Ray its all good. This was never about the power trip that some people made it out to be. I was looking for input to do the right thing. If I am told to pursue it I wont back down. If the county says they dont care. They have notice and "due dilligence" is done. End of headache.

oh i understand its not about power, that it's about doing the right thing, keeping people safe and enjoying this hobby. it's more about one bad apple with an attitude and total frustration.

This is very strange. If you dont follow the rules at the state park field where I fly you can be arrested fined and banned and I mean from state parks. If you are the designated safety officer for the field call the rangers and have the guy run up.

it is very hard for most people to understand, and it's really hard to explain other than with small government fields, city or county there is usually only one rule, you have to have a current ama card, otherwise it's wide open, but when you have the state or federal involved, usually have a lot more rules and they do their own enforcement, or at least that's how its done around here

I tried my best to stay out of this one. I wish I would have stopped reading on the second page as I said I would. I'm not pro AMA, nor am I against it. I am not pro membership in a club, nor against it. However, I am in favor of everyone obeying the rules set in the areas I participate. I like to fly. I do not like flying in unorganized situations; so, I joined the AMA, joined an AMA chartered club, and fly in piece (pun intended, so lighten up). Well anyways, here goes. Srewinkel, no ofense. This is not personally directed at you. Your post seems to encapsulate things others have stated who hold a similar viewpoint.

You may find it hard to believe, but the county has and posted a sign to that effect (or at least agrees with the sign posted on county land).

No, you cannot (well, you can petition, but don't expect civil cooperation under those terms). Nor would your county grant such an ordinace to you or your club. However, as all other park organizations have done when there are elements of danger involved, they will grant an organization semi or exclusive use of a portion of the park, subject to cerain rules and conditions. Whether or not you like it, flying sites exist in parks, in part, due to the surety of things such as the AMA, an organization known for working within and with the law and fostering adherence to safety standards (safety - not an issue here). The AMA assists and has even done the work for clubs by putting together information that would be vital in obtaining such a field. That type of organization tends to impress civil officials charged with public safety on public lands. It also bodes well for the club's success to have all of that behind them; it implies a certain amount of trust be granted to the club.

I won't get into the scenarios presented, other than to say the OP has some authority. Authority vested in him (per the sign) that others undoubtedly adhere to without problems. However, it is not a silly thing with regard to the card. It is a club rule. A rule the individual himself promoted and supported during his presidency. That is, until he got mad, grabbed his football and went home (quit the club). This is the same individual who trespassed (possibly) on another person's property with others, until that person had enough and had them thrown off his/her land. Then, and only then did this individual decide to revist his angst against the club by returning as a non-member and refusing to obey the rules. Yes, he finally got a valid card, but only after getting caught trying to cheat and enter an event he felt he had a right to enter without a card. The club should not have to endure his attitude. He made an attempt to cheat and got caught, so everyone should not have to wait to see what he will do 01/01/2010. Remember, according to your and other's interpretations, no one has a right to ask for his card, and/or he does not have to show it if he does not want to.

True, but ccdad has been consistent. He has not varied, added, nor retracted anything. Unusual for someone who is lying.

Now, we are getting somewhere. It appears you support him because he is a rebel like you. He doesn't belong. I don't know about ccdad's club, but a lot of sites in parks are not maintained by the park. Part of the agreement, especially where buildings/sheds are concerned, is that the club must maintain the land. That means trash collection and disposal, cutting grass, improvements, etc. These areas are the responsibility of the club. The club I belong to is in a county or city park, and we have to: cut the grass, collect and dispose of trash, maintain the spectator bleachers, maintain the shelter, maintain the hedges, maintain the driveway inside the gate that only members of the club have keys to (the only time the gate can be left open is when a club member is at the field)and pay for any and all inprovements or removal of same. Now why the heck should a club do all of this so non-members can benefit from it, and won't follow a very simple rule - post your AMA card and enjoy.

