Safety Issues
 

won't stay lit, and the draw is real bad...

repliy
 

Well I was Nice and emailed Bill a thank you as poste3d below then his reply:


Thank you For taking the time to read and reply. One of the Clubs I belong to is in your District and it is nice to see concern. I live on the Illinois and Iowa border so I fly in two districts.

Joe Huntley


Joe, I assure you that the AMA is very serious in resolving issues like you have brought up. Not only the EC, but the safety committee is attempting to come up with solutions. Thank you for your concerns
Bill Oberdieck VP D-7

Diplomatic
 

See JR even I can be diplomatic when I want to and need to be hehehe

I have to admit I was surprised to even get any response and have to give credit where credit is due Even though we never heard about this issue it seems they have been aware of it for sometime and not just recently hopefully they will come up with something amicable for everyone even the 3D guys cause it isn't abt us vs them it is the us vs the idiots. And to those who decide that its a warbirds vs 3D and want to throw their comments around well I just can only say 2 things 1: they need to reread and they will understand where others are coming from and that it isnt all 3D guys we are after or 2: they are the same idiots everyone is complaining about. remember guys it only takes a few to ruin for all, you should also be involved in seeing a reasonable resolution I personally think just doing away with all 3D flying at multi is the answer and if people want to fly 3D then create their own events, but when an event is open for all then I personally feel everyone should fly the same pattern. For those that think I know nothing abt 3D they are mistaken most of the JR IMAC team flies regularly at my field as they live very close and i was once involved in IMAC. IMAC fly a pattern back and forth doing their routines just like scale does the only thing that cannot be done is the freestyle type maneuvers which would basically be the 3D stuff. IMAC routines fly the same stuff as the warbirds do and can the stanrard cuban 8, loops, rolls, immelmans, stall turns etc those can be done and are regularly done IN the Pattern by all without a problem as the plane keeps forward momentum one way or the other. A hover and torque roll is stationary, a blender or waterfall falls through the pattern not along the pattern Can you now see the difference I am getting at? Aerobatic maneuvers are done by all while flying a pattern thus multi type of aircraft do not have problems. the problems start when 3D becomes involved and thats where I see a seperate event for those wanting 3D not aerobatics.

Joe

Joe

Reply
 

A reply I sent with a possible solution and hopefully it is something useful and he will bring it up at one of the meetings. It is basically the same as I just stated above but in fairness I will post it EXACTLY as was written:

Mr. Oberdeick,
I personally think just doing away with all 3D flying at multi is the answer and if people want to fly 3D then create their own events, but when an event is open for all then I personally feel everyone should fly the same pattern. IMAC fly a pattern back and forth doing their routines just like scale does the only thing that cannot be done is the freestyle type maneuvers which would basically be the 3D stuff. IMAC routines fly the same stuff as the warbirds and civilians and sport planes do, and are the standard cuban 8, loops, rolls, immelmans, stall turns etc. Those can be done and are regularly done IN the Pattern by all without a problem as the plane keeps forward momentum one way or the other. A hover and torque roll is stationary, a blender or waterfall falls through the pattern not along the pattern That is the difference I am getting at. Aerobatic maneuvers are done by all while flying a pattern thus multi type of aircraft do not have problems. The problems start when 3D becomes involved and thats where I see a seperate event for those wanting 3D not aerobatics, and that normal Aerobatics if done along the pattern is Reasonable.

Joe

Safety Issues
 

i alway thought that a loop reversed direction in the pattern, at least fer a little bit each time, and a stall turn by definition reverses direction.
so all doing these things in a patern accomplishes is to move the obsticals from stationary and low, to full of motion and at varring altitudes.
i guess that a looper would not be interfeering with a landing, most of the time, but i have seen and done loops that never got more than 10 ft off the ground too.
better to just state that no flying will be allowed over the designated runway, period. runways are just for take off and landing, everything else, including scale flybys to be outboard of the far runway boundry.

runway
 

True Mongo But I always thought it was a rule not to fly over the runway but it still happens. you fly the pattern a loop still keeps you going in 1 direction not stopped in the middle of the flying pattern. These thuings have been done for years without any problems. The only time problems start is when the maneuver is stationary or drops through the middle of the pattern.

