Safety Issues
 

Seems like the simplist solution is for the warbirds to fly at the warbird only events just like what was suggested for the 3d fliers to only fly at imac events. Imac events though are for competition flying, not for just getting together and having fun doing aerobatic, 3d or scale style flying.

Now If I'm going to an event that's going to have aerobatic and 3d flying, I'm not going to bring my turbine and expect to have everyone put their flying on hold for me. I'll wait for an appropriate time to fly.

Our club just sponsored a giant scale fly in open to all aircraft that fit the imaa format. At one point in the day when no one was currently flying, a person took his ohio ultimate up to fly. Since there was 1 plane in the air, the ultimate, another person took their 40% extra up to fly aerobatics also. The ultimate was staying high and the extra was mid and low. As there was only 2 planes flying the extra started doing some 3d maneuvers staying on the far side of the runway which is 65' wide. After the 2 planes flew for 10 minutes a person with a 1/3 cub decided to fly. Now the established pattern is aerobatic and 3d. After 1 trip around the field the cub lands and the person flying makes the comment to the fliers and cd that as far as he is concerned the 3d flying is uncourteous to everyone flying and dangerous and shouldn't be allowed! Now, there's only 2 planes in the air before the cub, their flying aerobatics and 3d and will be landing in a very short time. Instead of waiting for a couple of minutes to fly, knowing what style of flying was going on, the cub took off then was mad as everyone didn't change to his style of flying!!! The extra only flew 1 time the whole day as the person who owned it put on the event and was busy co-ordinating everything. The attitude didn't come from the 3d flyier but from the person with the giant scale plane! The person with the 3d plane tried to talk to the other, but he was just called uncourteous and rude. The person with the cub loaded up and left. Everyone else stayed and had a good day of flying with no incidents.

If you want to talk safety. I go to and participate in many events. I've seen stupid things done by all styles of pilots. I agree that the runway should be clear for landings and takeoffs. That should probably be true for warbirds making high speed low passes over the runway too! The person most in danger from the 3d flying is usually the pilot, not the crowd as it seems most 3d pilots tend to like to torque roll, harrier right in front of themselves. I've seen many warbirds who pushed the safety issue thru weight and speed. I was at a warbird fly in and a person had a yellow T6. 1 rule violation was that it hadn't been test flown prior. He was an experienced flier, this not being his first giant scale warbird. It seemed to fly good, however he was flying very unscale like. He was flying extremely fast, in the area of 140mph (I fly turbines so I have an idea of how fast). I think this is a 1/5 scale which would suggest that the speed of the full scale should be around 700mph!!!! He came to the corner approaching the flight line and the elevator servo gave out (while he was at full throttle). The airplane slammed into a hangar (we were at a small airport) went thru the wood wall leaving several holes including 1 which was over 1 foot wide and damaged an aircraft in the hangar. Parts of the t6 even came out the front of the hangar (it hit the rear wall). Now the fall out from an aerobat doing torque rolling is a few feet, the warbird was 40-50 feet. Of all the wrecks I've seen the warbirds usually are more dangerous. Does this mean there should be extra rules on the warbirds imposed by the ec?


Sorry for the rambling. Looking at the size of this post it's definately more than .02 worth <g>


Hoping to dodge the flames <g>


Jon

Re: safety issue
 

Well this comment is really enlightining. I would love to hear the other side of the story and what transpired with the other pilot before the "look". For someone so concerned with safety why on earth would you intentionally want to take out a plane? You sound like a pot stirring trouble maker to me and when you're at an event you must be a real pleasure for the CD to put up with.

Anyone with a large aerobat isn't going to risk a midair unless they are so irritated at someone that they are willing to risk thier plane to irritate them back.

After reading the other post I'm wondering, do you own a CUB?

CD
 

JR I been doing that for a while now but at local club I belong to 1: they already have a CD and say there is no need for any others and 2: they are a bunch of yahoos that want nothing to do with outsiders basically if they show up thats fine but the only events they want to hold are for themselves and the other local club. I gave up on them and right now just enjoy doing my own thing and going to events held by others. I worked hard this year for our scale event and we had the biggest turnout ever had peop0le from chicago area, wisconsin, minnesota, and kansas city show up to the event. we are located on the Illinois and Iowa border at the tip of the hump Iowa has on iots eastern edge so these guys other than the chicago people had a min 4 hr drive. Things went fairly well at the event but as it closed comments were made by members of local club and hassles during the event were started by local guys abt size etc of planes (which were within legal limits) trying to give these "outsiders" reasons not to come back. I was also reemed out by the CD afterwords saying he didn't appreciate my friends bringing their big planes down and causeing all the hassles that he as CD didn't need them. I told him that the ppl were good people I have known for a while with nice planes, good flying skills and that if they wanted a private event they should list it as that. Needless to say the "outsiders" walked away with the trophys hehehehe So you can see what I am up against a bunch of rednecked egotists that dont want outsiders now how can ya throw an event with people like that.

so all in all for me it is easier to just goto someone elses event than fight the morons

Joe

Safety Issues
 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[i]................snip.................