Forget the need for a 2.4 board issue for now. It may seem petty to most, but it is there and its use has been defined. If you do not wish to be a member of the club. Fine. At least follow this simple rule to get along. You will be resented less and save everyone the headache of arguing with you (or worse). Don't want to join the AMA? Fine! Find your own land, build your field, make your own rules and enjoy. But don't complain when someone comes along, uses your field and refuses to obey your rules. Bet you will have to call the police to get rid of them! Anything short of that, and you will wind up in jail, or in court.

the big difference when your talking about a major event or just a small club is every major event i've been to has a staff to enforce the rules, paid, or non-paid, ie:club members and volunteers.....it only takes one guy to come in and stir the pot and ruin everybody elses weekend....everybody should try to conform and get along before they lose that site.....also, i know at our site frequency doesn't matter when it comes to posting your ama card......even 2.4 has to post for the sake of keeping the rotation....we only allow 4-5 planes in the air at a time and posting their cards helps keep track of who is up next......we alway's get the selfish guy who wants to fly right away and go home, doesn't care about anybody else and is hogging airspace all day.....i guess what i'm saying is, at our club posting your card is not "just" for proof of insurance, but also a way to insure that everybody gets their fair share of flying time.....i used to belong to a club that had a constant 60-80 pilot membership......if only half showed up on any given weekend, you could see how precious a couple of minutes of flying time could be and how easy it would be to have "too many" pilots in the air at any given time???.....so to answer another one of your questions, posting your card for safety reasons doesn't "just" mean showing proof of insurance.....safety could also mean having too many pilots in the air at the same time.....i have ama, i wouldn't say i'm pro-ama.... i fly ama and joined a club only because when i go to fly i don't like surprises.....this club insures me that there will be some kind of structure and rules in place and i can fly in peace.....too many times you get one of those anti-this and that nuckle heads, that comes under the pretenses of flying, but really just wants to stir the pot????.....

Since your reply seems to be aimed at me, I'll respond.

You bring up a very good point about rotation to ensure "their fair share of flying time" as you put it but that wasn't an issue highlighted by the OP...Only something you brought to the discussion IIRC.

I am not sure how posting an AMA card on a FQ board can accomplish fair rotation since many guys will just come to the field, put their plane together and just sit all day, then disassemble their plane and then leave while others will fly at every opportunity.

Maybe a true rotation board is in order for the busier flying fields...maybe it could work something like this: grab a number, say 1- 20... fly...put it back afterwards. If your number comes up and for whatever reason you elect not to fly, you must put your number back and start all over again. Seems a little overly controlled but nothing less would be required at the FQ board as well to insure a similarly fair rotation…just posting an AMA card does nothing to ensure fair rotation.

IMO the FQ board should be just that...frequency control...Not an AMA alter...not a rotation board...nothing should cloud the importance of frequency control...never...ever.

Maybe the simple answer on how to handle a difficult pilot is .... "Trim for level flight?"

Nobody has been able to answer this question......

What doess cccdad have that identifies him as the authority having jurisdiction?

i'll just bet you hit the nail right on the head???....because of his hot temper, he probably did run and didn't get re-elected......if he's a hot head right now, he's probably alway's been like that.....rub people wrong and i don't care how good you fly, people won't have anything to do with you....administrators of a club have to be cordial and be able to bring people together and keep their personal feelings out of it.....just as important, club member's should be friendly and willing to work together.....equally, if somebody's a "hot head" like this guy and they don't like structure they shouldn't even join a club, they should just find an empty field and fly and spare us nice guy's the drama.....the club i belong to have two flying sites, both on public land.....one is at the public airport and the other is at the public cemetary,of to one side on land they havent needed to develope yet.....we to have a list of rules but basically we enforce 3 very important rules.....you have to join the club and pay dues, because the dues help pay for improvements and maintenence.....you have to carry AMA for liability reasons......you have to have a spotter, at all times.....mainly at the airport in case a full size aircraft want's to land, but also at both sites because it's kinda hard to keep track of that many planes in the air at one time....call it a "safety" factor, although somebody will alway's disagree.....my club is one of the lucky ones to have two sites for just one club......our fields are 15 miles apart and run in opposite directions.....the cemetary field run's north and south and the airport field run's east and west......we live in south-west washington,right on the beach and the wind is always shifting every couple of days.....it helps to have both fields, depending on which way the wind is blowing.....my club administrators are authorized to implement the rules, inforce the rules and call the cops if somebody refuses to abide.....i have only been a member of this club for a couple of years and have not had to witness a "hot head" like the one in question......in my last club, where i used to live, i was a member for 20+ years....in all of my time flying i've never witnessed a hot head.....it just goes to say, that's why i prefer clubs.....they're neater, cleaner, more organized, more friendly and everybody that pay's dues and contributes to the maintenence and improvements is working towards a common goal.....every club should work together and promote this great hobby and if that means "S**t CANNING" one hot-head, anti-establishment member(ama or not?),then so be it.....if they don't want to be told what to do, they have that right???....they should leave all of us "FRIENDLY FLYERS" alone and go find some empty field with no rules to fly in......when somebody comes to there field and does whatever they want, lets see how they like it...."who" are they gonna complain to then????......OH!....I KNOW?....THEY'LL JUST START ANOTHER THREAD AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT, TOO????