Joe

Safety Issues
 

Joe

You keep talking about "the" pattern. Would that be the turnaround pattern, or the pylon pattern? I don't recall any rule that requires "the" pattern, at least not in the Safety Code.

Seems to me a vertical 8 or a flat figure 8 would violate your rules. Isn't the flat figure 8 one of the more revered maneuvers for scale entrants?

JR

Pattern
 

JR I am talking the oval Pattern everyone flies when they fly at events. as for the flat 8 that is one maneuver scale guys are smart enough to know not to do at an open event unless of course noone else is in the sky same with a vertical 8. Those maneuvers you usually dont see unless the circumstances permit it. Therein lies the difference between scale guys and 3D you usually dont see the scale guys doing cuban 8's etc unless the skys permit where as the few 3D guys seem to be able to do nothing else but their hovers etc.

Joe

BTW if there isnt a problem then why is the EC and safety commitee already looking into it and remedies? I mean we can all go on forever abt who does what but one thing we all know is there IS a problem with a small group of people that like to do their 3D no matter who is in the air with them.

Re: Pattern
 

I don't know Joe. What is it that the Safety Committee is looking into? You don't think it might be a problem with CD's do you? Do you think that low passes over the runway by warbirds might be the issue? I have to admit I have no idea. Do you?

JR

issues
 

I really dont know for certain either but by the reply I got I am assuming since I asked about the 3D problem thats what the response was about. we can only wait and see for further enlightenment. but if you cant see that there is a bigger problem with the guys that do all the hovering etc than I dont know what to say. If you read earlier posts I said there are those other than 3D guys doing stuff too but the ones causeing the big rift now seem to be the 3Ders

Joe

Safety Issues
 

Gee Joe, the letter I saw raised the question of CD's. Isn't that what you were writing to the EC about. I sure hope they didn't read your letter like I did.

Gee, If Bill didn't read your posts he might have read it like I did.

BTW Joe, who is on the Safety Committee? You have done your homework, haven't you?

JR

Letter
 

Gee JR if ya really hard up I can send you a pair of reading glasses :D here is the start of the last letter Where does it say I think the CDs are the problem.

Mr. Oberdeick,
I personally think just doing away with all 3D flying at multi is the answer and if people want to fly 3D then create their own events,

and from the first letter:

Each season these problems get worse and I and others feel it is time that the AMA governing body stepped in as this is a major safety issue.

This Safety issue could easily be solved with a rule for events stating that everyone must fly the pattern at mixed aircraft events and that 3D maneuvers be only allowed at events strictly for Aerobats such as IMAC events.

I did mention about some CD's ignoreing this going on but from the MEAT of the letters there is absolutely no doubt what I am meaning needs to be addressed and how.

As for safety committee no I havent done my research as far as I knew it was made up of members of the EC.

Joe

Re: Safety Issues
 

Hmmm. This is the letter I thought you sent first which set the stage for the other correspondence. I guess you must have made it clear that your concern was not CD's when you wrote again.

I'm sure you let Bill know your posting his responses on RCU too, so I assumed that you must have written more than you posted. I know you wouldn't just post private e-mails and run the risk of burning your bridges the first time out in writing to the full EC.

Well, let's see what the new week brings. I would not be surprised of you get more responses... unless, of course, you were posting without telling him in which case someone else on the EC may have seen that and alerted the others. You didn't do that did you Joe?

JR

Safety Issues
 

Oh, BTW the Safety Committee does not appear to have any EC members on it.

JR

Safety Issues
 

Joe,
You really need to step back on this one as you can not see the forest from the trees.

This is not a saftey issue at all and low high speed passes are much more worrisome than hovering over the run way.

The simple solution is the CD's handle it in any of the ways already mentioned and there is no need for more regulations. Your "pattern" rule is non-existant at many fields and the only requirment usually stated is to take off and land into the wind.

This really comes down to you just wanting everyone to fly the way you like and your singling out a group that I assume you have antagonized at events and a very few decided to piss you off by not moving when you called out landing and giving you the"look". Well they certainly rattled your cage and to get even your crying safety violation and writing e-mails to everyone you can.

By the responses you got the issue they may be looking into is people who aim at other planes over the run way and flying low past the flight line.

