Moved my battery back to the CG area which moved the CG back about 1/2". It's now at 5-1/4". Still plenty stable and inverted is almost hands off. Got to move it back a little more. Still pitches to the belly on knife edge. I also need to reduce my elevator throws, it turns a lot tighter now. It's only at 9/16" now on low rate. Guess I'll take it to 5/16 or 3/8".

Thanks Mike, I thought the bigger ones flew out there. Seems you have a lot more room than we do. We also have 30-33% planes at our field but the noise restrictions are strict @ 96db and you really need some expensive mufflers for the big birds. Not to mention as soon as you pass by you need to think about turning around. I heard a 40% went down at Chula Vista recently because of the power lines. Doesn't sit well with me. Those guys are much better pilots than me and still hit those lines.

Hey guys,
I originally posted the following in this thread in the IMAC forum;

http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...20&forumid=231

but there is little activity there so I thought I'd try here. The big issue there was with the wing retention spring.

*******************************************

Me and a buddy are finishing up a pair of Staudachers. Personally I wanted the Sukhoi, and he wanted the Edge 540 but the Staudachers (which were our second choices anyway) were all that they had left.

I'm glad I stumbled across this thread because each time we put the wings on we look at each other and shake our heads when it comes to that spring.

We've basically been following along with the RCU review to put them together. In that review, he said he used the spring so we were going to go with it. Now though we'll probably go with the dowel/bolts or a maybe a dowel/longer beefier hook/rubber bands or stonger spring. We also thought of the stronger spring with the hooks as is, but I have some real doubts as to the strength of the current hook and its mounting. Especially since its screwed into not-all-that-hard-pacific rim-hardwood.

Another thing about the review that really pi$$ed me off is the description of how he mounted Du-Bro wheel axles to the stock fiberglass landing gear. The Du-Bro axles require a rather large hole to mount them. When we went to drill the holes the gear splitered and basically cracked in two. He never mentioned this might happen and now that I look at the picture, it looks like he had to make a repair himself. To fix it, I wicked some thin CA into the crack then clamped the gear in a vice. While there I filled all the missing spaces with chopped fiberglass and more CA. Then I smoothed the area as well as removed enough paint from the front and back side. I then used JB weld to put the axle in along with a large washer on the back side before the retaining nut. Its very solid now and you can hardly see the crack up the leg. I hope it lasts until I can find a replacement. We took more care in drilling the other holes but we still lost some chunks in places that had to filled/CA'ed. I know its partly my fault for not realizing this might happen but the gear looked very solid and there was no problem when drilling the smaller pilot holes. Someone said I should have used a forstner bit to drill the holes??? All done, the Du-Bro axles make a sano set-up but if I do it again I think brass tubing bushings over the supplied screws would probably work just fine. You think??? I absolutely hate wheel hubs riding on bare screw threads.

About setting up for 3D flying. What throws are you guys using? We found we can get all sorts of throw on the rudder and the elevators (like 60deg+) but the ailerons on these Staudachers were only tapered on the aileron leading edge and not the wing itself. Just looking at it, the amount of throw just doesn't look proportionate to the throws we are getting on the tail surfaces. As an aside, neither of us has flown a plane this large that was 3D capable and are going on the assumtion that we need all the throw we can get. We also didn't like the supplied hinges so we wen't with plenty of Robart medium, steel pin, hinge points. Boy was that fun...... :stupid: . Now I remember why I liked CA hinges. However, now that everything is together, the surfaces are smooth and solid and again, I'm leary about the quality of the pacific rim CA hinges. The guy that sold the patent to SIG for the original CA hinge used to winter down here and he told me all about the chemical engineering that went into designing it. I kinda doubt the same considerations went into the kits cheaper version???

We also used some Great Planes large scale horns. They work fine on the tail surfaces but the foam core ailerons dont have any hard points in them to mount them to. You can't really get them tight without severly crushing the aileron. I can see we're probably going to have to go back in and do something different here. Again, no mention of it in the review.

Here's our equipment details.

