RE: BME Edge?
 

Hey rgreen24...

I guess noone has answered because they don't have direct experience with the Moki 2.1

The best judge will be you.... how much does your DV weigh... expect the Edge to weigh about 1-1.5 lbs less without going out of your way to lighten it...

RE: BME Edge?
 

Hey Maudib, thank you for the reply. I guess I did not look at it that way.

Thanks,

By the way MY DV was a pig. But the Harriers were rock solid.. without spoilerons

RE: BME Edge?
 

Seems the plane wasn't a pig... the engine was a dog... ;)

The Vision would provide you with an airframe to more easily balance with the Moki... While I don't know the weight of the Moki 2.1... The DA with muffler, ignition & battery is somewhere around 4+ lbs... You might even save a little more than 1.5 lbs...

I went through as much lightening as I could and am projecting 15-15.5 lbs all up... CF gear, tailwheel, spinner, lions... Seems it might be possible to get it at 14 or maybe just under??? with the Moki... but only if you go through all the motions...

RE: BME Edge?
 

I don't know where you heard that but its not accurate. The CH ignition is just a good as the DA. Put your throttle servo where you want or need it, and more than likely you will not have a problem. If you do its usually not a problem moving a servo around. I always install my radio gear where I want it to go, and sometimes that puts engine and radio components right next to each other. And I have never had any problems. How you install your gear is more important than where. Good luck!

RE: BME Edge?
 

I was looking at the CH horns... they don't look like enough for 3D throws... they are nice though. I used the Rocket city horns and mine are nearly 1.5 tall to get the right displacement (45%).. I don't see the hyde horns getting anywhere close to that. The pics above show about 30% max..


As far as locating the equipment.. mine is all jammed into the nose on the firewall. The ignition, Li-Ion battery and regulator are all touching, the RX battery pack is 4" away from the Ign "bundle" and the throttle servo is mounted on the firewall 1" from the carb. The RX (PCMR770 JR) is less than 6" from all the rest of the stuff.

I went to a smaller (18oz) tank, elevated the tank and moved the Pull-Pull setup under it, so now that pull pull is as far forward as it can get and the tank is still nearly on CG.

I have perfect range and no issues in flight. My CG is 5.00 inches and my weight is 16 pounds 5 oz WET.

DP

RE: BME Edge?
 

mmm. I hope that the CH horns are going to work, as that what I had planned on using. Wait and see approach I guess.

For all you DA50 users out there, want to post up a pic of your cowl cutout setup for the head and muffler? I want an idea of how much I am going to have to carve away.

Progress - I carved off the backplate of the canopy area so I can have better access to the area under the turtledeck. Now I can reach in there and tidy up the cables and stuff. Firewall is ready to epoxy in, and brace, and block, and pin, etc. Used a laser level on a tripod to shoot the centreline. Very accurate. Ordered new standoffs, as I want this bad boy to be as far forward as possible. My new standoffs are 3 5/8" long, to get the 7" to the front of the cowl plus the 1/8" gap for spinner.

Spar

RE: BME Edge?
 

David,

Maybe this can help.

Moki 2.1

I have one waiting for an airplane complete with Pitts Muffler, Tru Turn 3.5 inch spinner,
non metal engine mount and 20-10 Dynathrust Prop

= 4 lbs 2 1/4 ounces

Just engine no hardware 2 lb 14 oz

Took off the prop it weighed 5 1/4 oz

Spinner 4 1/2 oz

Possible Moki Combo with different prop/spinner might go right at 4 pound seven.

I mention all of this as I am curious. Have been watching threads to decide if I want the BME Edge, Wh Edge, Extreme Flight Yak, or TOC Yak all running 85-87 inch wings.

In other threads folks talk of the Moki turning a 22-10 at 7000 to 7600 rpm depending on prop manufacturer.

Any comments on which way to go without having to dump my Moki and spend 500 extra bucks on a gasser?

RE: BME Edge?
 

If your Moki 2.1 will turn a 22x10 at 7000+ rpm you could go with any of them, although I would put the Wild Hare last on the list simply because it tends to be heavier, and the BME next because it is hard to balance with a light engine.

RE: BME Edge?
 