Safety Issues
 

BasinBum

You post the most sensible statements I'm reading on this thread.

Re: Re: Safety Issues
 

first the end of the first paragraph and start of the second plainly says get rid of the 3Ders. the latter part abt the cds is just stated as one reason why. yes I could have probably written that first letter better but i made it plain as day in the second.


Yes I posted his reply without mentioning it I did not think it was a big deal. when I said myself and others in the letter and the letter concerns AMA policy being discussed one would automatically assume that their reply would be told to others either verbally or on some forum it was not a personal email reguarding family, finances, job, it was a letter discussing AMA policy. also because the letter was addressed to every EC member its funny out of all of them only 1 has responded thus far they cant all be out of town at once can they?

Joe

Safety Issues
 

I can just see the scene at AMA headquarters.....

"Mr. Brown we just received an urgent e-mail from a member who goes by the name of ProfLooney on RCU and he's very upset!" Mr. Brown,"Quick, call an emergency board meeting of the EC" "But sir many of the board members are out of town attending personal matters and jobs." Well tell them to drop everything we can't let Mr. Looney wait another second for a reply to this important matter, e-mail all of the board members and get their feedback on it and in the meantime tell me more about the Mr. Looney." "Well sir, he is a moderator of the Warbird forum, he seems to complain a lot about 3D hovering at events, he posts personnel e-mails sent to him, he seems to always have to get the last word in and he admits to aiming his plane at other planes if he doesn't like the way they fly." "Hmmmm...about calling that emergency meeting....."

Forest
 

Well Basinbum I guess you must be one of the few who likes to 3D over runways if with all the posts and people complaining on the other forums and threads you think I am the only one doing it and no one else is so its just me complaining and that there isnt a problem. Myself, you can see this has been going on for a while and thanks to my friend JR he keeps telling me when I have an issue write to my district VP and thats just what I did and because this covers more than just my district I wrote your district VP and everyone elses so thank JR hehe. Now if you dont think there is a problem just write your DVP and say theres no problem theres just a bunch of whiners and see what he tells you I bet he will tell you there is a problem its just the solution they prob cant agree on as if they go one way they piss a bunch of people off if they go another they piss a bunch of others off.

So I have stood back and looked at the forest. Not once have I said that 3Ders were the only ones causing problems but they are the most frequent ones with the hovering constantly. yes you get people buzzing the field and do it over the runway and i am not defending them, but think for a minute someone calls an emergency landing and a guy buzzes the field and a guy hovers over it which one is more of a problem and a hazzard? The guy that came and is gone in a second or two or the guy sitting stationary over the runway hovering.


I just cant see why people HAVE to 3D at open events. Yes i know they want to fly what they like too but there are just some types of flying that shouldnt be done with heavy traffic in the air and 3D is one of them. There are so many aerobatic and funfly events out there that is organized just for that type of flying why does it need to be done at major events open to all types of aircraft.

Oh well I knew with the size of the 3D culture that we are outnumbered but in the end I dont think size will matter, common sense will prevail and since those that like to hover over the runway arent using common sense, and we know in the end who will be on the short end of the stick and affected most.

I will sit back and see if I get any other replies this week maybe Dave will be back and respond.

Joe

Re: Forest
 

Well my reply to your first point is ,LOOK AT THE RESULTS OF YOUR POLL!

And my tongue in cheek post of a conversation at the AMA is my reply to your second point quoted. Do you really think because you took 30 seconds to send an e-mail that they are obligated to respond immediately and come up with an answer that your going to post in an Internet forum? Maybe they (unlike you) think things through and measure there response so as not to alienate members and come up with a fair response. From where they sit you are probably another kook with a personal beef.

Safety Issues
 

Joe? Do you remember the topic of this thread? It is YOUR poll. At the moment, about 83% of those responding think that either things should be left alone, or handled like Dayton was. Apparently your concerns and feelings are shared by about 17% of the folks responding. It does not appear to me that you have what, I would consider, a mandate.

I know at the club I belong to that the membership would be very upset if your suggestions were put into rules. "The" pattern we fly depends on the planes in the air. We fly 3d, warbirds, civi scale , pylon, helis, electrics, fun fly planes and even a few powered sailplanes. We (about 160 of us) seem to get along quite well and would not welcome the AMA passing rules to try to legislate common courtesy. We seem to have that.

