Ok I am venting now about how ARTFmodels are a rip off.
Some of you might have seen my thread about the trouble I had with a Black Horse AT6 Texan. The first one I had an issue with the C of G and the second one the wing fell off on its second flight.
All in all I had laid out £400 for these 2 planes and ended up with nothing to show for it.
Any way, I wrote a letter to Ripmax the importers of Black Horse models with photos showing the damage and the fact that the model failed through lack of glue on important fittings. ie the wings.
Ripmax agreed and ended up giving me back the £200 I paid for the second model in theform of a credit not at the model shop I bought it from. Very kind of them I thought. I cant fault Ripmax at all in this.
Any wayI told the model shop that I did not want a Black Horse model again after what I had been through. I noticed that they had a Graupner P47 Thunderbolton their web site and they had one in stock.
Now the Black Horse Thunderbolt is priced at £152.99. The Graupner Thunderbolt is priced at £223.99. A whole £71 dearer. You would think that the more expensive modle was going to be a better kit.
DONT BE FOOLED.
When I got it home and opened the box I noticed that there were lots of bits that are identical to Black Horse parts. (engine mount, fuel tank, Wing bolts and fixings, etc) I thought strange.
On Sunday at the club field, one of the guys had a Black Horse Thunderbolt. On close inspection and a chat it turns out the the Black Horse and the Graupner P47 Thunderbolt are one and the same model.
The Black horse is in a Black Horse box and the Graupner model is in a Graupner box. That is the only difference. Nothing else at all.
This is a warning that I had never concidered. These ARTF Models are coming out of the same factory and are built by the same people and then sold to different companies and labeled as being different.
I phoned the model shop and pointed this out and got some of my money back, and then was told that of course I wouldn't normally have noticed this, it was just that I had had the problem with the Texan that I did.
We are being RIPPED OFF.
Watch out.
Just because it is labeled one thing it doesn't mean you are getting what you think you are.

Ok Thats me done.



Ray.

Hmmm....

If models were built to the same standards we apply to a kit build, a lowly $140.00 ARF would cost thousands.

No thanks, I'll just know this, and add a bit of work and care myself, and save a bundle in the process.

Did you CHECK and reinforce your glue joints before flying?


I almost always wick thin CA into the wing joints, often letting it drip down into areas I do not have access to, just to be safe.

I regularly re-inforce glue joints in exposed areas with slightly thinned epoxy.

I also check the C.G. and establish it myself, never going by what a manual may say.


I recently picked up the Black Horse .60 STA Ryan, and I was quite impressed with it. A gorgeous plane.

After a bit of going over, and fixing a few minor things, I have a great flying plane. I would highly recommend it.
But to a novice I would say that these things are not "toasters"... and that you MUST learn how to build, fix, and re-inforce things yourself to suceed in RC.

I've seen newbies coming in here yelling about incompatible connectors, etc. simply due to not being used to the "do-it-yourself" nature of this hobby.


Are ARF models a "rip-off"... no way...

Build your own from scratch, then calculate the time, materials and expenses involved.

As many old KIT builders often say here, today's ARFs are a bargain, and much better than what they could hope for, given the price.

Maybe I did not make that quite clear. When I say a rip off I mean that you dont have to pay top money to get a good model. If you are in the market for an ARTF plane then look at them closely. They may be in different boxes and priced different because one is from another company but they might and I only say might be the same model just labeled different.
I have been a kit builder for many years and I agree, I cant get them to look as good but when I do build one at least I know where the glue is and how much was used.
My 2 favorite models that I fly are both built from proper kits (boxes of wood) and I am in the process of building a new one. All of them are SIG kits. Love them.

Ray.

I agree, Ray  - even most of the brand name ARTF's have the same issues as the "no name" products. I have found more issues with glue and covering on ARTF's than I can count.

I understand that it is good practise to reinforce high stress areas, such as wing roots, firewalls, landing gear blocks, etc, but it should not be nessesary!

If a company is knowingly producing something that needs to be rebuilt in order to operate safely, it should correct the problem. If a wing comes of in flight, and you are told that "it was your job to add more glue", while neither the manual nor manufactor says so, I would be furious. Not only have I been lied to by the manufacturer (no need to do such things), but I have lost several hundred dollars because of their incompetance.

Low costs are no excuse for dangerous models.

