Something we came up with at the Western Front Dawn Patrol...

I've actually thought about angling the landing gear forward some more. Never thought about the wheels being an issue.

Although mine didn't do it. I've seen the same reaction in some of the N-17's, when they were around. You can grease one on and all of a sudden it "shimmies and trips', and over it goes. I've made sure I have toe in to help. Take offs are not an issue.

I "rudder" almost all my WW1 birds. They all just turn better with the rudder.

This is my 8th WW1 bipe (and 2 tripes) in the last 4 years and it is by far the worst flyer. It won't beat me, I intend to keep trimming until I get it flying the way it should.

Thanks for all the advice, I will definately consider any help.

steve

hey Dean, get some snow last week?? Will we see a Camel on Ski's?

Those William's Bros. wheels are $26 a pair. They sure look cool. I'm very tempted because of the scale looks alone.

I'm really digging the challenges and loving the smooth, gracefulness of the way it flies.

Steve, I have a feeling that your Saito 72 might not be enough to give a 9.5 lb. plane the oomph it needs. Then again, you did say you have unlimited vertical. My Saito 82 seems just enough.

On second thought ...have you tried a 14x6 or 15x4 APC...the 14x5 isn't listed in the Saito prop recommendations

Which of the 8 bipes flies the best and why ...in what areas and how does the Camel lack flying qualities??

Power is not an issue. The OS70 is more than enough for scale flying. I've settled on the master airscrew 14X6 prop.

My vote for best flyer would be the SE5A in any size. I have 6 different sizes and they all fly very well. But then so did the full size. Sopwith Pups are up there as well. Also a very good full size flyer.

steve
www.hoosierdawnpatrol.com

Your link doesn't get me past page 2.

click on "tally ho"
sp

hey guys, a friend of mine let me have a hanger 9 sopwith camel 60 arf that he won at a contest. i am very impressed with the crftsmanship that put into this arf and how much they have already done for us the modeler. i've decided to put an magnum 70 4stroke i have in it. ive used the motor on several planes and it's super reliable. i'm going to use an 14x4w apc prop ive used this prop before on 3-d planes, the 70 turns it great!!! going to use good hitec servos, going to use an hitec 81mg on throttle. still not sure if i will put it on 2.4 or 72 i have two JR 9303's the new x and the older xp model. ive got a good bit done to it so far., i just wanted to ask you guys a few questions and see what ya'll think.
i was thinking of doing some flying wires down on the landing gear basically going from the wheel to the fuse in an x configuation, i'm looking to add as much scale detail to it. has anyone ever seen pics of a real camel with this?? or what do ya'll think about doing it anyway. also what scale details were not included due to it's an arf and some times they don;t do everything. i saw the leader flag on this thread but what else is there??? thanks for any input ya'll can give!!!!

Mike

Mike:

Have you tached the 70RFS with that prop? If so, what was the rpm it turned on the ground? I'm concerned that 4" pitch with a FS might not give you enough airspeed.

it's been a while since i tached it, i don't remember the numbers but i do remember that it was right at the max rpm for the motor, per the manuel. i been using it on a modeltech magic formula 3d which weighs about 6 to 6.5 lbs and it pulls it will ease. i do have other props like 13x6 but i thought the low pitch would really do well on this plane!!

mike

Mike:

The 70RFS manual says a max of 11,000 rpm. Most four strokes turn in the neighborhood of 10,000 or a little less. (My 91RFS with a 15x5 on 30% heli fuel turns about 9700)

Using your 14x4 prop, I ran this through Thrust/RPM, using both 10 and 11 grand figures:
10,000rpm: 38mph, 11.5 pounds static thrust
11,000rpm: 42mph, 14 pounds thrust

The wing loading on this aircraft, at max listed weight (8.5 pounds) is a bit over 15 oz per square foot. The wingloading vs stalling speed chart says she stalls at about 17mph (at sea level- it goes up with increasing altitude). The minimum top speed you want for a model is 3x the stalling speed. 3x17= 51mph. This is so you'll 1) have enough airspeed to have some fun 2) not have to fly around a full throttle all the time just to stay airborne.

I'd go with a 13x5, at least for the first flight. This will give you the same horsepower draw at 11000 as your current prop, and is good for 52 mph and about 10 pounds of thrust.
The 14x4, like you mentioned, is a 3D prop. 3D birds don't fly even remotely like scale birds. Scale birds need airspeed, or they fall out of the sky. I know, as I have more than a few smoking holes in the ground that demonstrate this very clearly.

Guys,
I'm just posting this in case anyone else is looking for the missing brass fittings for the tail wires.

I bought the Sopwith when it first came out four or five years ago ( when it was $100 less). I started it a few weeks ago and in the process of finishing, no brass fittings.
My first call to Horizon support went no where. I did a web search and found this at Horizon!