Hi guys,

I'd thought I chime in here with some praise - - to BME! I had a wheel pant that was damaged in shipment... kinda got squished, and Max promptly replied to my email and will be sending one (or a full set) out as soon as replacement parts arrive. Replacement items such as pants, canopies, and cowls will be available soon for those that have slight accidents. From what Max said, they will be available for all of the BME Aircraft lineup.

Spar

Oh, and here is a pic of my soon-to-be-finished cockpit. :D I know some of the guages are not 100% correct, but hey. The photoshop file is pretty big with all the layers at 37mb, but I can probably make .jpg's for those that want one.

RE: BME Edge?
 

Ummmm... to get MORE throw you need SHORTER horns and longer servos arms.

Still, you don't want to get too short on your horns or you risk flutter due to improper geometry.

The CHP Horn is 21 mm (a little over 13/16") from the base of the horn to the center of the ball bearing... I wouldn't want to go any lower than that...

In the pic it also looks like the servo isn't fully deflected...

RE: BME Edge?
 

Sorry I had a typo. I stand corrected, the Moki 2.1 thread in Tachometer Readings talked of a 20X10 (not 22-10) in the 7-7500 rpm range. Just didnt proof read my math [X(]

They talk of the Moki Ultra 20/10 prop 7660 rpm on no nitro fuel.

Here is a quote from Scale Speed in that same thread" Hi Guys:
I have two Moki's and the 2.1 is definitely stronger. I am running a Moki 20-8 prop in a 1/3rd scale Pitts @ 15-1/2 lbs. and it turns 8500 on the ground using Byron 5% with 18% oil. I have unlimited vertical and can pull up out of a hover with easy. More than enough power for this airframe. My 1.8 is in a Hanger 9 Cap and what a combination. Knife-edge loops aren't a problem with a Moki 18-8 prop. Scale Speed"

Now the question reapplied for an 85-87 inch platform that might easily balance and to what 3D capacity might it have. Otherwise, I might wait a few more months to sell the moki and come up with extra cash for gasser.

RE: BME Edge?
 

DP...I hope you weren't referring to my bad pics. I just hooked them up to get a quick pic. Here's a better pic showing full deflection using the CH horns.

RE: BME Edge?
 

That's much better... looks about 45 degrees to me... :)

RE: BME Edge?
 

Okay, if you can keep the weight to 15-1/2 lbs and if the Moki can turn a 20-8 at 8500 rpm you'll have a great setup. You may even benefit with a 22x8 and lower rpm, as long as it stays over 7000, but I don't know how the Moki will react to the larger load. I would say with this setup you'll be able to do anything in the book.

Since you already have the Moki, why don't you try and get your own rpm data, say with a 20x8 and 22x8 Menz or MSC or Mejzlik prop? Real numbers with your engine and prop combo will eliminate some of the unknown.

RE: BME Edge?
 

Good pics! I am glad to see the CH horns worked out... I was little worried...

Maudib - No doubt about needing shorter arms for longer throws.. for whatever reason the rocket city horns definitely need to be taller to achieve the 45* displacement... It would be easy for me to convert to the CH horns and I still might. That should be worth another ounce in the tail... !


Sparhawk - you will definitely be doing some surgery on that cowl. Don't worry though - it is heavy so cutting it away saves weight. I cut almost the entire bottom out of mine, and then mounted 2 small wood blocks with screws to support it from flapping on the bottom. This is good for the DA air supply, good for weight, and you don't even really see it. You want a lot more air coming out than going in..

I will try to take a picture tonight and post it here.

DP

RE: BME Edge?
 

I checked with the protractor --- throw is about 52* !!!!

ed42d-RCU - what are the lengths on the servo horns and who makes them?

Spar

RE: BME Edge?
 

They look like the 1.25" SWB horns... http://www.swbmfg.com

RE: BME Edge?
 

yup...1.25" SWB horns. They even had them at my LHS.

Ed

RE: BME Edge?
 

Thanks!

Spar

RE: BME Edge?
 

My DA arrived today.

Time to start the break-in!

:D

Does anyone know how much to offset the firewall to get the 3* of right thrust?

RE: BME Edge?
 

Hi dirtypool,

I can give you my exact dimensions when I get home from work. But it looks close to 10mm.

Spar

RE: BME Edge?
 

