The nose pitch after engine cut will depend on how you have your CG set; tail heavy will give you nose-up as throttle is cut, while slight nose heavy will give you nose down. I've got mine set a hair nose heavy, so when the prop stops, the nose comes down. The plane flies light (mine is at 7.25 lbs) but it's no trainer, so it will glide down a bit faster. Keep the glide speed up on a dead stick approach and wait until base/final to bleed off your energy by flaring or slipping. Avoid slowing it down too much; practice slow flight up high with power on to feel out the stall speed.

Looks like the 1.08 weighs about 30 oz with muffler.... based on the following thread, Post 11:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_18.../tm.htm#186171
A lot of happy builders are using 21-24oz motors, so I'd recommend you go for weight saving elsewhere to make up the 6-8 oz penalty of the 1.08.
A 2C 90 seems to be the best fit for these, all around, but if you just need to rocket UP the 1.08 engine should rock.
Not sure about hover and torque rolls with the extra weight. I'd bet or guess that the big prop you'll be swinging will keep the tailfeathers and ails in play real nice-like in hover.
FYI I had no problem with a 16x4" prop on this plane (w/ my 22oz Saito 91 4C) as far as ground clearance. Tips got a little green, but thats just pretty.
Plenty of power, for sure, but that's a lot of engine weight.....you'll be lucky to get 'er down to 7#12 oz with that engine.
I'd consider leaving the pants off and doing some of the lightweighting listed on this forum. My list is here:
Post #943 at http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_47...tm.htm#8869810)
Some are just so cheap you cant resist, such as 8-32 nylon in place of the canopy bolts. Even works better, as the 8-32's squeak into the Metric T nuts an won't vibrate out.
The Brass they give you is for a boat IMLTHO. Get a Dubro 2-56 pull pull system and use 4-40 rod for the (4)pushrods- you endup lighter than the CF with brass. That will save a few precious ounces.
Further back in time, cmoulder posted a bunch of other good ones, too- like one elevator servo.
I'd also vote for the better aftermarket gear that Maynardrupp found ~a year ago.

Nrad2000; sometimes a Clanky sound comes from my Saito when it goes lean, low tank level and nose up.
Not sure about the fuel draw of a YS, but am sure lean is not good. The worst plane I had for this problem had an extra 6" fuel draw.
By that I mean the tank was a good 6" from the firewall.
I either run it richer, or do the nose up stuff in the first half of the flight!

PS, after thinking about your case, another way to lean out is foaming of the fuel... is your tank "soft" mounted in foam?
I think you said your YS is pumped, so faoming or a fuel line split is more likely to lean out a pumped YS than how far you draw fuel.

First, congrats on your maiden flight success!
Dual rates = switch activated throw limits. Its OK to use both D/R and Expo at once.... as long as you understand what they are both doing and how it is setup.
Most experienced flyers will put extra expo in on high rates to give the plane a similar feel around center stick position regardless of dual rate setting.
Richard Lindberg covers it nicely here:
http://www.rmfm.org/dual_rates_and_exponential1.htm
Some used to call dual rate switches "Crash switches", and here's why:
Dual Rates are basically like moving the clevis on the elevator (rudder, aileron) while in flight! So if you think you are in low rates but are actually in high during landing or takeoff, you will overcontrol and probably crash. I once put a P.O.S. plane in because I thought I was in high rates, pulled from inverted for a half loop that should've ended up 15 feet off the ground..... but it didn't loop tight enough because I was on low rates. Yes, I was hotdogging and therefore got what I deserved, but I didn't really deserve it- the low half loop was a move I had done before.

For an example of dual rates usage, these days (15 yrs of flying) I usually set the dual rates to the standard "kit" throws on low switch position, then put the high switches 20% higher than that for starters. That way, if I need or want more throw, I kick it up to high rates. This would make a 1" elevator throw on low rates go to 1.2 inches on high rates.
A flick of the switch and I can go from tame to squirrely or the other way, depending on whether I am feeling nervous, or daring.
Also, as the plane slows down for landing (and other less dangerous low speed stunts like harriers!) you sometimes need the extra throw of high rates, say on ailerons for a cross-windy day.

