Safety Issues
 

In Lou of the D.O.G.S. event and others there is an increasing problem with 3D type planes at multi aircraft type events not flying the pattern. below is a letter I have emailed to Dave Brown with my concerns and thought I would open up a can of worms here to get others opinion on this matter.


Hi Dave In lou of the recent D.O.G.S event in dayton and others I have been to this season it has become aware to me that the problems with 3D aircraft at events has become increasingly dangerous. When you have a mix of different types of aircraft you cannot have 3D planes hovering over runways etc but should be flying the pattern. You have CD's that do their job and try to keep things running smoothly and you have other CDs that let things run amok. Each season these problems get worse and I and others feel it is time that the AMA governing body stepped in as this is a major safety issue.

This Safety issue could easily be solved with a rule for events stating that everyone must fly the pattern at mixed aircraft events and that 3D maneuvers be only allowed at events strictly for Aerobats such as IMAC events. Everyone should have a chance to fly their preferred type of aircraft and have fun but when safety is an issue and you have CDs that can't or wont restrict certain types of flying when there are other aircraft in the air it is time for the EC to step in. This is a serious issue with disasterous consequences if it continues I hope that the EC will equally see the seriousness of this issue and act approperiately.

Joseph Huntley
AMA # 672180

Joe

Safety Issues
 

How about in a designated portion of the field (ie not over the runway)?

I remember the not so old days where events didn't really have a pattern. Usually that wasn't a problem. Now, everyone flys in a big oval...making it like watching racing on tv.

Safety Issues
 

I am all for P 51s and such to hover and do other 3d maneuvers as well! Now that would be awesome!

hovering
 

LOL then they would not b e flying in a scale-like manner. Theres nothing wrong with hovering other than to me it is boring to goto an event and the only thing they seem to be able to do is to hover. The problem is the safety issue at an event where you have civvy planes, sport planes, aerobats and warbirds all flying and everyone seems to fly the pattern except a good portion of the aerobats that want to hang their planes over the runway and wont move to allow takeoffs and landings. besides myself I have seen others call for a landing and some idiot decides that the runway is theirs to hover over and wont move. I have seen people call for deadsticks and accidents just barely avoided but not always avoided. This is a major problem and seems to get worse each season when some kid that just got off a trainer has to have a 3D plane and then only seems to know how to hover it and decides to goto some event and show off. Not all the pilots are newbies like that but I see and hear more and more abt newbies at clubs doing that and it seems to be more of the younger kids not showing resposibility where some of the older more experienced ones show a little restraint even then not all of those restrain themselves either. Thus the EC needs to step in and regulate this 3D stuff. There are enough IMAC sanctioned events out there where they can do these types of maneuvers that at other events they can fly the plane normally like everyone else.

Joe

PS JR im waiting to hear your stand on this as you say we need to contact Dave well I did I wonder what his response will be? My guess is they wont want to touch it they will say it is all up to the CD. Now before ya get yer panties in a bunch <G> saying im just unecessarily hammering the EC without waiting for hearing from them, I am just stating what I think will happen so when it does I can say I told ya so. I feel they wont want to tick off a major culture in the AMA to keep from possiblity of getting voted out of their dictatorial office. And if I am wrong I will gladly praise them but dont hold yer breath.

Safety Issues
 

that is why ya always carry one of those simi disposable foamie 40 size planks with ya to events. if the aerobat thing gets out of hand, center punch one of their planes. only takes one, and they start to watch a little more carefully. and before anyone starts to get upset, i also fly the 3d planks.

foamie things
 

Hehe Mongo I mentioned in one of my other posts I had a Ziroli P-40 that wasnt all decked out but had 6 3D kill markings on the nose. See if you look at most 3D planes the back half of the fuse is their sweet spot as most of them are mainly sq balsa stick framed back there. Ya know like a surgeon has to study anatomy so we have to study 3D anatomy lol. Serious I did have the kill markings on it but I dont condone them acts unless in extreme situations like almost out of fuel or on a deadstick.

Joe

Safety Issues
 

Hi Joe

For those that are unfamiliar with the subject of Dayton, let's let everyone in on the thread that precipitated your letter to Dave Brown: http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...114&forumid=34

This thread was up to 6 pages when I read through it and here are the facts I came away with:

1 A Giant Scale Fly-In was held at Dayton. It was not a Scale Warbirds Fly-In.

2 There were approximately 30 war birds and approximately 300-400 3 D type aircraft present.

3 The CD held a pilots meeting on Friday setting aside 1 hour for Warbirds before noon, 1 hour for "torquers" before noon and
then open flying, with the chance that if more Warbirds came, that they would get an additional hour in the afternoon. No flying was to take place over the runway. With the preponderence of the airplanes being "torquers" they were allowed to dominate, and did, indeed fly and hoover over the runway.