Do what all the "good guys" seem to be doing these days... don't put thrust in your firewall and use rudder-throttle mix to compensate... compensates for P-Factor on throttle advance and ELIMINATES tracking problems at low speed or idle!! I tried it per Chip Hyde's suggestion and MAN does it work nice. I use a 2=3% right mix on throttle advance and a 1% left mix on idle... amazing how straight the plane tracks now. My firewall has 0* thrust so my cowl is straight as an arrow!!

I have always battled low speed trim and used left rudder to offset the right engine thrust on downlines and idle entry into stalls... NO MORE!!

On these planes with big rudders, this works beautifully.. !

DP

RE: BME Edge?
 

Have you tried that on your Ultra Stick DP? I've always thought of that as a band-aid, but if you think about it, builing right thrust into the firewall is the real band-aid as this setting can only be correct at one throttle setting!

RE: BME Edge?
 

My Ultra Stick also has 0 degrees right thrust. I find this very nicely done on the 10X but it probably requires that radio to make it work the best (expos, tracerate and mixing are all engaged)

I did not do this on the Carden.. figured why experiment with something that is well proven by Dennis, but everything else has seemed to respond well to it so the next Carden I do may even have zero!

So far my BME edge and USL have zero and it has worked well. I really really hated having to tear off cowls and shims every time to adjust incidence... now I use my radio!

Chip Hyde said that even on his last 40+ plane he used only 1* of right thrust and used the radio to take care of the rest... !
I really like the 1* of LEFT rudder on idle.. it totally eliminates the drift common on low speed inverted flight.. !

It took me some playing and about 30 landings before I was able to get the plane tuned just right.. but it was a lot more fun than adding shims!

DP

RE: BME Edge?
 

Excellent! That makes it easier for me.

I use a 9C so I will make sure I can mix that in ok.

Just flipping through my DA manual. It says to use Nicads for the ignition pack. Are NiMH ok? 4.8 or 6 volt?

Man, I am having trouble finding Lawnboy Ashless oil. DA said any quality petroleum oil will be fine for break in but most of what I see is a blend at least. I have some old (6 years) 2 cycle oil at home that is petroleum. That old stuff is 32:1 though.
What should I do?

I would be lost without this forum!!!!!! ( actually I never would have even bought a large scale plane without this forum)

RE: BME Edge?
 

These engine manufacturers need to start specifying oils that are available world-wide, or start selling the oil themselves. Lawn Boy is pretty much impossible to find/acquire in California.

RE: BME Edge?
 

The DA ignition accepts a 6 volt pack so that's what I aim for... (I end up going lion with a 6 volt regulator)

I'm sure you guys have tried here but if you have a Lowe's or Home Depot you may find it in thier lawn mower section...

If you don't find any and want some, I'd be glad to pick up a few cans and mail 'em to ya... They are only like $2 a can and makes two gallons at 32:1...

RE: BME Edge?
 

Maudib,

I may take you up on that offer. My friend is going nuts looking for Lawn Boy for his DA-100. When I see him this weekend I'll pass on the offer. Thanks again.

RE: BME Edge?
 

dirtypool - if you go with the 0* thrust, then obviously you won't need the measurement, but for those that do, if you measure in 11mm in on the right fuse side, that should put you at the 3* mark.

Well, mine is at 3* and my cowl is also straight as an arrow. There is a built in thrust angle on the front of the cowl that makes it easy to have the spinner be parallel to the cowl.... so if you have a 0* firewall, and 0* thrustline on the engine, then this part of the cowl must look off-kilter (sp?).

Spar

RE: BME Edge?
 

You should be able to get lawn boy ashless at any ACE hardware in the USA and Canada. I have never had a problem getting it, even in CA. That said, Bel-Ray S2 and Pennzoil petroleum based oils are also excellent.
I personally like the Bel-Ray - it does not have that "burning pencil" smell to it like the lawn boy, I use the LawnBoy though as that is what everyone says provides the fastest run-in.. my zenoah really likes it too!

Sparhawk - my cowl is cut straight, usually you simply mount it at a slight angle or mount it straight and let the prop flange look crooked. Mine is perfectly aligned at 0 degrees..


The best combo for the DA ignition is EITHER a 4 cell Nicad / NiMH of adequate capacity 1200 mAh + OR a Lithium Ion regulated at 5.1 volts DO NOT let the voltage go above 6V.. you will greatly shorten the life of your ignition. If you use an unregulated 5-cell NiMh you will go over 6V!! I use Fromeco Li-Ion 2200 mah ($22) and a duralite fail safe 5.1V regulator ($35) money well spent. If you don't want to spend $57 on batteries go with a 4 cell NiMh from hangtimes hobbies, a 1500 maH is about $25 bucks. It weighs a little more, but its cheap!

