I just picked up my new Razor 3D ARF, when I first looked it over at the hobby shop through the plastic bags I thought it looked great. I could not wait to get home to get it all out and begin to put this wonderful looking plane together.

As I began laying everything out and looking everything over a different picture began to develop.
First I noticed that the firewall is slanted to one side, further observation showed that the blind nuts for the engine mounts were not in the center of the firewall but off to one side. I began to look over the fuse even more and noticed a gap in the top portion of the firewall, cracked ply in one of the formers and two cracks in the bottom deck just behind the firewall.
To top it all off the fuse had a fair bit of hanger rash and several low spots where it looks like someone sanded way to much before covering. There are plenty of dings and dents all over the fuse.

I also did not see a QC label on the inside of the fuse like the wing and other parts have, but did find a bunch of scribble from a pen as if to mark it or such.

I will be calling lanier in the morning....Will update the thread.

Here are some pics.



Dbow

sorry to hear/see that! I hope they make good and send you a replacement!!

btw I couldnt help but notice Yngwie in yor avatar He rox!!

The firewall may be slanted to one side to provide right thrust. If this is the case, the off center mounting holes would be necessary to center the spinner in the cowl. cbk

Hmm..My post disappeared...reposting from browser cache...
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The firewall should be slanted...

Its probably slanted slightly right and slightly down. This helps to compensate for the torque of the motor and deliver right/down thrust. By placing the engine that way, you won't have to artificially have your rudder control surface with a constant left turn in it and your elevator with a constant down in it. The result will be more equal control surface throw.

The more slant, the more the designers probably figured your going to overpower the plane.

As far as slightly cracked firewall formers, some questionable sanding, some slightly loose covering...I've never seen an ARF that didn't have at least one of those issues. Hell, even when I build a model its going to have at least one of those imperfections. And if it doesn't, it will after the first trip to the field...if nothing else but minor hanger damage. Now, if the covering has puncture marks...I would say that goes into the unacceptable range.

For all what you said, I would rate this ARF a "C"....there are worse, there are better....

I would probably just epoxy the firewall cracks if they weren't too bad and there was only one....but you didn't include pictures of that.

I know what you mean. I ordered one of their Extreme Stiks. What a piece of junk. I have at least 30 hours invested in it and have probably another 10 left. VERY POOR quality control. I will never buy another Lanier/Goldberg ARF again!
JB

Try [link=http://www.theworldmodels.com/para/index.php]World Models[/link].
I just got one...and the are incredible...the best overall quality I've seen. Not much work to do at all. And, my came with everything including the spinner, extras like push-pull rudder system, pre-hinged control surfaces, individually wrapped items..... I'm very Happy! [sm=RAINFRO.gif]

Sounds like limited experience is complaining here. Off center mounting holes on a slanted firewall is built in right thrust with offset alignment to center the crankshaft back onto the fuse centerline.

I have assembled several Lanier/Goldberg ARF's (Ultimate and Extreme 3D) and found them to be very high quality. The low price of the Razor may indicate they come from a different asian factory.

I find it amusing many folks will whine about some imperfection in an ARF, especially the low prices ones that you couldn't even come close to building one for that price, and probably not come close in the quality too.

I don't think "slightly cracked firewall formers"are an acceptable "imperfection". This is an issue allright...issue of poor quality, shoddy packing etc.

If thats true...stick with ARFs.

Makes perfect sense to me. Don't get to bent about a cracked firewall, but boy if that covering has a hole....unacceptable!

dbow, you have every right to be dissappointed, and dissatisfied. I would try and get Lanier to stand good on their product. Keep us posted. This is the kind of thing I would like to know about. There are too many great Companies out there who can and will stand by there product. You don't have to settle for inferior craftsmanship.

I didn't think it sounded like whining to me. If you lay down your hard earned money, you deserve to get the best they can offer at that price point. How would you feel if you called Lanier or any other supplier, with a legitamate complaint, and they took the attitude of "what did you expect for such a low price, no imperfections? Give me a break!

It doesn't matter how much you spend or how little. It doesn't matter whether it's GP, AW, SIG, pick your poison, they all turn out a lemon from time to time. I KNOW, I have gotten a few. At the same time, I just bought a Phoenix Models SU-31 for $77.03 shipped! It was immaculate....perfect!

If these companies operated under that premise, there would be no planes under $200.00 cause no one would buy the things.

dbow, call Lanier and get yourself another plane, and if they won't deal with ya, let us know.

Better take a closer look...

It is easy to see that the plane has right thrust built in. The offset holes are so the shaft of the motor centers in the cowl.

I see nothing else that really bothers me in these pics. YES there is a slight void where the nose sheeting doesn't quite meet with the firewall, but nothing a little epoxy and perhaps some microballons wouldn't fix right up.


I don't see any of the other "issues" the fella had, but it COULD be that he's misinterpreting what he sees as flaws when they are common items.

A heat gun or covering iron can srhink covering and pull it away from former tabs that may LOOK like "someone sanded too much" but in reality were sanded below flat for a reason.