Horizon / Support/ Bulletins

Hangar 9 Sopwith Camel (HAN4225) Service Bulletin
It has come to our attention that some kits are missing 8 brass fittings that are required for installation of the tail wire rigging. Replacement parts are available through our product support department by calling 877-504-0233 or emailing [email protected] . Please include your name, shipping address, and daytime contact information. We regret any inconvenience this may have caused.

They're on the way!
Bob


Just some search words:

wires wire grommets brass fittings stab tail rudder rigging cables cable

If you have built the Hangar 9 Sopwith, then this question is for you. The specs show the Sopwith coming in at 7.25 - 8.75 lbs. I have installed an OS .61 for the engine and when I weigh the plane (no fuel), ready to fly, it weighs 9.18 lbs and it is tail heavy. This is with the battery inside the cowl and with the weight box and lead weight being used that came with the kit. However to achieve the correct CG, I need an additional 2.07 lbs. This will bring the total weight to 11.25 lbs exceeding the specs by 2.5 lbs. Have you talked to anyone who has experienced this same scenario or can you tell me if this will be "ok".

Thanks for your help,

[email protected]

DC3:

A couple questions:
1. What size battery are you using, and do you know how much it weighs?
2. Did you get your engine mounted as far forward as possible, or is it shoved back against the base of the engine mount?
3. How far back from the LE of the top wing is it balancing?

Mine weighs 10 pounds 3 oz, and was initially balanced at 3.4" aft of the top wing LE, which is 25% of MAC and is where this airplane should balance for its first flights, given that the tail section is so tiny. I used the following items:

-A magnum XLS 91 two stroke engine (24.8 oz w/stock muffler) mounted as far as I could possibly get it out on the end of the engine mounts, to where the fake radial engine would not fit and I made a plywood panel to hide the stuff and insure proper engine cooling. As you can see, the carb inlet actually pokes through my panel a little, that's how far forward I shoved that puppy. I have a monster prop on it, too- a 15x5 Zinger wood.

-A 2200mAh 4 cell square pack (8.4oz), mounted to the bottom of the engine mount in a plywood box I made for it. I used long engine mount bolts that go through the bottom of the box, and then used some nuts to secure the box to them. You can see in the pic that it's also right up behind my plywood panel.

-The one lb block of lead that comes with the kit. I also moved the throttle servo forward of all the others, but this was for ease of running the pushrod, not balance so much.

-A brass Higley ultra heavy hub holding the prop on, weighed about 4 oz. I have since removed and replaced it with an aluminum version of the same thing, as I wanted to move the CG aft just a tad, to help with nosing over in strong(er) winds or high(er) grass than I'm used to. Haven't flown it yet with this mod.

Your OS 61FX weighs 23.6 oz w/muffler, almost as much as my 91, so I'm guessing moving it way out on the mounts, combined with possibly a bigger battery, might do the trick for you and it will weigh about what mine does. It's worth it to buy another mount and relocate it, if that's what the difficulty turns out to be, and to get a bigger battery, as that just gives you that much more flight time.

Hope this helps. Be assured you are doing the right thing- being careful with initial balance. More new birds are lost to tail heaviness than anything I can think of. Don't hesitate to do whatever it takes. This bird has lots of wing and can handle the weight.

COVERTDC3,

That seems like a lot but I've never had a kit come in at the stated weight. I have a 120 Corsair that is said to be 11lbs. but came in at almost 16lbs.
There was a review where a Zenoah G20 was used on the Sopwith and it balanced with that engine, and as I remember they to had to mount two batteries in the cowl. One was for the electronic ignition.
I have a Saito 91 in mine but I haven't balanced it yet. I just received my missing brass parts today and I hope to finish the wires this weekend. I do expect to be adding weight.

Mustang, I agree that 25% MAC is a good point to balance for a single wing (I like 30%, but 35% is too aft), but are you accounting for the lower wing? The CG should be a little further back for both wings combined (bottom wing is further aft). Mine was stable at the 4" mark per the manual, and I think this is about 25% MAC of the airplane (2 wings). Of course, a CG in front of the 25% MAC flys fine too, but when trying to balance this bird, it requires a lot of ballast.

I worked hard on some mods to move things forward and it paid off: electric version came to 8.7 lbs AUW.

tclaridge:

The figure I used (3.4") is based on both wings. It's the classic biplane determination of mean chord, which can be used when the upper and lower wing are of the same chord: upper wing chord plus the stagger (horizontal distance between LEs of upper and lower wings) = Mean Aerodynamic Chord. In the Camel's case, the chord of both wings is 10.25", and the stagger is 3.5", yielding an MAC of 13.75". 25% of 13.75 is 3.4

The book spec, 4", is about 29%. There have been at least two postings on this thread where guys found it was unstable at that, and nearly crashed it on the maiden. I think 29% would be ok if this bird didn't have a scale stab/elevator. It's very small, something like only 11% of the wing area if memory serves.