As for aiming at them I have done it and will do it anytime i call a landing 2 or 3 times and the hovering pilot turns to look at me then ignores me I will ram it every time but I stated I dont condone it meaning I know it isnt right and dont think every one should have a target painted on them only the idiots that blatently ignore you. I can rebuild my plane and my plane will be damaged far less than the aerobat.


..................snip.......................
Joe [/B]



this doesnt seem to be good for ones health . ive seen alot of references to ama rules . please enlighten me to where this action fits in .

Re: Re: safety issue
 

when a person calls for a landing and even sends his caller over asking to clear the runway and they dont move I am landing anyways. I am a buildier and can whip my plane back in shape in no time. I am serious about safety and if I could hurt someone I wont ram them but at the fields I fly at the pit area is a good 40 ft or more from the runway we all know you dont have to be standing on the runway to see your plane because if you do you dont need to have it in the air cause you cant see it. I will put up with a lot of stuff and do my best to avoid damaging someone elses plane and take it up afterwords but when I want to land or HAVE to land unless you are lading in front of me or have called a takeoff I expect the runway to be open and avail at all times and if you are in my way when I land oh well I wont veer off but land right through you. I have been to a lot of events and have seen civvy and warbirds also doing things they shouldnt but they dont hang over the runway if they go over the runway they are over and out of the way.I am not saying they are not wrong either but theres a big difference in flying over the runway and hovering over the runway.

Joe

Safety Issues
 

Joe

Sighhhhhh............

I really don't want to offend you. You can not be the anti-social person that your posts make you appear to be. From your posts, we know you build your birds, not put together ARF's. At the same time, you have complained about the way other contests are run. You have said your own club is populated exclusively with less than intelligent members. The last post implies that you can not find 3 AMA open members anywhere in the country that will sign you off as a CD. I know that is not the image you should be projecting. I am positive, in my own mind, that you are a very different person than that.

So... on to the facts. A club has absolutely no input to whether you may become a CD or not. If you can pass the open book test, get 3 Open members, from anywhere, to sign the application, and get the application in the mail to your VP with the required fee, you will be one. The VP must rubber stamp the application. I have never heard of anyone having their application rejected by a VP if they pass the test. Sooner or later, someone will need a CD to run a contest and ask you.

JR

Safety Issues
 

Well I'm over this thread as you have no credibility and the only thing I am wondering is about your name here" ProfLooney". Was it given to you as a child or is that what they call you at the flying field? In either case it is fitting.

Safety Issues
 

Here is my take on this... For what it's worth.

1. I spend hundreds of hours building a "scale" plane (warbird or civilian). When the 3Der's are hovering out past the runway that is not a problem to fly around them. Where I have had & seen problems is when they are entering and exiting the hover. I have seen three near misses between a "scale flying" plane and a large 3D aircraft just this year. I for one do not wish to risk my planes and investment of time and money in that manor so I choose NOT to fly a events where large 3D flying is allowed unless the flying is segregated.

2. Most 3D pilots are very skilled but they are expecting other pilots of other types of flying to be just as comfortable with their maneuvering as they are. This is just not the case. It is a totally different type of aircraft and flying it is quite a bit different.
3Der's NEED to understand that.

3. This IS an issue for all fliers. I do not want to see ANYONE limited in their style of flying but I think this issue needs to be addressed by the AMA. I am a big fan of less is more but I only see two alternatives. The first is to segregate the events into separate events. The second is to segregate the flying into separate times (this is what most CD's are trying now). Will some success but not always.

We all enjoy this hobby but we have to mutually respect each other's skills and limitations. There are always going to be individuals that ruin it for everyone at these events. The secret is to be sure a let the CD know what is going on ASAP. If they do not resolve it. Speak to the person yourself!

Fire away!