My plane:
- Super Tigre 2500 (1.5)/ Bisson pitts muffler/ Dave Brown 3.25" spinner bored and trued on a lathe to fit the ST crankshaft/ Du-Bro 20oz tank.
- Menz 18x6.
- Airtonics Stylus PCM radio.
- Airtonics 94732 coreless servos on ailerons and elevators.
- Airtonics 94102 standard servo on throttle.
- HiTec 5645 digital on rudder.
- 1400mah 5-cell battery.

His plane:
The same except for;
- Zinger 18x6.
- Airtronics 94731 coreless servos on ailerons and elevators.
- HiTec 645mg on rudder.

We've also got some additional Top Flight, Zinger, and Master Airscrew 18x6, 18x6-10, and 18x8 props to try. The last plane I flew the ST on seemed to really like the 6-10 pitch prop.

**********************************

Again I wish I had seen this thread as well as we are finally to the step of CGing the planes tomorrow. I'm now hoping and praying we won't have to add any weight.

We'll probably buy a fish scale to weigh them but don't hold your breath.

All tail surface servos are mounted in the tail. I'm hoping the 2500s are heavy enough to counter. We're using 5-cell NiCads mounted in the engine box next to the tanks.

A couple of other comments more in line with the discussions I see here;

The painted cowl lines on our planes didn't line up well. If you get them matched on one side, it was painfully off on the other. His more so than mine. So, we "twisted" the cowl, per se', before drilling the mounting holes to even out the mismatch on both sides.

We also noted that the vertical measurement to mount the engine was a little low as per the instructions. With the cowl paint lines, leveled up with the fuse trim trim lines, the center of the engine was low in the spinner cut out. By using the 3.25" spinner it doesn't actually look bad but its one of those niggly things. Also, the 146mm measurement was about 2-3mm too long for our motors. By mounting the cowl out as far as possible, we managed to get the cowl-spinner gap to about 5-6mm on the right side..... uuuugh!

Because the we had to mount the cowls out to the very limit, we have only about 1/8" fuse overlap at the top. So, we made up some 30mm x 30mm ply tabs and glued them to the supplied blocks before mounting them. Three on either side, none on the top. This allowed us to drill and tap for 8-32 nylon screws further in from the cowl edge. I've always had bad experiences with little wood screws mounted near cowl edges. This way we hope there is enough meat around the holes to absorb loads and prevent cracking. Also, the heads of the nylon screws are larger to also help distribute loads away from the hole edges.

The ST head would not really fit with out some rubbing so we decided to just cut a hole. First we made a thick paper template with the hole for the head cut out in it. The template is long enough that we secueely taped it to the fuse side just aft of where the back-edge of the cowl would be. Then we gently folded it back and removed the cylinder heads. Next we slipped on and mounted the cowl then folded the template back and drew the head hole onto the cowl with a marker. After cutting out the hole, we remounted the cylinder heads back on and it was perfect! The ST head is flat on top and is damn near flush with the cowl. It looks very cool.

As I live in Yuma, AZ, about 3 hours from San Diego, I have been to the Palomar field several times to fly helicopters and am considering becoming a member. We also like to go to the November heli fun-fly. I'm very surprised the members don't think the field is big enough for larger scale planes. Your field is one of the largest I've seen. Personally I think its a matter of some of the same "fear mongering" (for lack of a better phrase) that I get as a heli flyer. Anyway, If these things fly well enough, and survive the first flights, I was hoping we could bring them up and fly with you guys. Maybe you could teach us some stuff?? Or if you want, you are more than welcome down here. There are several large scale flyers and we have a 600ft x 50ft paved runway with unlimited airspace.

Have fun,
Mike

I ran into almost all of the problems you mentioned, except for the cowl issue. Don't know why, but mine fit perfectly using the supplied dimensions. When I mounted the engine, I put the cowl on and measured thedistance from the firewall to the front of the cowl. Then I marked the mount forthe engine so that the thrust washer was about 1/8" longer. The distance from the top of the firewall was correct. I screwed up when moving it for the offset because I measured from the CENTER of the beam instead of the edge. The nice thing about the 1.60 is that it fits completely within the cowl. The only holes I had to cut were a small circle for the plug, needle valve, and a 2" square in the bottom for the muffler extensions.

