We had an almost wind-free day here in south Texas yesterday, and I took my new Saratoga out for her maiden flight. I got to the field which is about 20 miles away, only to discover that I had left the canopy at home. I bolted the wing down without the canopy and flew it anyway? After starting it up (Saito 82), and letting it warm up for a bit, we sat it on the ground, (grass), and it wants to nose over as soon as you start giving it some throttle! Grass is short, but it seems the landing gear is maybe too close to the CG on this plane. Well, we started it again, and gave it a little push and this time, I kept it rolling, by giving it a little more throttle.
I got it up in the air and all it wanted to nose dive. To get it to fly almost level, the elevator trim on my DX6i is all the way back. I have a call in to Horizon to see what they can suggest. After landing the plane, you can see the elevator leading edge is a quarter of an inch lower that the stationary part of the horizontal stabliizer. Does anyone else have one of these, that can tell me if this is normal?

I flew this plane for my partner who was reviewing it for RCU Magazine and it's one of the most enjoyable planes I have ever flown.

Here's the review

I would say that your lack of canopy was more than likely the culprit. I had a canopy blow off in flight a few times (on other aircraft) and it was all I could do to get the plane down safely (And sometimes I wasn't successful)

Trickpony,

I reviewed the Saratoga for RCUniverse, you can check out the review if you like.

I had a little up elevator trim in mine, but nowhere near 1/4".


Gabarber

Thanks for your responses. I looked at many videos and read several reviews about this plane also, before I decided I wanted one. I just have never had an airplane that needed this much trim before. I also am wondering if I should try flying it one more time WITH the little canopy, before I do the other suggestions, like putting some down thrust in the engine. Thanks again!

Chris

Absolutely!

DO NOT judge its performance based on one flight with no canopy!

Yes sir!!

I appreciate your help!!

Chris

I know the windshield does not seem like much, but the tall former at the rear of the wing is really quite large and acts like an air brake. If you notice, that center section does lift up the rear of the 'cockpit' a great deal.

I really like flying the Saratoga- It is a fantastic flying airplane, both on land, and on the water with the floats attached. The neat thing about this plane is that it really doesn't notice that the floats are there, and retains most of it's aerobatic performance.

nose-heavy

It did fly much better today, even though it was foggy. Couldn't get much altitude, making sure I didn't lose it in the fog, but it'll be a whole lot more fun on the next clear day we have. It's still got more up elevator than anything else I have, but that's ok. Flew my Toledo Special for the first time today also. Very pretty planes in the air, both of them!

Last weekend was beautiful here and I flew my Saratoga four or five times. It is as stable as a rock! It's really a fun plane to fly, just as you've already read. I still have some "Up Elevator" in it to keep it flying level, even with the cockpit and pilot in place.

I also have a Toledo Special. That plane flies level with the horizontal stabilizer totally flat, NO UP elevator. I borrowed a friend's Robart Incidence meter. I set the Toledo so that the when attached to the wing, the meter was at the zero mark. Then I checked the stabilizer, and it was at zero also. After seeing this, I did the same check on the Saratoga. I found that the stabilizer was not at zero. I used part of a popcicle stick between the fuselage and the horizontal stabilizer, spacing the rear upwards. I rechecked afterwards with the incidence meter, and now when the wing is at zero, so is the stabizer. I am betting that when that plane flies again, I won't have any "UP elevator" in it to keep it flying level. I'll keep ya'll posted.

It'll be interesting to see the outcome of your modification- keep us posted!

Hey trickpony, read your story with interest. I maidened my saratoga about a week ago and was flying from grass.  It was pretty well clipped, not perfect but should have been fine. The first little burst of throttle saw it nose straight over. Hmm I thought.  I found a level almost grassless patch as a runway and sent her up. After a little trimming she flew quite well. The Evo 46 I have in it had heaps of power for the plane and as in gabarbers video I put it through its paces.<div>Landing was not as gentle as his was but okay, BUT, nosed over for 2 out of three landings and stalled the motor each time. I was surprised how much weight the fuel added to the front of the plane. Anyway, it balances as per the book and better than a lot of planes Ive built. </div><div>I figured it shoulden't be doing this and thought I might check out the forums to see if Im alone.</div><div>
</div><div>Anyway, I have added 10 grams of weight to the tail and will see if that helps. I noticed when Gabarber came if for a landing the tail of his plane sat pretty low. Maybe his plane is a little tail heavy ???</div>

I put a small wedge under the trailing edge of the landing gear, where it attaches to the fuselage, to move the wheels a little more ahead of the CG. That helps some. When I start to taxi out to the runway, I have the elevator on hi-rate to keep it from nosing over. I keep the elevator up until the plane is rolling good, then let off so that it doesn't try to go straight up. The plane flies great. I did a little spacing mod on the horizontal stab also,but haven't flown it since. I hope to try it out this coming Saturday! I'll let you know if the stab mod will allow the plane to fly without a lot of "up elevator".
Have a Happy New Year!!