Safety Issues
 

Mike C,
Are you saying all that is needed is a little common sense? If so I have to agree with you 100%. Can Dave Brown and the EC make rules that cause people to have common sense? Obviously not. Is it up to a CD and ultimately ourselves to decide when to fly certain types of planes and styles, yes.

cd
 

I just didnt see a need to become a cd if i wasnt going to be running a contest around here. you know how hard it is to set up one can you imagine setting it up and everything long distance? I have no problem helping set up contests and wouldnt have a prob with sigs but what good is it to be a CD and not CD any events in your area? if there is another reason pls tell me. As for anti-social I am the most sociable person out there just look at my roles on rcwarbirds.com and here. I am a moderator do you see me pouncing on people? No I help people like with my advisor role on rcwarbirds and with my website sharing my construction tips and techniques etc. where I get anti-social is when you get people that have the attitude they can do anything they want and iof people dont like it tough. the current example is the hovering guys that like to hover over runways and at events where you have several different types of planes. I think I am more upset with the cds that dont give a crap as long as they get a large turnout whether it is all aerobats or mixed it doesnt matter. if something is described as a giant scale event and you get warbirds and civilian planes and aerobats all together in one place it is a good idea to keep the flying open all day and everyone fly the pattern and no 3D. When you see events that used to be great to spend the money and time to drive 500 miles or more go downhill because the 3D guys are allowed to run amok there is something definately wrong.

Anti-Social I think not A**hole i will agree with because if you cant be one IMHO you dont need to be a CD because you arent there running an event to make friends you are there to run a sucessful fun filled safe event. you will make your friends by running a successful event and keeping everyone happy.

Joe

Safety Issues
 

BasinBum,

Your correct. The REAL issue is common sense. However, I (and I'm sure you) have seen those individuals at fly-ins that do not practice it. THAT is why I think we need to have predefined guidelines that will give the CD's some ammo to back them up.

IMHO...

Safety Issues
 

All the CD needs to do is specify in his sanction application exactly what his intentions are. If the sanction is granted, he has all the ammo he needs.

It is only fair to modelers that come from a distance to let them know what to expect once they are at an event. That is one of the main purposes of the sanctioning process.

Common sense and courtesy can not be "ruleified". Again, any CD that does not do the job he is charged with needs to have his certification removed, in my opinion.

To paraphrase another organization's slogan: Participants and airplanes do not make bad events, bad CD's do.

JR

Safety Issues
 

J_R,

If that is possible... I Agree with you 100%. It has been my experience that it just doesn't always work out that way. I can site two very specific examples of the sanctioning not lining up with the actual event because of poor planning on the CD's part (as you pointed out in your statement above).

I've said all that I have to say about this subject. No need to rehash my opinion. It's just that, an opinion... You guys please respect it like I respect everyone else's...

Thanks for the discussion,

Safety Issues
 

>>>>>>>>>>>

Anti-Social I think not A**hole i will agree with because if you cant be one IMHO you dont need to be a CD because you arent there running an event to make friends you are there to run a sucessful fun filled safe event. you will make your friends by running a successful event and keeping everyone happy.

Joe
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Regardless of the item, when opinions clash, someone AIN'T gonna' be a happy camper.

As far as the poll question, I think that the CD and his Club should be allowed to run the event as they so choose.
For my events, no one hovers OVER the runway. Over the other side (130 ft. away) A-OK, but not over the runway and as CD I have the controlling depth perception.
I BRIEF what will be.
One violation gets a friendly reminder.
Second violation gets, depending on pilot's attitude, maybe a very stern reminder or a "Strike 3" right then. Sending a S-A to the showers is not a problem for me, but then I been doing this for 40+ years.

If you have a problem, CALL the CD (regardless of the email myths, telephones still function) and find out how he will run the show. If you don't likee, then don't goee! Pretty simple to me.
If your attendance is really important then maybe they will listen. You can always sanction you own on their date the next year.

Safety Issues
 

"Is this really a safety issue at all. Maybe I don't understand these things but having a midair over the run way is not the same thing as a plane hitting a person. I know there is a chance but isn't this just another way of justifying a personal opinion with the old you could have killed someone argument?

Joe, You've already written Dave Brown and written off his reply all in the same post, baited anyone who flies #d (try not hitting the shift key when you type 3D) and repeatedly said "just joking " after an antagonistic comments like aiming for hovering planes to teach them a lesson. Your not coming across with very much credibility at all.

This is an old argument at many fields where someone believes there is a"proper" way to fly and would like to make rules so no one else upsets there view of how the hobby should be enjoyed and everyone else should go fly somewhere else. Isn't it the exception and not the rule that someone with the ability to hover wouldn't move there plane out of the way to let someone land?

You need to open your eyes that 3D is here to stay, is some of the most eye catching things to watch for the spectators and takes a lot of skill and nerve to be proficient at.

If you are really concerned about safety you should regulate beginners with trainers because statistically I would guess that they cause the most accidents."