With the OS 1.60, elevator servos mounted in the tail, rudder srevo mounted just behind the wing tube, I added 12oz of weight to the bottom of the engine box to balance. If you do the math, there's about a 3.5-1 ratio from CG to tail and CG to front. If I move the servos to the wing compartment, I can probably eliminate all nose weight.

But, this thing is a great flyer. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Creek plane, given the chance. With the things I learned on this one, the next one would go a lot smoother.

Optech,

It's not the club members that don't like big planes (well, maybe some don't), but it's the Board members. I can see their point, but don't happen to agree. I like to see the big planes fly, but can understand why some 40 size planes (my Magic for instance) would not want to occupy the same airspace at the same time. I can wait the 10 minutes or so for them to land and then I can go up.

Mike

Optech,

You spelled it out about right. These are not kits for the first time assembler. The instructions are bad and you have to make many mods. Dont hold your breath wondering if you need to add nose weight.

I am real interested to hear from anyone who is coming in at the 10.5 to 11.5 pounds advertised.

If it's possible, mine is about as light as I can get it. No added weight. I did use the Du-bro axles and I guess I got lucky, no problems. If CF gear is lighter I might try it but not sure. here's my set up.

OS 160 w/Perry VP30
Slimline pitts
16 oz tank on CG
Hitec 545's on ailerons
225's on elevator in tail
945mg on rudd pull-pull near wing
422 on throttle
6V nimh
heavy, cheap, 3-1/2" AL spinner

No added weight, CG at about 5-1/4"

joebob, where does the cooling air escape from? 2" hole isn't enough.

Okay,
I just got back from my friends house where we are buliding the planes. We didn't weigh them but with no extra weight added we balance at 4-5/8" back from the leading edge at the wing root where it meets the fuse. It looks to me that were going to have to add TAIL WEIGHT??? to get a "3D" CG. The guys at Creek told us to add nose weight to get it to 4-1/4" for the first flights 'til we know what to expect. Especially since our control surfaces are maxed out for throw.

My friend and I are in a big debate as to how to proceed. I'm leaning towards taking the advice and adding the weight. However, Creek did say it would fly where we have it and could use dual rates to cut the throw down.

On the other hand, my friend points out that were not newbies and should be able to handle anything that presents itself. We've both been flying for a while.... just not "Large" 3D. Also, The RCU review states that he had to fly with his CG at 5" back and that it turned out to be fine and not maliciously snappy???

I countered that some things in that review didn't pan out for us.

Anyway, Whatever we decide to do will happen Saturday morning. Tomorrow we are going to take out the irons and smooth out some hanger rash and drill some holes to get to the low speed needle. We ran his engine up before it got too dark and the low speed was way too lean with no way to get to it.

Right now were running Mach7 (Cool Power) 15% heli fuel which is basically just 15% nitro and 18% all synthetic oil. I have a case of Mach7 "Super T" fuel (10% nitro, 15% oil) to try as well.

Joebob,
I guess I sound like I'm knocking the kits when I'm really not. Sure there are a few things that bug me but we got 'em for $200 each. If a few things are all we have to worry about then these are definitely a good deal. Even at the regular price I too would buy another one. Maybe when they get a new stock of Sukhois in I'll pick one up but the web site says they're also getting a 72" Giles. Can't wait to see that one.

However, Remcl is right, they really need to do something about the instructions.

Mhawker Mike,
Okay I understand. I don't agree either.

There will always be people that will be intimidated with other planes or aircraft in the air. Like you, I'll wait 'til free air. But, if the place is busy and people aren't giving me a chance then I'm flying with 'em. If they don't like it, they can land and do the waiting. What I try to do with my helis is just not do any of the hovering stuff when flying with others. I suppose the same would go for big airplanes. I find that once in the pattern and open sky you are just as hard to hit as the other guy. Mid-airs in typical weekend situations are pretty rare. Have you ever watched those R/C combat guys. Its absolutely incredible that with all those planes in air at the same time, in the same airspace, and intentionally trying to aim for each oither that they are not knocking each other out of the air like rain

Actually though, our field is pretty kick back. Usually when others or myself fly a heli, most of the others like to sit back and watch. The same goes when the big scale guys bring something out. It'll be neat to see some of the faces when "I" bring a large plane to the field.