I think a lot of people have the impression that there is a different factory for each ARF brand. I do not think that is true. I think a handful of companies make nearly all of the ARFs. Factory A may build Great Planes Escapades one week and BH/Graupner P-47s the next. I also believe they are built to a price point. A higher price point (at the factory) might buy better materials and/or better quality control.

Most of the "stuff" that came in the box with my SIG Four Star 60 ARF (bought a few years ago) was in a bag labeled "World Models" so I guess the ARF factory buys it in quantity and boxes it up with whatever brand ARF they are building that day.

Carrell

Sorry I misunderstood.

And you are correct... the "you get what you pay for" axiom often doesn't hold true.

I've seen some fairly cheap ARF's that were far better built than fairly expensive ones and vice versa.

Often the same factory or "brand" can also run the gamut... one plane being extremely well designed and put together ( but alas maybe lacking elswhere, such as hardware ), and another that is utter doo-doo. I've also purchased well built planes with somewhat abysmal covering, and well covered planes with poor design.

So your point is 1. That ARF might have become like electrical goods all come from the "canndy factory " differant labels. Its not till you get to the high end stuff like Miele etc that you know it's Origin

2. That a ARF needs work to tweak it and maybe some research for things like power supply or cg or some one else's experiance with the same model

Cheers Brian

Sorry for your loss, some of the guys have Black Horse models, the Gilmore Loin man that is a nice plane if I didn't have other interests right now that one would be in my sights.............maybe I can squeze it in between the Extra and the Ulitmate, that means I need a new DLe55, servo's, opti kill,Batt, switches, leads, spiiners, props, muiflers, servo arms.....................and a radial for up the front of the Gilmore

Now Fathers day coming, then Christmas , then birthday...............ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhh not enough excusses to get all this stuff just go and buy. Yea that will work the misses wont notice [&:] [&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:]


I NEED HELP

One thing I have noticed is the complaints as per manufacturer.

If the pilot buys a name brand model, with several flaws, and pays 500 dollars, he claims it is great quality, with "minor niggles".
If the pilot buys a no name model, with several similar flaws, and pays 300 dollars, he claims it is lousy quality, full of problems, and flys awful.

I doesn't matter how good the no-name product is, it is always garbage in the eyes of some people.

This threw me for a minute because I could have sworn that we celebrated Fathers Day this year already - so I looked at an online calendar thing and saw that Fathers Day is celebrated in September in New Zealand and Australia. Learned something new

Basman,

Kit boxes are easier to smuggle into the house than huge ARTF boxes.

Not that uncommon in many instances. I had a sailboat with a Universal diesel engine. On close examination I found the engine block said "KUBOTA" on the side. I could buy the same filters and spares at a tractor store that the chandlery wanted 2X to 7X more for! Same parts, sometimes different item numbers, just painted gray instead of orange.

Glowplugs from Universal #299685 - $71.39 the identical glowplug from Kubota #15261-65510 - $9.00.

Universal fresh water pump 300203 - $307.56 vs. Kubota 15552-73030 - $87.10.

Universal thermostat 301358 - $60.28 vs. Kubota 15531-73010 - $24.54.


You're paying for the name (lofted by expensive advertising), the warranty which may be identical, and the big, big mark-up. Graupner will sell for what it thinks it can get away with; not based on item worth.

Good point but how long are the shoping lists for kits ??????????????????and the bank balance still reduces

well Ray has discovered something I have known for a few months.

It would appear that many of the ARF's are made in the East and badged with the big names.

I've seen the Black Horse ARF's, Graupner, H-9, Kyosho etc and many or them are so similar to others of similar type that you can only conclude they are the same airframe.
Hence I don;t bother buying top name ARF's. I'll stick to Black Horse, Seagull, Phoenix. Green Model China, CMP and Pilot RC.

In fact if you examine the Pilot RC, and a few other large scale aerobatics airframes inthe 30cc to 100cc class the resemblance in airframe member shape, method of manufacture, glue used and glue positioning tells me that these are all made in one factory.

At least some of the higher end companiestry to hide this by giving you an original colour scheme. Others don't bother.

e.g. look at the 30cc and 50cc Sbach ARF's...
strange that all the manufactures only offer them in two colour schemes which are identical across the brands..

Good points above been flying a 46 decathlon with 82 for two years now and pull it anyway i like just watch the standard struts every now and then.Plus the tail braces i had to add

So, is it simply not worth it to put out twice as much money for a brand name product? Would it be susceptable to the the same issues as the "knock-off"?