Posted by Basin Bum and I couldn't agree more. Some people just want the world to revolve around them. 300 - 400 3D planes and a couple dozen warbirds, wouldn't it be easier to ban warbirds from this event.

Email to Dave
 

Well I am still waiting for a reply. last 2 times i have emailed him I had a reply in less than 24 hrs. I give him benefit of doubt that mayhap he is out of town or even possibly discussing the issue with others before answering but its not looking good so far for getting an answer. Think give my VP Charlie Bauer the same email see what he says always nice to get an opinion from your VP see what they think. right JR hehe ya brining me around with all this emailing people stuff. hey maybe I send the email I sent davey to ALL the VP's and see if I can get something stirred up.

Joe

EC
 

Well I just sent the same email I sent to Dave to all the EC maybe I will get an answer Maybe I shoulda sent the same thing to all the AVPs too. that will be next maybe if nothing else it will make some awareness in these people so that they pressure the CD's of events to do their jobs and maybe even something get written up in MA mag even though a bunch of us use it more for trash can filler.

Joe

Safety Issues
 

I personally thought the DOGS show was great. I like the time for specific planes to fly. I hope to see a scale aircraft added to the blocks. I could not fly my big Cub because of radio problems but did take my smaller cub up Saturday around 3:00. It is not fun trying to do nice slow scale fly by’s with some one hovering of flipping all over the area beside the runway. I’m not putting the beaters down but a large selection of you war birds and civilian aircraft are scratch built with many hours involved in building them. As it was said several times at the Dayton fly-in the beaters can go from the box to the air in less than 40 hours. I hosted a giant fly-in just a few weeks ago. I had a pilot from out of state called me and asked what type of planes would be at the event. When I told him a scale, to war birds to 3d stuff, he told me that he would not be there. He was a scale builder and was tired of all the beaters hang over the runways at the events. I like all the 3 d stuff but do as a pattern. I have seen some set and run a tank of fuel out hovering like a helicopter. So Ok you provide you can hover, lets see what else you can do or is that it?

Safety Issues
 

Joe

Give it a go at writing to all the EC members.

Let me make some suggestions before you do.

First, Dave was in San Diego this last weekend for the unveiling of the plaque making Torrey Pines the first Historical Site designated by the AMA. That was only two or three days after he returned from Europe. He may well have a pile of things to address. If it is really important to you, call him or write him again in a few days.

If it is your intention to post information in an e-mail, let the other person know and give them the option of answering you privately, or making the information available for posting. Just posting private e-mails is, at the least, unethical. If you call, ask the same question. Most folks, EC members or not, object to having their private thoughts posted without permission. By the same token, if you say you are going to post the answer, do it, do not act as a censor, even if it reflects badly on you or your position.

Don't be surprised if anyone has seen a thread on RCU. The way you wrote your letter, it hinges on Dayton. The post by Webb might very well be used to your disadvantage. Some of these guys might even go so far as to research the issue and talk to the people that ran the contest.

Spend a little more time in putting your letters together. I am still curious as to who lou is.

JR

Safety Issues
 

Joe

Sorry my post to you did not get up until after you sent the letters.

JR

Letters
 

Hehe JR ok so i mispelled it and it sb in lieu of rofl but I will post exactly as replied even against me as if I edit it what does it do to discuss it. Here is my first reply




Sir, The EC is fully aware of the issue you bring up and is currently addressing the problem.
Thank you for your concern and comments.
Bill Oberdieck


Joe

PS like i stated in a couple posts or so back I figured he could be out of town but that I had told you I bet they dont do anything at the start. But according to the reply above I may be wrong and they will actually take it seriously I sure hope I am wrong

Safety Issues
 

y'know- this stuff is not brain surgery. If you don't like the way folks fly at the field you frequent, find another place to fly if the event you attend isn't run the way you like, attend a different event next time
Nobody forces you to go there. Just as the TV and radio have an "off" switch, you have a choice.
100% of the laws and regulations in this world came from somebody saying "make him stop that". I cannot think of a single one that came about because "you know, we really shouldn't do this, so maybe we ought to prohibit it so we won't be tempted". This includes everything from mahem to that stupid sticker California requires on servos.
Let's not regulate ourselves into oblivion! Lighten UP!

Safety Issues
 

rw Guinn

What sticker on servos in CA?

JR

Safety Issues
 

The one that says "this item contains materials known to the State of California to cause cancer...."
That one. It was on the last set of servos I ordered from somewhere...

Safety Issues
 

LOL

I made some quick calls to LHS's out here. No one has seen that. For God's sake, whatever you do, don't eat it or smoke it :)

JR