasting. he then had the nerve to come to the field cussing us out and threatening to stomp on our planes etc. We ended up calling the cops before some of us took more direct action. He swore he had every right to low fly over our airfield just to show his clients. This seems to be the attitude of small aircraft, whether flingwings or fixed and have seen it over a number of fields in my travels. what to do about it I dont know, its up to relevant authorities to kick butts where needed I think. and before an incident happens

Yeah, I know that I should give right of way to full scale, that is common sense. I guess it just ticked me off that this guy knew he and I had a close call, as he turned away as I did
But for him then to revert back and fly right into the thick of things, could easily have been ugly for both sides.

I guess even full scale has a few questionable pilots too. I think I've even flown with a few of them on some of the landings I've experienced in my time on airliners. LOL

Funny thing, this is the second time I've met a heli in the air up close and personal. Way back when, I was flying another Cub all by my lonesome in another field. Got to see an Apache real close. As in enough to see the pilots quite well. They made it quite obvious that I was to land. Made real sure I understood by first hooving right where I was and using both the chopper and hand signals to tell me to land. Even after I did so they stayed until I loaded up and left.

I afterwards found out that the Secret Service was scouting out secondary routes for a visit by Pres. Bush. The FAA had closed all air traffic in those zones. The military was used for the air scouting of these routes, and apparantly enforcing the rules too. That's when I learned that R/C had to follow full scale rules too.

<i>Most of these areas have 1500 agl rules to not disturb wildlife, at least that's true out here in the socialist republic of cali. </i>

For Federal parks it is 2000 feet, but of course it doesn't apply to State parks. If it is a county park there may be no such rule. Helicoptors are given waivers for the 500 and 1000 AGL rules for transportation in a city, and specific work, but generally that waiver would not apply once outside of the city, or the work area. For example a helicoptor may be given a waiver for flying low over power lines for inspection, but they must fly above 500 AGL from and to the power lines.

Actually there is no explicit right of way between full scale and model aircraft. But if you look at the FAR the slower less manuervable aircraft has right of way. That is a ballon has right of way over a blimp, a blimp has right of way over a light aircraft, a light aricraft has right of way over a business jet or even airliner, and a business jet has right of way over a supersonic fighter. When they have UAV's fully intergrated into the FARS they will likely have right of way over helicopters.

Right of way is not an issue here, this is the see and avoid rule. Under that rule both aircraft have responsibility. The right of way rule is for when the aircraft are still at a very safe distance and have time to decide to make a course correction to give right of way.

As a pilot myself I know I can spot birds that are in the way, a model aircraft would be at least as easy to see and easier if painted. Also the birds have the right of way, I don't see why a faster full sized aircraft would have the right of way. I think you need to reveiw the rules, mocel aircraft are not mentioned, but it is implied that all slower aircraft have right of way. You also need to review the see and avoid rules, because under that rule both aircraft are responsible and the right of way doesn't matter.

Biggest is not the rule in boating either. It is the slower or less maneuervable vehicle, which happens to be a ship VS a speed boat, the larger vehicle is slower and less maneurvable.

If he is flying low enough to read his N number then write it down and call the FAA. They generally assume he was flying too low if you can read the number. The number size is based on its visibility below 500 feet.

That is sort of true, but most people believe that a vessel under sail has the right of way over power vessels. This in not necessarialy so, since a commercial barge tow, and any vessel under tow has right of way over a vessel under sail. common sense dictates that if he is larger, and not predisposed to give way, you probably should.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

This is an interseting topic. As a former Captain of a boat, I always went with the bigger boat has the right of way rule of thumb. Not too any situations where it came into play but just the same.

Now in this case where human lives were in flight...I give the vessel with lives the right of way no matter what. No matter how low they were they do not deserve to die because they were in a area where small toys were being used. No matter how you dice it...we fly toy's with no lives aboard.

Kevin

So with that kind of thinking you would fly an airliner right into a hot air ballon! That is not right of way is about. If the airliner sees the ballon in time he must give right of way to the ballon and small aircraft. This was a case of see and avoid where it was a last minute thing and the helicopter and model aircraft did the right thing. However the helicopter then obviously thought he had the right of way and flew in a swarm of model aircraft. Obviously when below 500 feet one does not have right of way over anything. If he flew 5 feet over the deck did he have right of way over a tractor?

I know you want to contradict me here but you read it wrong. Read it again. I was stating plain and simple that a unmaned aircraft (no matter what type) is the lesser of the two. IMO no matter what your flying from the ground, is worthless compared to human life. What is so hard to understand here? Besides this is just my opinion and no matter what you type...I am entitled to it.

Kevin

P.S. I did not imply anything you typed....you did.

"Who has the 'Right of Way'" arguments are bull, here guys!
There are actual, real, living people on board the full size.
You DO NOT ENDANGER PEOPLE WITH A MODEL AIRPLANE> Period. End of argument.
Report him afterwards, but get the hell out of the way first!

My thoughts exactly. Well said!

Kevin

Of course you have an opinion. But the right of way rules are written in the FARs and they are based on the speed and manurevablility of the aircraft, not the number of people. They really have no bearing on your presumption of avoiding hitting an aircraft full of people because that is covered under see and avoid not right of way. We don't give school bus's right of way in all road rules because they are full of children do we?