4 The original poster is suggesting that the Scale guys write to Wright Patterson AFB and complain and try to reclaim the event.

5 Joe, you have written to Dave Brown, calling for more rules and posted that letter in the thread as well.

6 Someone suggested contacting the CD about the concerns of the Warbird guys, which went pretty much ignored.

7 Gary Webb, I assume the CD, made this post:

"I guess its time to get my two cents in. I am the Air Boss at the DOGS event and my name is Gary Webb. I am not afraid to sign my name. The DOGS event has always been a giant scale fly-in period. Paul of RC warbirds.com has encouraged this to be one of the biggest gathering of warbirds yet. He nor I said anything about it being a warbird only event. We did allow time on Saturday for warbirds only for 11/2 hours. Followed by 1 1/2 hours for aerobatic type aircraft. After half time it was general flying with no hovering over the runway. We did have one pilot who did not abide by this and was delt with. We had no mid airs. There would have been separate times on Friday also but the weather and lack of warbirds present in the morning prevented it. It was general flying all day. Sunday was almost a rainout. We let anyone who wanted to stay and fly. fly. By the way the only warbird to fly Sunday was yours truly flying my small Mustang in the morning and a friend of mines 1/4 scale FW190 for the noon show. The warbird guys had already left.
Also no one ever came to me with a problem. All I heard was positive comments. Maybe before you write negative things about an event, you should at least attend it yourself!!
The DOGS members work very hard all year long to put this event on.
Again, this is a IMAA giant scale fly-in not a 3D or warbird event. The noon show normally has the same pyrotechnics as the Shelby event, but due to the weather and damp conditions we were not able to put it on this year. On sat. there were many warbirds in the air during the warbird only time and the crowd loved it. Also the noon time show was filled with a huge warbird event with nine birds in the air at a time. I flew in it myself. It was great!!
Also the photo of all the planes hovering was taken during the noon time show during the 3D shoot out that lasted for all of five minutes!
To me some one is just trying to throw negative comments on a great show for some unknown reason.
Bob Sadler said it best. He said of all of the shows he does for model aviation, the DOGS event reaches more non flying people than any other show, to show them are great hobby/sport.
Enough said.
I would like to thank all those at this time for coming by at the event to thank us for putting on our event.
Regards,
Gary Webb"


Joe, would you agree that those are the pertinent thoughts in the thread?

JRR

Thoughts
 

Yes JR they are but the reason I didnt include a link to that is because it isnt pertanent. It was one event that people were complaining about Which Gary had stated that only had 1 problem and was taken care of. Now other years and other events the problems have been stated. What I did was say In Lou Of meaning because of all the things popping up on that thread plus what happens at other events and I have never been to it but I bet Joe Nall event would probably fit in quit well with it, that it is time we nip the safety issue in the bud and have the EC take a serious look at it. I was not at this years dogs event but have in previous years and have also been to other events where this seems to regularly happen. But yes you do have those facts correct. I was just using DOGS as an excuse to act and bring this up since as you stated theres 6 pages on this hot topic and what better time to address it.

Joe

PS I knew if I baited ya ya couldnt resist to answer hahahaha
PSS Seriously I knew if anyone would be able to have an unbiased opinion you could I dont agree with ya most of the time but I wont fault you for that But I do read and respect your positions as you sensibly present all sides

Safety Issues
 

Hi Joe

Your concern seems to lay with AMA sanctioned events, as opposed to club fields. Keep in mind that IF the EC were to pass some rule, it would have to be followed by each and every club. Many clubs, including mine, would like to address the issue in their own way.

Sanctioned events are the sole responsibility of the CD that sanctions the event. The primary rule for any CD is that safety MUST be the first priority. That is stressed to a CD over and over. If a CD does not address safety issues, then it falls to the participants in a sanctioned event to bring it to his attention. If he does not respond, the issue can, and should be brought to the attention of leadership of the AMA. Simply put, we do not need CD's that do not take their responsibility seriously.

Joe, you, and every other AMA member have recourse with respect to safety issues at sanctioned events. It's just my opinion, but, I don't think the EC needs to address the issue with another rule. If the CD will ignore the most important function that he serves, why would he follow any other rules? Call on the EC to enforce the existing rules that govern a CD and your concern will have been addressed. From Gary Webb's post, he did just that.. addressed safety first.