i guess my point was, our frequency board is not just for frequency.....think about it?....from a safety standpoint, if that were the case and you had a different board for every scenario, where would you put them all???.....like somebody posted earlier, if everybody flew 2.4, you wouldn't need a frequency board right????....in my case, if you been flying as long as me(25+ years) i can't afford to change all my radios at once....i just bought my first futaba 2.4 computer radio that i use for one of my heli's and one airplanes.....i still need to replace 5 jr computer radios, slowly, as money allows......at my "CLUB FIELD", i still post my ama card for rotation purposes and for safety of not having too many planes in the air at any given time.....in my scenario, rotation applies in the sense that if somebody's turn is up, i don't have to go up and down the field trying to find out who's time is out.....simply put, go up to the frequency board, check the rotation, if the persons ama card is posted, that card has that persons name on it and identifies to me who that person is......i can then contact them more quickly, get my flying time in and thus get out of the way and let the next person fly????....lets all work towards a common goal....let's get in, let's fly, let's have fun, then we can "ALL" go home.......so you see, the frequency board does serve more purpose than to just control frequencies.....it help's keep the rotation going and it help's make sure that not too many pilots are in the air at the same time..... that doesn't just apply to big clubs, either.....my old club was 60-80 members at any given time....my new club is 15-20 members.....this new, small club has a few of the older, humble old men that started this club many years ago "and" a procured these 2 great flying sites.....a few of the younger guys just want to show up, put their flying time in and go home and don't care about anybody else......the good thing about the frequency board is that if they get caught, one of our administrators can put a stop to it and if it continues, they can banish that person for ever and ever and nobody in this club will ever shed a tear.....after all, this is a club and were all supposed to promote our club and our hobby and our fellow club members..... anybody that's anti-establishment and doesn't like clubs, well, they have that right too.....difference is, they just need to go find an empty field to fly in and not join an established club and not b**tch about all the rules and not ruin it for everybody else.....like the saying goes, there's a place for everybody and everybody has there place.....as somebody stated earlier, give it time and 2.4 will eventually eliminate all frequency conflicts.....in the meantime, the millions and millions of fliers like me and you should be able to find our niche as far as finding a preferable flying site and just get along.....in cccdad"s case, i think if somebody doesn't cave in. they're gonna lose that site.....i also think, right or wrong, if the rule was in place when the guy was president, being that he was president, he probably had alot to do with it being adopted???.....as somebody stated earlier, they should try to sit down and talk to him....not as a member to non-member situation, but as one fellow-flyer to another fellow flyer, after one common goal and see how that works out????.....i guess it's kinda like in a dog fight, if the one dog show's up showing his teeth, it's not very hard for the other dog to figure out what he's there for, right???....i guess i'm lucky????.....or atleast i think i am???....at our field theres a great big sign with all the rules on it.....right at the gate....if you don't like rules,cool....turn right back around and keep walking.....nobody's forcing anybody to join our club or A.M.A. or anything else....it's all optional....it's all preference....i prefer a structured enviroment.....i know what to expect evrytime i show up.....no surprises, no tissy fits, no back stabbing......just good ol' boy's looking out for each other, sharing a cup of coffee, maybe a beer once were done flying????.....maybe it doesn't work for everybody???....i'm only saying it work's for me.....i think you wattflyer's get the picture????.....is it worth "a whole thread" just because one guy does not want to post his card???....thank you for your time, little crank shaf and thank you for listening.....it's just my humble view on a touchy situation.....i look forward to seeing which direction this thread goes????....good night.....

It is a complex problem, once you start to dissect it.

If you recall, I fly on "public" land which is designated as a model-flying site, and has been since just after WW2...with no restrictions as to who can or cannot participate. For many years, there was a formal club which utilised the land as its primary flying site and "problems" would occur from time to time; problems of a similar nature to the OP's.

After a little while, disaffected club members formed their own informal flying group and forced the "organised" club to share the public site. By "forced", I mean asserted their rights to use the land without interference from members of the "organised" club. This was done quite passively, by the simple measure of just turning up and flying...there was, of course, an unspoken challenge in these actions.