I went with Li-Ion on this plane as I needed the weight savings, but I use the Relions on everything.. it makes life a lot easier when you only have one type of battery and charger! Even my 10X has a Li-Ion battery.

FYI - my 2200 mah li-Ion Ignition battery has about 21 flights on it and it still has 7.2V left under a .5A load. You don't need a huge ign battery!

DP

RE: BME Edge?
 

Your cowl must be different than mine then, as mine is molded such that the prop flange is already angled for this. Putting the firewall and motor at 0* will make this look sick.

See pic:

Spar

RE: BME Edge?
 

Tried my local Lowes, Home Depot, OSH, Mower shop, another mower shop, ACE hardware and nobody has it in stock.

I will see if I can get some ordered. A family friend owns a mower shop about an hour away.

RE: BME Edge?
 

I tried four different ACE Hardwares, at least three different Lowess, at least three different Home Depot's, every Auto Zone, Pep Boys, Napa, and Kragan Auto Parts store in my area (and there's a lot of them) a couple different Sears, called a few lawn mower shops, checked with the local motorcycle dealers (Honda, Yamaha, etc.) tried Von's, Ralph's and Albertson's, even tried my next door neighbor, and nobody has it.

RE: BME Edge?
 

Awe come on man... don't give up til you've given a resonable effort... ;)

Let me know... it grows on trees around here.


Well...

not really...

RE: BME Edge?
 

Let me see if I can get some. If so, maybe I can split a case with ptgarcia and his flying buddies.

Rob

RE: BME Edge?
 

Sparhawk.. I checked mine ... its the same way as yours.. I never pay too much attention to area where the cowl touches the fuselage.. as long as I have an even gap at the prop flange, the joint at the fuse can be slightly angled and it won't matter. Turns out I have 1/4" more overlap on one side vs. the other... no big deal at all I did not even notice until you had mentioned it!

I always mount my engine, align the prop flange for a nice small gap and then drill the cowl mounting holes.. You are right though, had I mounted the cowl straight at the fuse and set the firewall to zero it would have looked like crap!

DP

RE: BME Edge?
 

Hey guys, once you are past the break in phase on your engine check out the AMSOIL synthetic 2 stroke oil. They make a 50-1 called "Dominator" which is similar to the Bellray and superior to regular petrol based 2 stroke oils. I have used this brand for more than 20 years. After running my weed wacker engine on it for several years we stuck a bore scope down the spark plug hole and there was little residue (no varnishing) the spark plugs never fouled and the engine always seemed to start and run flawlessly, seemingly with more pep.
Yoiu can find them on the web and mail order for abut 8.95 a quart. It is rated API (American Petrolium Institute) "TC" If you check your DA manual it should say what rating Jasco or API is required and I believe the Amsoil should qualify. The nice thing about synthetics is that once you have the engine properly broken they have greatly reduced wear for the long haul.

"DOMINATOR 2-Cycle Oil
This racing two-cycle oil has a performance emphasis toward high horsepower and modified racing or trail motors. Examples include snowmobiles, motorcycles, ATVs, personal watercraft and go-carts. Contains higher viscosity oils for best overall protection. Contains additives for higher operating temperatures. Injector use or 50:1 premix. JASO FC, API TC"

RE: BME Edge?
 

Sounds good.. I'll check it out. I usually run Klotz or Amsoil 50:1 I like a 50:1 mix maximum. 100:1 is too little oil for my liking. While I have not seen the reports, I believe there is some evidence that cylinder and ring wear is higher on 100:1 engines.

DP

RE: BME Edge?
 

hey ed42 - how did your pull-pull work out with the CH horns? It looks like the servo arm would need to be about 2 9/16" in order for it to be a 1:1 run. What size of horn did you use? Did you need to mod the fuse sides for the pull-pull line?

Spar

RE: BME Edge?
 

spar, haven't been motivated with all the cold and snow that we've been having here in Chicagoland. I picked up a SWB full arm. The holes are 2.5". It does look about the same using the CH horns on the rudder. I'll probably work on it this weekend when the wife goes to work.

Ed