Keep it fun,
Mike

Optec, I don't know your experience but if you are new to high performance scale aerobats then you need to listen when I say you must use dual rates when starting to fly these planes. For general flying and pattern style aerobatics your elevator throws cannot be more than about 9/16" at the widest part of the elevator. Any more and this plane will snap (high speed stall). It may not look like much throw but trust me, its plenty. With your forward CG it should be very stable with these throws yet plenty sensitive. You set your high rate for full deflection and 3d and switch back and forth during your flight. Only with much experience with your plane and knowing when it is about to snap can you fly on high rates all the time. Good luck!

Optech,

Definitely listen to H82... The elevator on my Extra is EXTREMELY sensitive. I've been told it's because it has a "Cap" tail. Whatever it is, my throws are WAY low now.

You can always turn the throws up later or use a dual rate switch. Try it low first. But, the thing we did notice was that we needed more aileron then we thought at first. So don't be too shy with them.

Have fun!

Mike

with the nose weight up front and all what kind of weight is the entire set-up weighing?

this is sounding more and more like a gas project the more i think about it.

I am chiming in with the same warning. I did not add any weight and came in with a 5 1/4" CG. I used the recommended high rates as my low rates and the 3D rates as my high rates. I was lucky to get it back on the ground. snapped something fierce. I am a experienced 3D pilot as far as Funflys go. I added weight to the nose (to go to 4 1/2" CG) and backed the low rates way off. When I get several flights under my belt with this bird, I will then experiment with the CG and throws, but not until then. Don't let your pride crash your plane take it slow.

FYI, take a look at my "plane in the tree" pic. I can thank an unbalanced plane and too high of throws for that..... lesson learned.

Mike

When you build and fly more aerobatics you'll start to feel light is right. A gas engine will fly this plane well but will limit 3D abilities because of weight. IMHO 120 size are too small for gas to get the desirable wing loading, but most people will be happy with it. Instead of adding more weight or a heavier engine, plan while you build and arrange the gear to balance. I didnt need to add weight and I have to admit, I would strip the plane and rework it before adding lead.

Sounds like experienced advice to me. I think I'll go ahead and add the weight and work up to things slow.

Should I use the dual rate low and high throws as recommended in the instructions? or should they be lower than that.

I'll set-up the "3D" max throws on an alternate aircraft program for safety yet still be able to "try" them.

As long as I'm thinking of it. Are you guys able to hover with the OS 1.60 and how much reserve do you have??? We were hoping these 2500s will have enough power but I know they are not as powerful as the OS. So, if the OS can't do it then I have a good idea what the 2500s will do.

I'll try to get some pre-flight pics in the next day or so. We've decided to forgo graphics and pilots and such until we find out if were happy with the planes.

Thanks,
Mike

The OS has pleny of power to hover and will pull out at a fair pace. The ST should do ok if you got them running right. I hear the ST 2300 has more power than the 2500.

I Wouldn't say they have more power but they are a little lighter.

Actually, I don't know why I always hear that people have had problems running the 2500s. Mine have always run great. The same for 2 other people at my field??? Maybe its the air down here???

Mike

What weight are you guys coming in at with the 1.60?I have the Katana powered by a 3w24 and my weight is 11 lbs. 10 ozs. with a little lead in the nose(about 4 1/2 ozs.) to balance at 4 1/2".Someone at Creek(I think his name is Dave,but not positive) told me this plane could go to 5 to 5 1/2" for CG.Granted that the Katana is a little different with the wing fairing,but if this true.I could remove most of the lead and be just under 11 1/2 lbs.

Thanks
Hank

Tripacer,

Sorry, I must have missed your question about my new pull-pull. I ended up replacing the kevlar with coated steel line. Then, I drilled holes in that rear former and expoxied tubes in it for the wire to run through. MUCH better now. I don't know if you could tell in that pic of the kevlar, but it was definitely fraying. It wouldn't have been long before that snapped (HA! get it? SNAPPED. That's probably what it would have looked like.)