Another way to use dual rates is the "other" way, which I did up until about the 3 yr mark: set high rates for the recommended kit throws and low rates at 80% of that in case you get the mid-flight jitters and want to settle down. Low rates tend to keep your knees from shaking so much.... but you may run out of control authority (not enough throw) during low speed manouvers if you are on low rates.

Expo, on the other hand, can be used on either or both positions of the dual rates switch (or neither). It basically softens up the middle of your stick response but goes to the same throw at full stick. This means that 10 degrees of stick motion near center may only give you 5 degrees at the elevator, but the same 10 degrees of stick motion at the extreme of stick travel may give you 15 degrees at the surface. So, by making up travel in the last few degrees of stick throw the total throw never changes with expo, on the other hand, dual rates actually change the total throw.
Be sure and use NEGATIVE expo numbers for a Futaba and Airtronics radios or you get the opposite undesired effect and the plane is nearly impossible to fly- jumps all over the place on the slightest bump of the stick.

Based on your maiden flight post, I'd suggest staying with what you're used to (no dual rates) and then dial in dual rates later, when you want more throw for 3D but want to be able to revert to the plane you had gotten used to with the flick of a switch(or two**). Right now, you may find learning and remembering when to throw the switches too much at once while you are getting used to a fairly responsive stunt plane like the Extra. Read your manual carefully when first using both expo and dual rates and check the surfaces with a ruler and using the graduation marks on the base of the stick pots to confirm that you are getting the desired effect at the control surface before trying it out in the air. Your maiden flight description is consistent with inverted expo settings, or just jitters, or just stunt plane vs trainer. Be sure and confirm the sign on your expo settings if this is your first venture into expo. But I'd guess at 40% expo, if you got her in OK, you have them the right way.

Wheels Down!
Dave

**Dual rates are usually on different switches for elevator and aileron. Sometimes you only want one to change its sensitivity, and not the other.

There are a few similarities, but not many!

I was reminded of this a couple of weeks ago when a flying buddy showed up with an old Dirty Birdy that was well built and is still in excellent condition, powered by one of the old long-stroke .60's and weighing at least 9 lbs and very likely somewhat over that.

The Dirty Birdy wing has a very thin airfoil (relative to today's aerobats and pattern ships) and the model really needs speed to fly, and must - and does! - carry a lot of speed into vertical segments. It must also be landed at a pretty hot pace compared to modern designs with comparatively light wing loadings.

Because of its much thicker wing and tail feather airfoils, the Phoenix Extra won't carry a lot of speed into vertical maneuvers and therefore needs more engine thrust to power through them. Also, because of the Extra's small fuse side area, it also needs a lot of power to hold a knife edge, and even then it takes a LOT of rudder deflection.

That'll get it done.

Might be able to keep it all under the cowl with a Pitts muffler. Probably can still get a compatible Slimline muffler since this engine is a clone of the OS 1.08.

But, seriously, you don't want any more engine than this. Goldilocks Principle at work.

Congrats on the successful maiden.

Looked like you were fighting the aileron trim most of the flight. It appeared to need a few clicks of left trim. Looked like the elevator was a bit of a struggle as well.

First job on a maiden is to get the plane flying straight and level hands-off (or, more accurately, sticks neutral) with aileron and elevator trim, and then pull a long vertical and check the rudder trim.

The engine seemed to be putting out good smoke, which is what you want on a new 4-stroker. Can't comment on the low end, but it takes a while to 'sneak up' on a low idle setting on a 4-stroke. Good choice of fuel.

The clanking might've been your wheels (mains or tail).

Good explanation, min2... You've got a lot more patience than I do!

Hey, just saw your sig "Dave"!

Guess I should've asked before, but it's nice to have a first name to work with. The nicknames can get a bit unweildy and impersonal. Well maybe some guys like it that way.