JR

CD Discression
 

Well that would be all nice and fine to do JR but there are those CD's who may have preferences leaning toward that type of stuff and let it happen anyways or really dont care but will get an overwhelming number of 3D guys go ahead and back him up thus nothing will get done. If we are to leave safety issues up to the CD as you state then I guess (heres a can of worms) we should leave weight limits for prop and jets, pyrotechniques, autonomous flight all up to the cds as well. As you can see those are also safety concerns and the AMA has regulated them and the CD is to enforce them thus this is exactly something the EC needs to regulate as a major safety issue and the CD should then enforce it. I dont think it is much to say no #D maneuvers at an open to all event due to flight paths ans safety concerns and keep them maneuvers at events specifically for those type of maneuvers.

Joe

Re: CD Discression
 

Joe,
Your point of view is about 1/2 inch off center. <g> Where you are currently pointed will lead to unintended consequences.

If the CD is not interested in safety, as you sort of imply and I sort of agree in some circumstances, then more rules are NOT going to change his approach. In more than one case I have seen CD's violate rules after being told they were wrong. The ghod complex raises its ugly head. In short I am convinced that the more rules we add to the CD's list of things to manage, the more likely there will be rules broken.

While in general it is not an issue, why do we need to create another escape clause for the insurance at our events? You know, rule XX was broken so you have no (or reduced) coverage.

Re: Re: CD Discression
 

Insurance issues aside, the more workload put on the CD, the fewer CD's there will be. I ran 1-1/2 events (being there as a back-up for the guy running things at our "big Bird" counts as 1/2, possibly) and it can be overwhelming-especially as you can't fly your own event unless another CD takes over your duties while you do...
We have grounded pilots, we have warned pilots, and we depend on the participants to "drop a friendly adviso in the ear" of potential miscreants before they are brought to our attention.
Yes, that's right- we are all safety officers at the field...
Roger
somewhare out West...Maybe

off center
 

hehe nope my wings are level. lets put it this way just like you are all saying abt the cds not pushing the rules may be fine and a good EXCUSE to not do anything BUT If the EC adds the rule for ALL events then a lot of the idiots causeing the problems are more than likely not going to show up to the event in the first place because they know they cant play. It wont stop all of it but it is a lot better deterrent than waiting for some spinless CD to enforce the rules. Yes I have seen some good cds that work their butts off to make a sucessful event then I have seen others that couldnt care less.

Moral of the story If it is passed by the ec that the only events 3D flying is allowed are IMAC events then there is a much better chance that it wont happen at an event than trusting you have a CD worth a crap that will actually do something. Abstenance is the best policy so if they MUST abstain from it at all but IMAC then they prob wont show up to begin with.

OK i starting to repeat to hammer my point so i will stop. What really surprises me is how civil this thread seems to be really nice for a change until you guys disagree with me then i have to get angry and you wouldnt like to see me angry GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR hehehehe :D

Joe

Safety Issues
 

Joe

I hope I did not lead you to believe that safety is the only issue that the CD is charged with. He is, indeed, required to enforce the Safety Code and any other rules that his sanction would require, specifically in the case of rule book events. The CD is, in fact, charged with enforcing the weight limit, pyrotechnics, and will, in the future, be charged with enforcement of the new definition of a model.

As I tired to make clear, these events are the CD's show, within the parameters of his authority. He must live within those parameters or face the consequences.

Several years ago, the CD program was changed to make it easier to become a CD. What you have is the result of that. The EC has been looking at the CD program for quite some time. Sooner or later, they will have to address the problem. In the meantime, it is up to the entrants in an event to pursue their recourse. The fact remains that if the CD will wink at any infraction, he is not living up to the job he is charged with. Talk to him, and, if he refuses to comply with the rules, report him. We do not need him.

JR

Safety Issues
 

Joe

Once again, you are not looking at the potential unintended consequences. Let's look at Dayton as an example. 30 Warbirds, 300-400 3D birds. If you are the CD, or a club, or even the Air Force, if push comes to shove, you are going to try to make the most people happy. That means that if your proposed rule took effect, it would simply be advertised as an aerobatic event and Warbirds would be out. Is that really what you want?

JR

CDs
 

Yes I understand their duties it is the ones who dont care and like i said whining to the AMA about a cd that ignores stuff like that wont go very far when all he has to do is have a bunch of people that like him and was affected positively by him turning his head on his side. Who will the AMA listen to 1 or 2 "Whiners" or 15 or 20 guys that didnt see anything that was done wrong? Now the AMA says no 3D at any but Imac events and someone is allowed to do it it is a lot easier to get the attention of disciplinary people where they can say it is law no can do than well its the cds event and if HE thought there wasnt a problem then there was non.