Not saying he didn't get a bum deal, just that the pics only show ONE minor flaw and the rest show his lack of experience.

I have one that will be here Monday. I'll let you know what I find.

Everyone has some valid points here, it is true that I lack experience as this is my 4th plane. I have a Hobbico Superstar trainer, GP Big stick 40, and a SIG 4*60 kit.
So yea my experience is limited you are right about that.

I took this plane back to the hobby shop and was told these were common issues and to take the plane home and build it.
I looked at another Razor that was in the shop and although it was rough as well it nowhere near as bad as mine. I expected an offer to have it returned or replaced but none whatsoever. I can tell you where I wont be buying anymore merchandise from for sure. I think I will just stick with Tower which I have always had tremendous service. In the past they replace issues like this without question.

Anyway I am building this plane, I have found more issues inside the fuse where one rear former was crooked and not glued properly. The light ply inside the fuse for the bellcrank had a big gob of glue between it and the fuse wall so it would not sit flush. I had to remove it and add another piece.
I am having to put a lot more work into this plane than I expected but I think it will turn out o.k as long as I can keep the weight down. It has become a more of a challange now and also a learning experience.


Some mentioned the issue of cost and I agree, I could have picked up a GP Ucando 3D for much less and gotten much better build quality. This Lanier ARF just plain sucks!


I do appreciate the comments and advice.

Dbow

Bring your plane to your LHS to see what they will do for you. They may order a new fuse for you or give you something to compensate.

Interesting that you're not happy with your Lanier product. I'm trying to build a Lanier Citabria right now and am not happy with it. The first one I bought from the LHS had a BIG ding in the fuselage with cracked wood and everything. The box was not damaged so I believe the fuse was packed that way. My LHS gave me my money back. The second one came from Tower and was undamaged but so far is missing the blind nuts for mounting the engine and and is missing the cowl engine mounting blocks. Lanier promptly sent the missing hardware to me but the directions are so poor that I can't figue out how to mount the cowl blocks. There were more blocks in the package that Lanier sent me than my manual mentions so which ones are for mounting the cowl? I"m not Einstein or anything but I'm no dummy either and this "ARF" is bumming me out!!

Seanychen,

I stated in my previous post that I did take the ARF back to the hobbyshop I purchased it from. The owner did not offer to replace or compensate me in anyway. He did offer some suggestions as to how to fix the problems and said that the issues were normal.

I have not really purchased anything from him before and this became a good opportunity to find out what his customer service is like. I can tell you that I wont purchase anything else in his store from now on. Im not mad or anything I just would rather spend my money where customer service is better and I wont be telling anyone about the store as I have done in the past. I wont say anything bad, I just wont say anything.

Dbow

It's too bad that LHS owners don't realize how important customer service is. I have had a few dealings with the LHS here, and I always get attitude. I buy my planes from Tower or Quantum. Never have an issue with customer service. I mentioned to one owner/employee of an unnamed shop, that I bought my planes online and he went off about how you will get ripped off, and the poor service after the sale. Bad mouthing Tower, instead of trying to one up them to keep his local business. Oh well.

It seems in most cases the LHS has little or no competition, and I think this adds to the "attitude" problem. They don't have to work as hard to get your business.

There is a shop here that offers 10% off of Towers prices. Haven't had any dealings with them though.

Good luck dbow with your plane. After reading this thread I will stay clear of Lanier models.

Who offers goods at 10% less then tower? I' like to check them out.

Aeronaut,

I agree about the hobby shop and customer service, I dont think the owner in my case did anything out of the ordinary in comparison to other shops. In most cases they dont even support you and send you back to the manufacturer.

I should probably clarify a little about my situation and I will try to do so in this post.

First, I would not tell anyone to stay away from Lanier ARF's, I base this on the fact that my situation is the only plane that I have ever owned from this company. While I feel it could be looked at as a second or lower grade ARF, I dont think it means that they all come out that way. I guess I would not have a problem buyng one of thier arfs from Tower because I know if I have issues that they will resolve them.

As for the Hobby shop, I think the owner is a good guy, he has supported me in building the model and would probably help me build the thing if I asked.
I am just very anal when it comes to customer service, I normally buy most of my larger items from Tower and I have never had to argue with them about anything. My recent GP big stick 40 arrived with a crack in the outer portion of the wing. I called Tower and told them it was cracked and without question there was a new wing on the way. They didnt say "You can CA it" but rather "we are sending out a replacement" and that was the end of that.

So thats what I look for when I purchase from a hobby shop, I dont feel that I should have to argue or put up a fight to get resolution. And in this case the model is workable, its not as if it was broken in half in the box. Im not mad, I just choose not to purchase my larger items in the hobby shop and I certainly cant tell someone else to purchase large items there, I have to send them in Towers direction. I know they will get good service from Tower and be happy with the hobby.

Also notice how I didnt mention a name of the hobby shop, and I wouldnt do it, I dont put out bad information unless its warranted and would protect someone from a bad situation.
I would actually rate this particular hobby shop as one of the best in comparison to others in the area because the owner does take the time to support the details.

