Well said Mafred.

Ivarb

I fly with a group here in WV that is not a club. We have no rules or president and such and we never have a problem. We are getting ready to host our 11th annual fly-in which is the largest in WV. Last year we had 92 pilots. Then we use the frequency board and set some "rules" such as flying the pattern and no hovering over the runway, but that's about it.

I also belong to a club in another town. I try not to go to the meetings very often because I don't care to listen to the same stuff over and over and all of the arguing.

By the way, our Fly-in is AMA sanctioned. It costs a little more for the sanction because we are not an AMA club and will never be.

When there are a few guys at the field, we do like the other fellow said and ask who is on what channel. If there is a conflict, then those two guys take turns and communicate.

Whoever said you needed an organized club to fly RC is inaccurate in their thinking.

If you have a fly in under AMA sanction then you are acting as a club under a set of rules wether you know it or not. You must have a CD and also use a frequency board. If you say you want AMA sanction to get the insurance coverage and then decide to let everyone go his own way then you have just kissed your coverage goodbye. BTW how do you get AMA sanctioned without being AMA members? All this big man bull about not obeying rules is IMHO just plain stupid. If you are flying at a fly in and you are not following all the "rules" I wouldn't want to be in your shoes trying to explain to the judge how your plane accidently disfigured the young girl when it was 'hit'. But hey not to worry their lawyer only wants fifty million. Bottom line. This is a hobby where very expensive lethal projectiles are hurling round a field. Each one of them can suffer any one of a thousand mishaps.
Don't you think there should be some sort of order and safety rules? I take flying large scale R/C planes very very seriously and if you are flying next to me I want you to be just as serious.

I think it is very important to seperate AMA from insurance. Everyone at our field is insured, but it is all private insurance. Every one of us takes what we do very seriously, and are in no way flippant about safety.

That being said, I do NOT feel that just because you decide to keep your field un-formalized as a club you are somehow irresponsible.

I'm not anti-AMA. I have nothing against it. I'm not anti-club. I think a club can be a wonderful addition to a field. I am against over-legislation however. I long to return to a simpler time when things were decided between men using common sense, and not legislated by lawyers.

How did this world survive 6000 years without lawyers?

Ivarb

Ivarb,
I agree with most of what you say. Indeed a group of men can function very well among themselves without a club but once one rule is established, you are now a 'club' (or pact). If a couple of you get together in the cow pasture and one of you says "The wind is from the left so lets take off to the left and make our first turn away from the flight line and each of us fly a different frequency" you have joined in a pact, committee, union, club or whatever you want to call it for the benefit of you all as a group.
By the way I share your views on lawyers (ambulance chasers).
But honestly, think about it. Judging from some of the posts on this forum some of these jokers shouldn't even be allowed to take their plane out of the car, much less fly. Rules or no rules.

Just ignor him and if he gives you a hard time tell him the "members" have voted him out of the club. So #%*k off.

Hangar Rat

I am an AMA member. Who said I wasn't? I said the group is not an AMA sanctioned club. And I said we use a frequency board at the fly-in and we have a few rules and a CD. The rules are for safety but we don't go willy nilly making rules.

In ten years we have not had an accident. We have a flightline and pilots and spotters are the only ones allowed out there.

This is the largest fly-in in WV. We have had people from 9 states come to the fly-in in the same year. We must be doing something right.

10 years without an accident. Wow!

Actually, I assume you mean without an injury. Without an accident would be impossible. The last fun fly/show I went to, the All Japan RC Show, which by the way was sanctioned by the Japanese equivalent of the AMA, had over ten accidents int he one show. Of course the inverted landing competition could have had something to do with that.

Ivarb

Well yeah ... Crashes ... anyone hurt, no.

If it crashed then it was out of control. I rest my case.
I am not saying rules would have prevented them but I am saying that every flyer at the field should get to-gether and establish a mode of conduct for the day(kinda like having a set of rules). I would like to ask all you guys reading these posts.
Where would you rather fly? At a field where everybody just remembers what everyone elses frequency is or at my field where your tx stays off till your pin is on the board?

Ive had my two cents worth and this is turning into a no-brainer.

I guess you need an 'official club' with one rule.

Rule 1: No other rules and no frequency board.

Personally I don't understand the harm in having a frequency board. Especially if a more and more people decide to come out and fly...it might get difficult to memorize 20, 30....60 peoples frequencies.

Without a club or any rules doesn't that simply leave it to everyone to make their own rules? It's public land so you can't kick the guy out ...

Mike

We were actually all happy to get the frequency board. Usually there are no more than 4 of us at the field at a time, and almost all of us have different frequencies, but it certainly does no harm to have the frequency board.

Some of us worried it might be the start of the organization of our group into a club with by-laws, safety officers, dues, etc...

Personally, I just don't like what lawyers, politicians, and marketing drones have done to us all. Vast layers of complexity have been added to everything we do. What were once simple tasks now require reams of mind-numbing paperwork. It is so easy to lose site of what matters, when we have so many trivial details that suddenly take on a powerful new life of their own.

Which brings me to the AMA.

I am pro-AMA, however they were founded as a way for modelers all over America to share their love of aircraft and flight. That is a perfect justification for the club right there. Now, when someone feels compelled to justify AMA, they always, and almost exclusively, bring up insurance. The raison d'etra for AMA should not be insurance, lest it become no more important to modelers than a car insurer is to car owners. AMA should get out of the insurance business all together. Insurance is a bottomless pit of liability, lawyers, and lost vision.