See its not that it wont be up to the CD but it will make them more accountable with easy to point out turning the other way. We wouldnt need stuff like this if we had responsable people out there but they so worried abt the weight of the model that can POSSIBLY cause a catastrophe but ignore some idiot with a 35 or 40% IMAC plane hovering a few feet from a crowd or in someone elses flight path. CAN YOU SAY MORONS i mean raise the weight limit to say 70 lbs now how many 70 lb planes do you think would be out there compared to how many idiots right now are out there with their 40% 3D aircraft now which one do you think is more dangerous a heavy plane that is normally flown in a scale controlled manner and has a small chance of going into a crowd or a 40% imac plane flying in the crowds face

do the math on risk factor I think you would agree that they are even more dangerous than a plane deemed as dangerous just because of weight.

Joe

event
 

have you ever been to the dogs event? it used to be really nice event had a ton of warbirds there along with aerobats. then when the aerobats started 3d'ing the warbird guys dicided to say hell with it. 3-400 aerobats therre used to be an equal amount of warbirds. Like mose multi plane events the aerobats have taken over the skys with their hovering and ***** so the warbirds left. Now you are a military museum or AFB and you used to have a couple hundred warbirds show up every year then all the sudden the only ones that show up are areobats dont you think it is time to find out why everyone stopped coming? I am not saying it needs to be a "WARBIRD" event like evryone else I am saying it is advertised as a Giant "Scale" event even though you occasionally see 3d done in the full scale it very rarely is so if they want to fly in the pattern like the civilian planes and the warbirds thats fine and dandy but 3d crap should be out period no special times for this or that just a nice big scale event where everyone can go up whenevery they want and everyone flies the pattern. If anyone the size of DOGS held an event like that and kept all 3d crap out and was open flying all day you would see a lot of the warbird and civilian scale guys show up but intil they do away with the idiots noone wants to put a $3000+ plane in the area near those morons thus you only get 30 warbirds insted of the old 1 or 200

do you understand now why people arent showing up? if you look at the history of this event and the history of a lot of other events across the country until the idiots started letting the morons do their 3D crap on top of the runway and in the pattern you had a huge turnout of all types of planes and everyone always got along. get rid of 3D and ytou get reid of all the problems and attendance grows again.

Joe

I told ya dont get me goijng lol I am into this one as bad as the weight one prob is i dont see either having a snowballs chance in ya know what of even being looked at. remember i told ya before it will prob be ignored because of the size of the aerobat community

Re: CDs
 

Joe,
Another new rule will not solve the problem! There is already a rule on how close a hovering aircraft can get to other people so that door has been closed.

Part (all?) of the problem is the failure for there to be any effective way to provide more than simple guidance to a straying CD. If a CD insists that HE controls everything and insists on allowing ALL Safety codes to be broken, all we can do is remove him from the AMA. The way things are currently written, it is an all or nothing proposition.

With SOME of the folks we have on the AMA EC, that probably is the right way to do things. There seems to be a building amount of evidence that a couple on the EC will use their position to damage members they dislike and thereby injure the AMA as a whole.

CD
 

I hear where you and JR are coming from Jim but tell me with all the problems people are complaining about at various events it is obvious the current distance rule isnt being applied very often thus if you cant enforce the rule the best option is to eliminate that type of flying all together. yes there will still be cds that allow it and it will then be easier to purge them than it is now with the cd heach having their own discretion. this way if it happens everyone can poiunt and say hey there it was. It would also make more cd's think harder before they decide to impose their wills.

Joe

Safety Issues
 

Jim

The CD is a special case within the AMA and action can be taken against him without ejecting him from the AMA . From the Competition Rules:

"A CD is responsible to see that all safety rules
and precautions are followed to the letter. Any CD
who knowingly allows an unsafe condition to exist
is subject to the loss of his CD status.
Overall, the AMA Executive Council is responsible
to correct the deficiencies in the AMA Contest
Director program. The changes should be aimed at
protecting AMA against potential liability, while
maintaining and motivating AMA members to per-
form the volunteer service of Contest Director.
Where the position is abused, AMA needs to be
ready to act fairly, yet remove the CD designation,
if such be warranted."

JR

Safety Issues
 

Is this really a safety issue at all. Maybe I don't understand these things but having a midair over the run way is not the same thing as a plane hitting a person. I know there is a chance but isn't this just another way of justifying a personal opinion with the old you could have killed someone argument?