I had a flying buddy of mine look at my plane. he said everything looks good. I took up the extra and the clanking sound immediately echoed the flying field. he said it could be running too rich. brought her back down. placed her on the bench. we ran up the engine and we can hear the clanking sound. the rubber dubro exhaust deflector was vibrating around crazy but that wasn't it. the top of the cowl is secured but I don't have screws securing the bottom - the cowl vibrated but wasn't making the clanking sound. The cowl was making a lot of the high pitch vibrations thou. My buddy first tached the engine. at full throttle I was getting 9200RPM. he said the engine is capable of going faster - that I should get it closer to peak - maybe the engine is just running too rich. we got it up to 11000 and backed it up to 10500. stopped the engine and checked where the needle ended. I was a little frightened - the high needle ended at around quarter turn open from closed. I flew the plane again at the leaner setting but still heard clanking. Not as much - but was still there.

cmoulder, I haven't checked the wheels or the landing gear assembly. I'll do that now. what would i look for? right now, nothing obvious.

If the wheels are loose on the axles they can make a lot of noise. Look for slack space between the wheel hubs and the axles, and also side-to-side between the wheel collars. Loose cowls can make a lot of noise as you have found.

A loose/rattling canopy can also make an enormous amount of noise. I had an issue with that this past season with my Focus II pattern ship and I thought it was a problem with the exhaust, such was the noise!

Engine clanking is hard to tell without actually hearing it. More complicated with a 4-stroke because there are more moving parts... gear driven cam, valve lifting rods, rockers... and the usual bad bearings and slack con rod, but those are more obvious because they can be felt by moving the crankshaft by hand. Also loose mufflers/headers for which 4-strokes are reknowned. Maybe the muffler is hitting against the cowl or the fuse, or rattling throttle linkage.

Best advice is to get the best engine guy at your field to take a look at it, and find and secure anything that is the least bit loose on the model.

Most 4 strokes come from the factory with the low end sdjustment horribly rich. If you could close the needle that far, I suspect that you need to lean the low end. I would bring the needle valve back to 2 turns open and lean the low end 1/2 turn. All 4 strokes vibrate much more than 2 strokes, but when their low end is too rich, they really vibrate. If you go too far on leaning the low end, the engine will stammer when you open the throttle fast; maybe even quit. Too rich though makes a 4 stroke run awful and vibrate badly through the whole RPM range.

This weekend I'll pull the engine out and stick it back on the bench. I will also put in the canopy screws and see if that will solve the problem - actually, I'll try running the engine again on the plane with the canopy off. Oh, I wonder if it is the fuel plug knocking on the fuel tank or canopy. I moved the tank towards CG and have the fueling line strapped under the velcro thats holding the tank down. I'll test it this weekend.

I have the Phoenix Extra 330 .61-.91
Set up on 6000mah-6s 22.2v with a Hacker C50-16XL and 3.38:1 reduction.
It will Hover at  a Lil over 1/2 throttle with a 18 X 10 APC prop.

I Just purchased a DLE-20 and plan to put it into the EXTRA as soon as it arrives.I
will drop a 1/2-Lb off the current 3,830g however
The 700sq inch wing in it handles the 8.42-Lb quite nicelyBUT
i Did sheet the front 1/3 and cap the ribs; still
not bad for a $140 and i like the red & white monokote better
AND it lands Much easier,with 15% flap and the rudder coupled in.

Someone on post # 16  indicated that the wing had 831 sq" aria
My math indicates only 700 sq"
each wing pannel is 28" long
Tip =    8.625
Root = 16.375"

This will be my first gas airplane; my gas- XL Helli is Real sensitive
to temp. Wish i new what the operating temp of the DLE-20 was,to
ensure i don't over heat it.

Bille<br type="_moz"/>

I seem to recall reading in the Tower website tech notes a wing area figure of 681 sq in,

With the renewed discussion of this model I was inspired to get going again on my refurbishment project and am almost finished with the wings. Removing all those pinned hinges was a royal PITA. I made the ailerons a bit shorter and used the ends of the ailerons to make some proper Extra-type wing roots because the look of the full-length planks always annoyed me. Using the OS .91 with a Perry pump and tank on CG.

The .91 2-stroke, that is....