After a little while, the organised club found itself a private site and moved its activities wholesale. I can only speculate as to why that happened. Why abandon a very good flying site that is FREE? My gut feeling is that it was because the "movers and shakers" could not tolerate their lack of control over the public site. In those days, the organised club comprised 140+. It's now down to fewer than 60 members, in part because of a swing towards a somewhat authoritarian stance towards its members' activities; that has largely been resolved by the introduction of new blood.

That was over fifteen years ago. Since then, the Public site has remained informal. The regular flyers organise the cutting of the runway. Most guys chip in ÂŁ5 p.a. to fund the cutting of the runway. There are NO rules posted or imposed and yet the site is not anarchic. Many people, like me, take advantage of both the Public and Private flying sites.

My point is that, without vigilance, well-intentioned conventions can become "defined" as law. Sometimes, the less scrupulous take advantage of that to exert undue control over the lives of others. We see it all the time here...it masquerades as Political Correctness.

The rebel, who is the subject of this thread, has stimulated the club to examine its own authority and clarify its powers. There's some benefit to be had from that.

I'd best quit, I'm just waffling.

This Guy sounds like he being difficult. Whether he is 2.4ghz or 72mhz he should still post. Only reason I say that is for two reasons.

1 I fly 2.4 and the few times i didnt post, I had multiple club members ask me multiple times during my flight what channel I am on. Its annoying to other members as well as the pilot.
2. Having 2.4 gives you the ability to key up your radio at any time. One day, this guy is going to be ground testing a plane on 72mhz for someone and forget to post because he is so used to NOT posting. Murphys law states that someone will be flying on the same channel. Its proper ediquette.

it's in their land use agreement, it's complcated and confusing, a sign at the field, presumably posted by the county, says the club saftey marshals have the authority to enforce the rule, bascialy it's a way for the county to have eyes and ears at the field and not have to have a county employee do their job, which brings up legal issues

What identifies him as a safety marshall? Not one of those badges that you can get at a 99 cent store, I hope? Without some easily identified credentials, what is there that would prevent any yaahoo from approaching me at this public field and telling me that my plane is too loud, or that it needs an AMA approved safety spinner?

it should also be noted that under this agreement, the club can only enforce, not set rules, the county sets the rules which is were the problems begin. the people at the county office have no clue about this hobby, and only see the insurance side of the ama, $2 million dollars means should something happen, the county is off the hook finanicaly

hopefully he has more class and gets one out of the gumball machines, just kidding, this is the complicated part, somewhere in club documents, member rosters, organation chart, etc all saftey marshals are identified, but even then all they can do is ask a violator to stop flying, past that, law enforcement has to remove, issue citations or make arrest

I can't help it but the term “safety marshal” conjures up an image of Barney Fife from the Andy Griffith show.

BTW AMA only requires a ‘safety coordinator’ for communication purposes. “Safety marshals” and “safety officers” are an invention by the same type minds that play conductor with their model choo-choo trains IMO.

This thread is describing a situation that is completely foreign to me. My club operates very well. Flyers are considerate for the most part, and are conscious of the public image of the hobby. They just want to enjoy the field and keep the club healthy. Some guys are obnoxious or rude, but not dangerous or anarchic.

It sounds to me like the fellow the OP is describing simply needs to leave the hobby. We don't need people like that. He won't join the club that secured the flying site and maintains it, he won't follow the rules, he's a jerk, and he even showed up at an event without AMA. He wants to enjoy the work of the AMA and the club without paying for any of it. We don't need people like that in this hobby.

Perhaps your club should petition the county to require club and AMA membership for the use of the facilities? Exceptions could be made for special events and new flyers if you want, but that way you would have a concrete rule to work from in order to deal with troublemakers. My club operates that way and it works well.

sure, sounds about right

County set the county rule Must Have AMA (... whole other can of worms over insurance $ reqs aside)
Clubguy is getting uptight that the club made rules about FreqBaord use are not being followed
by a county allowed (non-exclusive use) pilot that the clubguy knows is on 2.4 with AMA.

Ol' Barney means well. He just gets a little agitated when his sugar-blood gets low. Enforcin' the law is a compelshun for Barn'.