In any event, everything I've ever read on conventional, constant chord, high aspect ratio wings says to start out at 25% and slowly move it aft until you find the sweet spot, which is going to vary from bird to bird and pilot to pilot. At 25%, it's going to be stable, no disputing that. It's also going to have enough elevator authority to hold it slightly tail low at touchdown during a wheel landing, which IMHO is the only way you want to land this bird anyway.

The final point is, if you make a small error either way when going for 25%, it's not going to result in an unstable or uncontrollable airplane. If you make a small mistake in the aft direction going for 29%, you could be in deep do do [:'(] I absolutely could not come up with a way to make mine fit on the CG machine, and had to use the fingertip method, which has some inherent accuracy problems.

Mustang Bob, you certainly got the MAC calc right. Thanks for the clarification. I agree that 25% is a good start. I have found on tail draggers that the 25% can make a nose over easier. But I have had a few nose overs with no damage, so better to be stable in the air. 30% is a little more touchy, but I find sometimes that I run out of pitch authority when flaring for a landing at the more forward CG positions. I guess everyone must find the right "balance."
Thanks again for the good input as I am sure it helps others (and me too!).

Does anybody know what the extra tube on the right side interior of the fuselage is used for? Have had my Camel for about 9 months now and have lots of questions.
thanks

CGAMI:

That's for dinosaur radio receiver antennas that have to hang out the back. If you look under the tail, you'll see the exit hole.

awsome, thanks, Do you know how and where a kwik fill fueler valve is supposed to be installed for a glow engine? Not much instrcution was given on it in the valve package.

CGAMT:

I used to use those things, but had too many of the internal valves partially stick in the open position, which results in a fuel/air leak and a deadstick landing. Everyone I know in the hobby has had the same experience, and I really would not recommend it. I've settled on the "two clunk" system. There's a third hole that can be made in the tank plug, and I open that up and attach another clunk to it. The line attached to that is used for fueling/defueling. I run the line out into the cowl, and make it long enough so I can get it outside through the engine cooling hole. Then I just put a plug in it after fueling or defueling. Much easier to use and more reliable than anything I've tried.

It is also possible to not use a second clunk, and "T" into the engine feed line between the needle valve and the tank. With this setup, though, you must be able to "pinch" the needle valve line closed when fueling/defueling. (The part of the tube between where you "Teed" and the needle valve.) I have this setup on a couple of my planes and it works well.

These are the parts I used, from towerhobbies.com

LXFU81 "T"'s
LXD747 Plugs

My Camel and the Nexstar trainer use the second clunk system, and the Mustang fill line is just T'd into the engine feed tube. You can see the little "window" I cut in the cowl so I can reach through with a needle nose pliers and pinch off the carb line when filling/emptying.

does anyone know if the throttle spring is an important piece of the engine. recently did an engine run and the screw on the carb vibed loose and made the throttle spring get lodged in the cylinder. had to take the whole engine apart and put back together again. the engine runs fine now just minus the throttle spring. Is that bad for the engine?

That's the one that pushes the throttle barrel to the right, towards wide open? I think without it, the barrel will "drift" left and right and cause variations in speed without any input from the servo. Kind of a pain.

Bob,
I had another question concerning the ailerons. while testing my radio i found that when i make a right turn my right aileron goes down. Knowing a little about aerodynamics this would cause more lift on the right side making the plane turn left. Is this how you control a model airplane or do i have my ailerons installed incorrectly? i Also thought maybe since it is a model that this would be normal since a model does not fly at the same speed as a real aircraft and that the downgoing ailerons would cause more drag making the right side of the plane move slower causing the plane to turn right when the right ailerons goes down. Thanks.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah:

If that is what's happening, you'll crash during or shortly after takeoff. [] You need to use the aileron channel "servo reverse" function to get them corrected.

Right transmitter stick to the right: left ailerons go down, right ailerons go up. (Left and right are defined as if you are sitting in the cockpit facing forward.)

Right transmitter stick to the left: left ailerons go up, right ailerons go down.

Right transmitter stick towards you: elevators up

Right transmitter stick away from you: elevators down

Left transmitter stick to the left: rudder moves left

Left transmitter stick to the right: rudder moves right

Left transmitter stick away from you: throttle opens

Left transmitter stick towards you: throttle closes

Another thing about this kit: the ailerons are hinged with covering, and Hangar 9 did it wrong. The have the ailerons so close to the wing that they bind up before you can get the travel specified. I found that by carefully heating the hinge area with a heat gun, and pulling the aileron away from the wing a little while moving it up and down, I was able to get them all moving freely.