Many ( but not always ) times that is very true.

One thing I've noted is that as the plane SIZE increases the build quality and included hardware quality also tends to increase, non-proportional to the price of the plane.
This holds true for both name brand and the knockoffs.

Of course there are always exceptions, and vendors that skew things...

e.g. my Composite-Arf's are very well built planes with decent manuals, but a novice would be thrown by the amount of hardware they must provide to finish the plane, let alone the amount of "finishing" they must be involved in. Of course by the time you are flying composites, you better NOT be dealing with crashes!

There is another possibility not yet mentioned. Some companies sell their Quality Control "culls" to clearing houses. A U.S. company with a distinct product is not likely to do that, as a bad XYZ product that is recognizable reflects badly on XYZ Co . regardless of where it was purchased. But, if you produce something made for overseas or relabel markets you might sell firsts to ABC Company, seconds to BCD Co. and thirds to CDE Co. In some cases ABC Co. would insist (contractually) that this is not allowed to protect their label/offerings.

Naturally, the CDE Co. items would be cheaper, but there is also probably something not totally right about them. Warped, overweight, covering mishaps, etc.

I have NO idea if this is done in the R/C industry. But, it is a possibility.

Another is volume discounts. If A Company buys a whole ship container of 2,000 ARFs from a Chinese manufacturer while B Company only buys 200 that must be factored, then B Co. is likely paying a lot more per ARF.

Is all of this generally true for airframes, or are engines, electronics, radios, etc, subject to price increases for the brand-name?

I would assume that this is all the more so for airframes, but it may also apply to many other items.

Remember that plane boxes are quite large and fragile, so shipping these is a big issue.

It behooves the vendor to ship out only large lots, that can be split at the desitination.

I know that some of the Chinese factories will receive an order for a specific lot of planes, tool up for them, and once the order is filled, they retool for other items until they receive another order large enough to warrant retooling again.

That is why parts can be hard to find at times, and when you DO NOT seem to need parts, they are plentiful for a particular plane.

I always do appreciate when someone has a bad exsperience with an ARF lets us know, That way we can research it futher and make a choice based on what we find out, But it is nice to have the first eye oppener that there just might be a problem! Thanks for the tread, It does not fall on deaf ears! My RC dollar has to go as far as it can, So I do read about the product from users before I invest in the RC product and not end up with RC useless junk!




My girlfriend told me if I gave up RC airplanes I would have more time for other things, WHAT OTHER THINGS?

You always pay for what you get but you don't necessarily get what you pay for.

I am glad I posted this thread. It has certainly been an eye opener. Interesting comments from you all. I am on the committee of my club and we just had a meeting here at my house. I think this subject is going to rumble on a while now the rest of the committee has heard of what has happened, first of all to my first 2 Black Horse Texans and then this farse of the same model being sold as different models by 2 different manufacturers.
It will be from now on a mission of mine to check check and check again what I am buying in the future.
As I said before.. We are being ripped off with out questioning it. Its only when it becomes clear that this is happening that we sit back and think twice about it.
I hate being taken for a ride. I am sure you all feel the same.

Happy flying. The weekend is nearly here.

Ray.

pennbrit,It is certainly a good exercise to first check the arf you want to buy.I always check the contents of the box, thorough inspection. I then check which other manufacturers offer a similar arf in a similar size. i'll inspect as many as I can. That way i know that some arf's are indeed the same design marketed under different brands. I simply choose the box with the arf thats been assembled the best.This rules out impulsive buying but at least what I have and how it compares to other arf's.Happy hunting

Pennbrit; If you had heard or followed the story on Sig Products and the problems they are having, it comes down to the same thing. Sig ordered a lot of ARF's from a Far East Company and when they arrived at the docks they could only pay for part of the order. So as the story goes, the Far East Co. sold the rest to NitroPlanes. Evidently for what they could get for them, because the ARF from Sig would cost $134.00 dollars and the same ARF minus the Sig name from NitroPlanes was $84.00 dollars. I know for I bought one!

I have 2 SIG planes but both of them were kits and I am building another one as well. I have the 4 star 60 with a saito 100 in it, fantastic plane. And I built a Wonder with a ASP 21 in it. Goes like a bat out of hell. I have started on the Hog Bipe. I did see for a short while that you could get the 4 star as an ARTF but not seen one in a while. They all seem to kits only. So what you have said makes sence now.