Every Chartered club is required to have a safety coordinator listed with the AMA.: here is the text from the AMA website.
Section 4. Safety Coordinator
To promote increased safety awareness on the part of all members, improve the public perception of modeling as a safe and desirable sport, and provide a means by which important safety information can be shared between clubs, AMA chartered clubs are required to establish the position of safety coordinator. This person will act as a communications liaison between the club and AMA Headquarters to ensure timely distribution of safety related material. The club safety coordinator must have Email
access.
Recommended Duties:
1) Provide a communications link between AMA and clubs in matters related to safety.
2) Act as a safety advisor and resource manager for the club and its members.
3) Assist AMA in the establishment of a national safety program to reduce accidents/incidents.
4) Develop, promote, and encourage a climate of safety awareness within AMA clubs.
Safety Coordinator activities may include the following:
• Inspect operational areas for proper signage and safety equipment as applicable.
• Conduct safety awareness training and related programs during club meetings.
• Conduct, at least annually, a safety audit of club facilities, equipment, and grounds to ensure everything is in good working order and safe for normal use by members and the public.
• Act as a liaison with the local EMS/Fire Department.
• Establish a club emergency action plan to handle serious accidents/incidents.
• Immediately report to AMA Headquarters any incidents at the club field. During normal business hours, call (765) 287-1256. To report serious injuries and/or major property damage after hours call (765) 749-9210 or (765) 212-0793.
• Coordinate appropriate first aid training for members using qualified instructors.
• Develop an appropriate communications plan to assist club officers and members.
• Review emergency procedures (fire and rescue) with club members on an annual basis.

The County park system takes it a step further and acknowledged that the club should take an active role and enforce the site rules (which are posted and go further that just fequency control) As suggested by rgm762 this is a cheap way for the county to try to cover themselves in a liabilty incident. Hence the safety marshall. In our club it is the same guy, Me.(I am the chief safety marshall) Though it is our bylaws that all club members have to take an active role in safety and can act as a Safety Marshall. So the only identification would be the club member card that we display when we fly.

To my knowledge there is no law or ordinance that would be violated even if FMCG was flying reckless. or violating no fly areas (such as over the pit area) though most people would agree that immediate action should be taken. The agreement with the county that they posted the signs advising the public that the club safety marshalls are there to enforce the site rules. would lead me to belive I have the authority to enforce site rules. The gray area is how they should be enforced. It was an easy task for years, if some one did not post they would either say sorry I forgot to post and comply, or in some cases they would not have AMA and state they did not know about AMA. I give them some materials and ask them to come back for instruction when they get an AMA card. Very freindly, and non confrontational, they way it should be.

Then comes FCMG who quit while he was club president ( he was not voted out) after a hiatus of flying in places other that chartered fields. he comes back without AMA and since I was the one to catch him he has an axe to grind. by willfully not following site rules.

I think any reasonable person would belive the authority to enforce the site rules is there, and it has nothing to do with any 99 cent badge that can be whipped out, thats cops and robbers on TV. The rules are made in the interest of safety, and in the law suit happy enviroment, limit the liability when an incident arises. No land owner public or private would give us permission to fly on thier property, unless we made some assurance that he would not loose the shirt off his back. AMA has been our best support for since before I ever imagined of flying RC.

The question has always been to find the best low key approach that best serves the goals of the club, while maintaining a healthy relationship with our county parks. I have read some very good reponses, that will accomplish this. and hopefuly the county will clarify what they expect, that will dictate how I will conduct myself. The bottom line is that If FCMG would post an AMA card and follow the few (about 10) site rules. I would not have another word to say to him, and he could fly just like anyone else.

Hey I agree "Safety Marshall" does not give off the greatest of image.

Again the irony is that this was put in place by FCMG when he was club president.

Maybe we will change it to "Safety Rangers" and were a 6 point star just like Chuk Norris or "Safety Busters" and wear a proton pack.

Ok Im done (lol)

Here's a suggestion. Tell him that if he doesn't want to post his card he needs to wear it on his person. Tell him to go get one of those pin on fishing license holders and put it on his hat or shirt.

As for the violent threats. I would tell him flat out. Next time the police will be called out. No ifs ands or buts about it.

I dont think a bend in the rules for one person is the right choice, though I dont think it would work with FCMG because he has already stated that club rules mean nothing to him.

I agree with the second part with the violent threats. Though if I have to talk to him it would end up in at least a verbal altercation like the last 2 times. I would rather avoid the altercation at this point unless I know I have the backing from the county to keep confronting him. The implied authority is there but it has not been tested to this degree with a person that has taken a willful stand and stated that he will not follow site rules. I think monitor/ record and report is the better course of action. I am not afraid of him but I am putting the best intrests of the club infront of my overwhelming desire to take him over my knee a spank him like a little spoiled brat.