I hope I have clarified myself in this post because I dont always come across in writing as I would like.


Dbow

Well guys stop looking for it YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET IT!!! period, it is a matter of Volume 2 or 3 arfs or kits a week to 100 to 200 arfs or kits for Tower (or other mininons like that) ... LHS complains too much gets dropped from distributor list or asked to increase the $$$ value of next purchase, LHS has to deal with taxes, building codes, make the store front look nice, sixteh sense to get inside the head of the next customer that complains that HIS gadget is the ONE they should have in stock.. not tbe other regardless of popularity.....
Besides, teh emplyee at towe who manages the complaints is well trained, agreeable but his (or her) job depends on being nicer to you... does not have to worry about how many kits or arf are sitting on the LHS since kngdom come....
Hey Lanier.. I sold 2000 of your arfs; 50 were crap so give me credit, improve them and put me down for another 2000 (that's tower)
Lanier Sir.. you know i have managed to sell one of your arfs this week, yup the customer is not satisfied and I took it back.. yeah i can send it to you but whopays the postage???.. not you huh... well you know i wonder if i can sell the other two arfs sittign here since word at the local club is that they are crap... what?? i know they are not crap.. but I might return them what??? you give me parcial credit until next order..HMMM ?? and the customer is mad at me.. well I wonder if I'm inthe wrong business........
SO another LHS bites the dust ..... and Rc goes the way of the hamburguer.. MCDonalds.. Imean RC uNIVersity

You have some valid points there, but that does not justify a shop owner not offering to take back or replace an item.
Im not in the business of selling hobby products, so it makes no difference to me what happens behind the scenes. I pay my money and expect to get what I paid for, if its not right then its the burden of the seller to make good. Its always been that way and it always will be no matter what you are trading.

Most shops push you off and tell you to go to the manufacturer with your problems. That is just unacceptable in my book, and I wont purchase there again after that happens. If someone sells a product as new and good condition then its the sellers burden to uphold that status of that item.

Should anyone as a consumer sacrafice quality or being content because a shop owner has a heavier load to carry than Tower?
Certainly not!

A shop owner runs his own business and if they cant find a way to compete with Tower thats not my problem. I have another local shop that DOES make sure the consumer is happy, I buy there when I can. They are however limited in what they carry so like I said earlier, I stick with Tower mostly. They dont seem to have a problem with competition, and everytime I go in there its packed with people with smiles on their faces.


Dbow

Well my second one is in...

The first was badly mangled by Airborne...

The second one came by way of UPS... and arrived in good condition...

Both of the ARFS I received seemed built very well. Covering was nice an no wrinkles. Everything was there and I am about halfway thru the assembly in 6 hours. So far so good... I don't see anything badly wrong, but a few minor things will be reported in the review.

Across the board it's a good looking plane with middle of the road quality. I'm more interested in the flight characteristics. The U-Can-Do is a nice plane but it has it's flaws just like any other.

The Razor "looks" small mostly due to the wing style and the narrow fuse. But it FEELS light....

News at 11...

I've had six Razors. Mine are all very nice. Kept two, sold one, three still for sale. I don't believe that dbow's generalized statement applies across the board here. These are a lot nicer than most ARFs I've seen... and I've seen a lot.

dbow:

I have to agree with you on this one. Yes, I know what it's like to be a small shop owner (I was one, in computers). I also know that not every ARF that comes off the line is as good as the first. (I bought 2 GP Patty Wagstaf Extra's. The first was perfect until it's demise. The 2nd one the covering was terrible, the glue joints needed to be redone, etc, etc.) Point being, I know ARF's are not always perfect and sometimes we either have to put up with the 'fix up' job because we want the plane now, not yesterday or take a step back and say, this is really unacceptable. If it is, then your LHS should take it back or make some sort of compromise (if needed). Now, the only reason I'm posting this is because the LHS here is very well known. He's been in business for two generations now, going on the third. He will literally bend over back wards to make his sale right. If the ARF isn't what's it's supposed to be, there's no questions asked. He takes it back and either gives you a new one or a credit. Sounds like with service like this he would be distributor-less. He's not, in fact he deals with all the big ones. He even tried to make good on a bunch of defective products from one big company and they did what SwampFlier said. They told him no way these could all be defective and told him in so many words to eat them. Well, needless to say he doesn't carry their products anymore and if you ask why, he'll gladly tell you.

Point here is, he's got the best customer service I've ever seen. If something isn't right he gives you a new one, a credit, fixes it, what ever will make the customer happy without questions and does it with a smile. Now think about it, is it no wonder he's been in business so long, from generation to generation? He does the right thing from the get go and word of mouth has made his business soar. Sure folks have tried to 'get one over' on him because of this, but his staff & himself are all modelers in their own area of expertise, glow, gas, electric, cars, etc so they are able to catch the guy/gal that's not on the up & up. Still a small shop, but he manages to pack so much in there and the customers love it as he's always on top of the game.

Bottom line, customer service is where it's at these days. And I agree that your LHS should have just replaced the model or made some sort of compromise that is satisfactory to you. Just my 2 cents on this.