There is a place for the codification of ethical, moral, and safety standards. However, when common sense will suffice, I feel it is best to leave such standards un-codified.

Considering the size and make-up of the group, such codification seems quite unnecessary in this instance.

I thought the AMA's primarily charter was to assist with the organization of clubs and lobbying activity on the behalf of modelers. Wasn't it the AMA that worked to ensure we had frequencies available?

Regarding the insurance coverage, I believe ones homeowners insurance would first be tapped in the event of a law suet and the AMA would cover anything above and beyond the homeowners policy.

I suppose this is off the subject of the original post though.

My only point was sometimes a few rules actually minimize excessive regulation. I used to fly at a public park where there was a frequency board and about 10 straight forward rules...basically common sense. Now although the rules were established by a club which also worked to obtain approval to fly R/C from the park authority, you didn't have to be a member of the club to fly. But, you did need to follow the rules. It was pretty easy since they are generally common sense.

I also have a friend with a large farm where he invites a handful of folks out to fly and he has only one rule…you must be invited otherwise its trespassing. It’s harder to limit the number of folks at a public site.

Mike

Hanger Rat,
Judging by your call sign you spend most of your time in the Hanger anyway so where do you get off calling people ( whom you have no knowledge of) Jokers? It's over opinionated, over controling, do it my way or no way, self-indulging, self-idolizing, short sighted, uptight, ultra-conservative, probably extreme right wing, part-time aviation authorities and field nags that bring out the most unpleasant aspect of this hobby. What IVARB was trying to get across was the fact that one person was trying to impose his will upon the pact or group or club. His way was out of sync with the clan. Safety does not appear to be the issue here. Just because this group does not fly under the antiquated morass of the AMA does not mean the flyers do not adhere to some sort of common safety procedures. What percentage of AMA members have actually read the safety bylines? Yet most flyers I have ever had the pleasure to fly with abide by the laws of common sense. They don't fly over the pit area, or in the direction of the pit. They don't fly low close to the pit or put the aircraft into an unsafe pattern towards the pit. Everyone I know stands behind the prop when someone is starting an engine. They all COMMUNICATE with each other about their intentions of flight or landing. And a million other procedures of safety around these marvelous machines. Does that insure that nothing bad will happen? NO! Caca Pasa! Clevises break, servos freeze, sun gets in your eyes, engines die, people get disoriented. Deal with it!

We are getting pretty off-topic, but it is related. I firmly believe the AMA should get out of the insurance business. It should only negotiate with a number of different providers, and then let members select from among those providers. They risk their own destruction by persisting in trying to be what they aren't. Perhaps we could get a number of different insurance companies all competing to offer the best coverage at the lowest price, to entice members to their service. Much better in my opinion.

As to rules, we always had certain guidelines people would follow. It was just common sense. Generally the first time someone would come to the field, one of the guys would tell him the way we usually do it. There has never been a problem that way. The only real difference from what we had and an organized club with safety officers, is the sense of respect granted to each pilot.

It is respect that is always sacrificed first.

Ivarb

Guys let's try and keep this discussion respectful. It should be possible to discuss organization and rules without insults.

The desire to enforce or create rules has very little to do with political leaning. The only difference is in the types of rules. Let's leave politics and all the pettiness that comes with it out of this wonderful hobby.

Ivarb

Manfred my friend that description of me fits like a glove. Have you been talking to my wife?
You are also right about me spending some time in hangers, way before you were born I suspect. And not that it means a damn thing I also spent some interesting nights in a bomber over Germany.

This is kind of interesting don't you think?

This thread could be considered a little slice of 'puplic' opinion and when you look back at all of the different responses, it occurs to me that perhaps this is why it may be difficult to get the rule setters to stop. After all this is a public location and you and the guys you fly with can easily ignore the most recent rule setter, but there will probably be more in the future. Who knows in the future could someone else organize a club and could that become the majority?

I have a question though. Generally in the US you need to get authorization from someone to erect something like a frequency board in a public location. Who controls this in Japan...it can't be a free for all can it? What I'm getting at here is if someone goes to this authority and convinces them that this hobby has risk etc...could they get this authority to shut you down or could they become the R/C authority for this site?

Mike

LETS KILL THEM !
only kidding, Did you try just telling him how you feel about this, there may be an accetable middle ground.

What we do, is jsut ignore the rule sheet as best we can. It is there, and the feeling has changed, but we are pretty much resigned to it now. Perhaps the most effective solution is to just ignore it and hope it goes away.

Ivarb

Take Hostages...........................

So is the frequency board a ARF or are the club members?
I'm confused.

This is a topic that could tick off a lot of people QUICK. Me for one. Some people get TOTALLY out of hand and think the field is theirs. Most people have common sense but we do have to watch out for the "idiots". A freq. board isn't a bad idea but I don't think everyone needs to put their opinions and beliefs on everyone else, as much as they'd like to.

How about you all get together and put down some basic rules that make sense to all of you and be done with it! Instaed of one guy laying down HIS rules for all?

Just a thought,
Jeff

I don't belong to a club, used to but the stadium took our field, now I am the only one who flys on a field inside a military base. As for insurance, its 6600 yen ($52) good for 2 years $1,000,000 liability, and my home owners insurance doesn't get hit.