PS- I'm running a Saito 82, and I had to put an ounce or so of weight on the tail~~it lands beautifully though.

Thanks for the feedback. I have just been watching some videos on you tube and some of the Saratogas seem to be getting around on grass okay, whithout up elevator. Hopefully a little weight in the tail will do the trick and then i might try your idea of packing under the rear of the landing gear.<div>
</div><div>I will be interested in your feedback.</div><div>
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To be honest with you, my plane balanced a little on the nose-heavy side, but it was within reason, so I left it.

And I'm the one who flew the plane for gabarber and I had no nose-over issues

Mine is still a tiny bit nose heavy, but flies well. My popsicle stick wedge under the rear of the horizontal stabilizer got rid of the "up elevator" to make it fly level. H9 should build that Saratoga in an 80" version and people would buy it. I know I'd buy it and several of the people I fly with would too!

Mine is too, I took it out this morning after adding a little weight to the tail.  Quite short grass, gave it a little burp and straight over. Im lucky enough to fly beside a turf farm and there's a nice strip where the grass has been scimmed. Took off and really gave it some. The plane flew so well that all was forgiven, until I came in to land and clipped a tree. Front end smashed to bits.<div>
</div><div>I ordered another one as soon as I got home, this plane is real nice for sport flying and looks good, colours stand out in the air as well..  Wing installation is a real nice setup after transport.</div><div>
</div><div>I definitely agree with you on the 80 inch version, it would really give the plane prescense in the air and on the ground. Repositioning the landing gear to fix the nose overs too would be the right thing to do. Not everyone has a tarmac to fly from.</div>

This nose over stuff don't sound good. I'm building a Saratoga now and I would expect H9 designers to consider that kind of thing.
The LG has a slight slant to it but I don't have tail feathers on yet to check on stab level. How much thickness did you put on trailing edge of LG?

Seems if the CG is even close it shouldn't want to nose over.

On my Arrow RTF I got in the habit of up elevator to keep weight off the front tri-cycle gear as it would tip on our rough field, that worked out great so I don't see up elevator while taxi-ing a problem.

Putting a OS 55 in it.

Hi Scott, the nose over thing is pretty bad, it caught me on initial take off and when landing.  Two out of three landings nosed over near the end. You can balance the plane real nice but when you add fuel just put your hand lightly on the front end and you will see the tail rise up real easy. I was progressively adding more weight to the tail to combat this before the accident.<div>
</div><div>And yes you are right, Hangar 9 should have sorted this out. Its one of those things where some guys say it doesn't happen to them but its happening on your plane and the setup is the same !! I know Im not alone with this and its a ***** of a problem.</div><div>
</div><div>Im running an evolution 46 in mine which I imagine will be a lighter motor than yours so I would be real interested to see if you have the same problem. I test mine now with a very light burst of throttle on grass to see if it tips or rolls forward. So far its tipped and stalled the motor. Other than that its a great plane. </div>

I think the problem IS that the landing gear is so close to the CG. I put a popsicle stick under the rear of my landing gear, retightened the bolts and maybe moved the front axles forward 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. We fly on the grass, so when I taxi out, I've got full up elevator on high rate, until I get the plane rolling, to keep the tail down. Once I land, as soon as possible, up elevator. I'm thinking the landing gear should have been farther forward, or the tail of the plane needed to be a few inches longer. Mine has a Saito 82, and yes I had to put maybe an ounce of tail weight on it to make it CG. Sure flies as solid as a rock though!!!

I reckon your right trickypony, the landing gear needs to be further up under the fuel tank to support the weight on that end. <div>
</div><div>Hangar 9 needs a kick in the arse over that one. When you make something good, go all the way.</div>

Well, I don't know what the problem is. I flew this plane several times including the maiden flight and I never had a nose-over issue - and yes, I fly from grass (Not even good grass)

You installed the Saito 82 too so you had the weight. Guys if it's close to wanting to nose over I'm gonna start out with just a half tank of fuel. That alone will save 4 to 6 ounces (I don't know the tank volume, likely 11 ounces).

I'm also gonna run the smallest diameter prop that is practical.

I'm wondering if you guys installed a fuel valve? This is my first cowl plane. Looks good but you have to remove spinner and prop to take the cowl off........was looking at photos in the review and it looks like the light green colored fuel line is looped up enough to pull it from throttle valve and fuel the tank? I bought the black plastic dubro fuel valve: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXWDG9&P=ML
but I want to keep it simple as possible.
Thanks