Take it easy.

Mike- Viva la Creek Extra thread!

don't forget 3d is not for all, so going to gas is not always a 3d concern. Todays gas engines keep getting lighter and lighter. Light goes out of the window the 1st time i see a flyer rip out the gear or knock the motor off and its rebuild time. I am sure i will see how the extra 3ds; however, its not a big factor for me. I usually set all my planes up with a low rate of 10 degress on the elevator as this will be all i need for basic flying loops and such. If 3d is to be involved i go 10/40 degrees on the elevator. i find i don't need any more of throws on the elevator than those mentioned. I love fun flyies, they will let you get away with murder and sometime they will hurt you if you stay with them to long and move to something less forgiven in the air than them. A plane that is tail heavy (but with-in manf spec) will/should still fly well on low rates as long as you are not banking and yanking.

Yea! It was easy to see Mike. I've had a cold so I haven't done much to mine. I have filed and ground enough away that my wires won't touch anything but I still think I'll go with the DU-BRO cables that I have.

Hows your plane flying?

C Ya!
Jim

Wish I could tell you. I haven't had it out for the last few weekends (other than the radio fiasco day). Hopefully this weekend will be successful.

Take it easy.

The 225's have enough torque for flight but not flutter! I didn't hear flutter but looks like what happened to my elevator, ripped the whole side of the stab off. I was pulling out of a dive and suddenly the right stab was fluttering down to earth like a leaf! I did manage to save the plane! Don't know if it was the fault of the servo but the gears were stripped. I do know that the two balsa spars in the stab are not enough. The fact I have the surface set up with the mechanical advantage over the servo (outside hole on servo arm, inside hole on control horn) for 3D is probably significant in the failure. I had also done a super fast knife-edge spin during this flight and it may have weakened the stab.

I'm thinking of adding flying wires to mine, if for nothing more than peace of mind. Anyone know what the lightest setup would be?

I'm in the process of moving my elevator servos frmo the tail to the hatch area. Ordered an MK bell crank and will run pull pull from the servo to it. (Will have to make a new horn with two sides, though...) Rechecking the balance, I found out I could remove the 12 oz of nose weight! That, plus 1 less servo cuts my weight down by 14 oz. Looking forward to the next flights....

Hey Guys,
One of the things that I paid alot of attention too when building these planes was to make absolute sure I didn't cut any wood when removing the covering from the stab center section for glue. I've seen several planes lose stab haves from even the shallowest cuts in the wood. I've also seen it mentioned many times in magazine articles to be aware of the stress failure point that can happen. I'm wondering if this is what might have happened to H82s plane. Whatever you find, It's good to hear you saved your plane. Good Job!


Well, today was the big day. We took 'em out to fly and brought 'em back in bags


PSYCH !!!! . Actually, everything went well although I'm afraid the 2500s don't quite have the oooopmph we were hoping for. All in all the planes were tamer than we thought they would be. I did however, experience the high speed stall syndrome you guys warned about. I was coming out of a stall turn and the nose wouldn't rotate up so I kept adding elevator and BAMN! she snapped. I recovered and let the speed build up more before trying to pull out. Glad I had some altitude. We added about 9oz to get the CGs a little more forward and they feel nose heavy. Now that we know they fly straight and are not the squirrelly tail demons were going to remove the weights. I have ailevators activated in my radio so I tried it out. That was fun! Rolls very fast and axial.

The engines ave sat around for a while so were hoping they just need to be run a while to get the crud out. We also decided to try some expendable props today just in case. We used a Master Air 18x6 square tip and an 18x6 Master Air nylon "Classic". The Classic totally sucks. Lots of RPM and noise but thats all. The square tip is lighter and pulls better. I'm going to put my Menz 18x6 and try again. We found a fish scale but still haven't weighed the planes yet. They feel light. But, I'm still surprised these engines will hardly hover the planes. Hopefully with prop changes and some running the power will pick up.

Have fun,
Mike

Here's another pic. Mine is the one with the gold canopy trim.

Have fun,
Mike