Now, it's not clear to me how you addressed your e-mails. If you sent one with all of the EC members addresses on the same one, it's likely you will only get one response. I guess we will see.

JR

Re: Re: Forest
 

No I dont expect anything to be done right away and i hope they do take time to discuss it. I just thought would get more replies acknowledging reciept of the letter and like Bill did reply and say yes it is a major issue and we are looking into it. maybe he had correspondence with the rest and said he would reply to it. I dont expect a whole lot right away I just was making the issue Known. It is not about just MY feelings there are a whole lot of others out there feeling the same way. it just so happens I am one doing what I can about it and have no problem stating I am doing it. have you wrote your VP to say it is all a bunch of hogwash? or are you just in here trying to flame me to get a response. you never answered my question. Are you one of those that like to hover at events or just someone decided they wanted to try and start some crap? why are you being so secretive at least I am open with the way I like to fly and my feelings and what I am doing about it. All I see you doing is flaming trying to get a response. If you are on the opposite side of the fence why not tell us your reasoning on how this is not a problem at all. try to Convince ME why you are right rather than try to start a flame war. JR doesnt always agree with me but at least he states facts and alternatives and doesnt go around just rambling.

Joe

Joe

Poll
 

Yes JR I have seen the Poll. I also take it that out of the leave it alone or change it then unlike what basin is saying that 69.05% compared to 30.95% or 2/3s of the people think there is a problem that needs to be adressed. The only problem is the difference in how it be addressed. You also know that just in sheer numbers there are more 3d flyers hanging around the forums than scale guys. and even with the overwhelming number difference of flyers they STILL show that there is a oproblem that needs addressed as they also know that a small number of people can ruin it for all. SO it depends how you read the poll. and the way i read it I just stated I think the only thing we disagree on is how it should be handled. that is why I chose to write it up that way to make it easy to understand the results obviously the way you read it is different than the way I read it.

Joe

Safety Issues
 

Well, Joe, and this is just my opinion, I think it was a poorly designed poll. The question stated in the poll was not and did not even imply that the purpose was another rule by the EC. I think that the results were skewed because of that and that if you ask if people want another rule, your position will be attacked with a vengeance.

Now that you mention it, it is rather interesting that with the 3D types outnumbering you about 10 to 1 that they are not taking the time or effort to bash your comments. If they show that kind of restraint here, it seems to me they must be pretty decent guys. Amazingly, they are not calling for the elimination of warbirds at big bird meets as being disruptive to the flying.

Joe, the truth is: we all have to get along. At a sanctioned event, the CD IS the key to that.

JR

Safety Issues
 

Joe,
My name is Richard Dragin and I usually fly at Sepulvada Basin in Los Angeles where I am fairly well know. I fly a 1/4 scale Extra Imac style as I am not proficient enough to 3D yet. I also pylon race and fly fun fly's.

I hover a Spad over the far end of the run way and move off when someone calls out a take off or landing except I have stayed there when one gentleman known for low high speed passes was buzzing past a full flight line. He asked me to fly higher which I thought was funny that somehow he had a right to that airspace.

I lost a plane to a mid air last week when I was flying about 30 feet up straight down the run way with the "pattern". Another plane on the same flight path took me out and the plane fell straight down on the run way and it was never considered a safety issue.

I am responding to your thread because I think you are wrong on so many levels and I am not as diplomatic as JR. I poke fun at you to make a point and and I am just responding to your posts here. I have not written my VP as I think these forums are read by folks at headquarters to get some input on issues. For anyone else who happens upon this thread, I don't want your side to be the only one represented.

The Sepulvada Basin is a completely unregulated field with absolutely nobody in charge and you know what? It runs as smooth as AMA fields I have attended. Same shoot down problems you read about on RCU as private fields same people problems as well. The main difference is that because we have so many fliers things are magnified here a bit more and every weekend is like a large fun fly event with no CD. I don't see a need to regulate behaviors and common courtesy that can be dealt with on a personal basis and for the few exceptions you either avoid them or make friends with them so you will have some form of influence to modify their behavior.