Joe, You've already written Dave Brown and written off his reply all in the same post, baited anyone who flies #d (try not hitting the shift key when you type 3D) and repeatedly said "just joking " after an antagonistic comments like aiming for hovering planes to teach them a lesson. Your not coming across with very much credibility at all.

This is an old argument at many fields where someone believes there is a"proper" way to fly and would like to make rules so no one else upsets there view of how the hobby should be enjoyed and everyone else should go fly somewhere else. Isn't it the exception and not the rule that someone with the ability to hover wouldn't move there plane out of the way to let someone land?

You need to open your eyes that 3D is here to stay, is some of the most eye catching things to watch for the spectators and takes a lot of skill and nerve to be proficient at.

If you are really concerned about safety you should regulate beginners with trainers because statistically I would guess that they cause the most accidents.

Safety Issues
 

actually, all the doggs have to do is,
simply state the restriction of no 3d flying allowed at this event in their sanction application. it will be so published and the cd can enforce it.

joe, when ya gona fill out and send in yer cd app, instead of just *****ing about how others do the job?

safety issue
 

OK Bassin yes it really is a safety issue. it is not so much 3D itself as it is the hovering over the runway which is 90% of the problems and the other 10% is the actual 3D maneuvers. There is a time and a place for everything. there are hundreds of 3D only events each season and it is at these events where those wanting to do 3D need to do it. When you have multi types of planes at an event all flying the pattern and then turn around and see people hovering over the runway or doing aerobatics in the pattern there is a major safety issue. there are a few major events where the CDs do a great job of keeping things safe and proper but there are a lot of events where you see them safety violations happening and the cd could care less he got a bunch of people to his event and he is happy. there have been numberous instances of people calling a deadstick or a landing and you have someone hovering over the runway and will not move.

As for aiming at them I have done it and will do it anytime i call a landing 2 or 3 times and the hovering pilot turns to look at me then ignores me I will ram it every time but I stated I dont condone it meaning I know it isnt right and dont think every one should have a target painted on them only the idiots that blatently ignore you. I can rebuild my plane and my plane will be damaged far less than the aerobat.

As for writing Dave I wrote him in a professional manner abt what I percieve as a real problem. On the same hand I acknowldeged to JR that I doubt anything will happen based on other issues of which he and I have discussed. I did not Bash him as you contend but said I rather doubt anything will be done.

As for poking antagonistic comments I can honestly say I was not I get so frustrated when good events get ruined by idiots that i have to vent. Any normal flier would be aware of his surroundings and the people he is flying with and would not do moronic stuff like flying 3D ion the middle of a pattern where there are other aircraft flying the people that do that really are acting like idiots and those that want to complain I guess we know who those idiots are and who to watch out for.

I used to belong to IMAC so I have no problem with them just goto the IMAC chat sometime and ask who knows me you will find a lot of people know me and what I stand for. I have met Mark the pres of IMAC several times and his wife they are very nice people BUT they also respect other flyers when flying.

3D may be excuiting to watch and take a lot of talent but it is a lot more than hovering in the middle of the runway and that seems to be all a lot of people out there know how to do.

Joe

CD App
 

Whenever I get to an area where I can hold a realistic event. Right now our club has its events and it is really tough to get anyone from out of town to come with some of the jerks we have here as was found out by Jeff Quisenbury and a few guys that I got to come to our scale meet. One day I will move to a nicer area with a real club and will do it I have no problems being a CD I can be the nicest guy in the world but do something wrong and I wont hesitate to tell you one more time and you can pack your crap up and go. I would rather pi** off 1 person than a whole bunch of people that spent a lot of hard earned money to come to enjoy themselves and I feel every CD should feel the same way

Joe

Safety Issues
 

Joe

Therein lies a large part of the problem. It used to be that you were required to get 3 CD's to sign off on your application as a new CD. All of the CD's I knew took it seriously. It took me two years, working every part of a contest for these three CD's before they became satisfied that I knew what I was doing. It was something you did for the benefit of your friends and participants.

Today, all it takes is any three open members to sign you off. One of the major reasons an individual becomes a CD is to solicit prizes from manufacturers for the event. Many have no idea what it takes to organize and run an event.

Having said that, I still don't know a CD that will take on an event with 100+ competitors without some experience. The larger events are run by people like Gary Webb that know and understand what must be done. The experience does not come with the piece of paper you get when you are ordained as a CD.

If you are serious about becoming a CD, do it now, start working each area of an event until you can do everything on the field. Then run a small club event. Run several, then go for the bigger events. You have to earn the respect of your club and the participants. Respect, also, does not come with the certification.

JR