ALL I FOUND at Tower was this:<pre>Specs:Span 63.8"weight 7.5-7.95lbLength 50.39"specs such as wing aera and wing loading are not provided by the manufacturerI'm quite certin that post #16 at (831 sq" of aeria) was incorrect.</pre>http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4941634

I read that some people have a problem with the airplane snap-rolling at odd times.
because of the high wing loadind as an electric(3830g) i added some 10mil milar wedges
at the wing tip.They start at the spar and go to the TE of the ailerons.The front is even with the spar caps
the rear is centered on the control surface and is 2" total,(1" on both sides of aelirons).
Their put on with straping tape,(two small slits in milar just in ft of aileron ).
It will come out of a tumble like it's on railes, flies slower and the ailerons are More efective.
From a galloping poney,You can't see them !
Bille

I have NO idea why
they won't let me Edit my last post !!!!!

I tried ((3)) times and got the same result.
Bille

I think I know what you're describing, but some photos would be nice. Sounds like SFG's, side force generators.

I've flown this model at a weight of 7 lb 0.7 oz and did not see any undue snappiness, although of one pulls the elevator hard enough any model can be made to tip stall. But lighter is nearly always better. I maidened a buddy's kit-built GP Extra that was very heavy - was extremely touchy and snappy, and was lucky to get it back down in one piece. Tapered wings do not like high wing loading.

I'd also like to see your covering scheme. I'm using the Aeroworks silver/red/black as a guide, replacing the black with midnight blue.

quote]ORIGINAL: cmoulder
...Extra that was very heavy - was extremely touchy and snappy, and was lucky to get it back down in one piece. Tapered wings do not like high wing loading.

I'd also like to see your covering scheme..
[/quote]
YEA.. I generally add these to ALL my models,((Before)) i test fly them.
They REALLY dampen out the bad tendencies.
On gliders they will slow it down a touch and the L/D gets worst; but
power models only get mowe stable.

The new cowl will get painted after the DLE-20 get's installed.

OHAND Don't," Hit " on the Blond pilot, She's a prude !!

Bille

I have just finished the Phoenix Extra 330 .61-.91

Cool!

It's nice to have a model that doesn't look like everyone else's. Early on, I added some yellow starburst markings to the scheme and it did indeed look a lot better and different.

The total refurb and recovering is a PITA but I think it will be well worth it. I flew the crap out of this plane for a couple of years and it somehow survived some bad stuff that it shouldn't have - like hitting a wind sock pole at the root of a wing, and doing a double cartwheel on take off when a freak burst of wind caught it from the side, and a blind deadstick landing over the crest of a hill. Several times I thought it was a goner, so it's a bit of a miracle that it is worth doing the work at all.

Very interested to see how the DL20 works out for you. I don't think this airframe is sturdy enough for a gasser, but I've been wrong before.

Good job stuffing most of that motor under the cowl.

Sounds a bit snobby perhaps, but I can't fly a plane without a cowl... well, not one of mine anyway. Real planes have cowls, and models just don't look right flying around with the engine just hanging out there. Unless they're meant to be, like a Stearman with a Moki, for instance.

IMHO, of course.

I'm TOTALLY with you on that one !! On the Cowl part..
Quite certin the fraim will handel the engine however:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=10143689


According to the guys over on F** giants,((search DLE-20)), the engine should fit under the cowl

Perhaps i may need to cut a hole inthe fire-wall for the carb-BUT-
acording to these guys, That does something to equalize the preassure
and it ruen's even better. The hole is already there because the Hacker
and gear-box was Too long,so a bit of triming is all it will neeed,(squair
in a round hole).

Worst comes to worst...
I am a Really good mold maker and if i go that rout, i Won't be stopping
on just the cowl. I will mold the entire plane.I could do a scale looking
frame in carbon using the lost wax method. and the wing could use another
100sq/" for another electris version, (i liked the Hacker,was just too heavy).

I lost Both legs below the knee and the VA just authorized me for another "set"
of prosthetics.
I Turned them down and requested that they only maintain the parts on the curent ones
instead. That's nearly $30K i turned down. WHY would i do that?
because i'm about a month away from from having my own design . I keep breaking
the ones they give me while Kite-boarding.
Bille

My Pheonix Extra 330S 60-90 build


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEYfhKnVts