RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

Ed, I couldn't agree more, and I never said anything at all about young people being smarter, far from it. I said they come out and fly planes extremely well at what seems very early stages of flying ability. I think a large part of that is due to the arf technology.

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

And just what might they being doing to "piss off" the elders in your example?

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

You can certainly add simulator time to that as well. I'm sorry, but sim time and even general video game time work well for our hobby since a good bit of the flying part is mostly hand-eye coordination. I'm currently training a 15yr old that never held a TX in his hand. His Dad bought him an ARF trainer, one of the better ones and all the goodies to go with it and it took no time for him to do his first takeoff and tonight he'll see his first landing and we are at 9 flights total. He does not own a sim but plays a lot of video games

Reflexes help too and since as we grow older reflexes tend to slow down. I'd love to be able to fly like some of the younger people I see hammer out 3D, I tried it but the more low radical stuff I'll leave up to someone with much better reflexes than me. I happy with the amount of 3D I can do but I like to fly IMAC and I strive to be as precise as possible.

Even in IMAC, 3D/Freestyle is starting to go hand in hand. The precision guys, we get shirts and the odd trophy and sometime enough cash to cover some of our expenses. The Freestyle guys get plaques, shirts, cash and other things. The WOW factor is there and this past weekend we had no spectators on Saturday because we had no freestyle scheduled for that day. On Sunday we have 5 freestyles scheduled and you could not find a parking spot until after the freestyles were flown.

And guess what, the Freestyle was won buy a kit built plane and the Advanced IMAC was one by an Arf.

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

Just finished a ST90.
"Posted by NSOWARD"
Power: OS 1.20 Ax - installed upside down without a problem. Didn't use the pits style fitting. Power box came directly out the side.

Installed servo on the rear. CG came out right on the money.

First flight was nice. Since I was breaking in the engine per the book - only fly at half throttle on the rich side for the first 10 flights. All straight and level with no nose up attitudes.

Second flight same - uneventful the ST90 flys very true a real joy even at this slow speed.

Third flight more slow level flight and THEN!!! the right wing riped off the fuselage and my new ST 90 destroyed itself.

Needless to say I am very upset. When I put one in by dumb thumbing it or rip it apart in some wild maneuver well OK. Never had one fall apart flying straight, level and slow. It never did a roll or a loop or any other aerobatic action.

At this point I have to wonder if they ran out of glue the day they built mine.

Nathan

< Message edited by nsoward -- 4/23/2007 6:30:23 AM >


And the score is Ol-Farts 1 Arfers, 0 [sm=lol.gif]

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

Oh I hear ya! I prefer the precision flying IMAC sequences, but it really is getting to be a 3D world. People come out and whatch me fly, and the first thing they ask is how low can ya hover it? I like to do some 3D, but am not nearly as good as others.

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

Don't pat yourself on the back too much. I watched a guy last week that is a 30 year builder that spent 2 months building a Sig Something Extra, only he "forgot" to hinge the ca hinges on the elvator. Guess that how that flight went?

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: mtwister

Ed, I couldn't agree more, and I never said anything at all about young people being smarter, far from it. I said they come out and fly planes extremely well at what seems very early stages of flying ability. I think a large part of that is due to the arf technology.

---------------


I tend to think that the young people are advancing faster because of the computer simulation technology.

Granted, an ARF will get you in the air faster and back in the air faster after a mishap, no doubt, and that has to help, but I think it is the fact that the planes are built for 3D flying in the first place and the fact that computer sims allow a pilot to grow much faster than in the old days.

Ed Cregger

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

And one thing I did forget to mention, I'm considered an "old fart in training ;)" by a few people (mainly by my adult daughters but they do think I'm "cool") )but I love watch a good 3D show as much as the next person. I'm not so closed minded that I cannot see a place for that type of flying as well as ARF/Kit debates.

As has been said and I agree with, too each his own. Life is too short and this is way too much fun no matter what you do (Arf versus kit or Sport/Imac versus 3D) to sweat those that are so closed minded.

I can see Ed's points about how older people wish that they could still do this and that and I see myself going through it with the 3D stuff as I can remember being at that age where reflexes (among other things ;)) were much more "active", but where I am different is I accept that fact that this is life, it is the way it is for me. I do learn new things but I know my limits and even though I push them occasionally, I will usually do it first on the sim then the first time on the plane I will do when I'm at the field alone.

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

Well said.

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

If the people you mentioned in the very first post saw some of the mistakes I've made building the two kits I've completed (and the one I'm currently working on); they'd probably beg me to throw them away and get an ARF.

Actually they're not that bad. My kits have come out strong (probably really means heavy) and pretty straight. My "finishing" terchniques leave a bit to be desired but I do OK.

But, if ARFs were not available I would have never attempted to start RC flying. I currently have four flyable planes, two are kits and two are ARFs. I like all of them.

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

I've never been in a situation where I've been ridiculed for having an ARF rather than a kit-built plane. I've built several planes from kits ranging from gliders to aerobats to war birds, but I don't have the time anymore. If it wasn't for ARFs, I would have to buy only used planes or not be in the hobby at all.

If it wasn't for ARFs, my 8-year old son wouldn't be in the hobby either because, as I said, I don't have time to build. I bought him an Avistar a few months ago and he loves it. He just assumes that every weekend we're going out flying. He was taking off by himself within 6 flights and landing on his own a few flights after that. A few weeks ago, one of the clubs we belong to had a fun-fly. He was able to fly several times with about 50 people watching him. After his flights, several people came up to him, introduced themselves, and talked to him. What a great, and unique, experience for an 8-year old. This past weekend I found out that the club we normally fly at is putting together a little presentation wherein they're going to present him with a trophy and a set of "wings" because of his progress over such a short period of time.

So let's see, is it better that he is able to fly an ARF, and therefore be exposed to new experiences, help me keep him focused on positive activites, and build his confidence in general, or having him sitting at home having never been exposed to flying because I don't have time to build him something? I want him and I to build a plane together at some point so that he understands and appreciates what goes into it, but until then, I'm glad ARFs available. The deragatory comments from builders towards those with ARFs, or vice versa, are ridiculous and useless.

Dan

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

For all the sense this post makes the title could be - Do you get ridiculed for having red hair, or curly or straight or perhaps your follicle challenged? Every person through out their life gets ridiculed for something. With me it's my landings. This is a hobby build a kit or an ARF enjoy it.

The 3D crowd and the helicopter pilots have the same beefs. If you really want to stir up some grief show up at an airfield with an RC Truck!

Course some clubs could care less what you do as long as you enjoy it without harming anyone else. The truck that showed up at my field came from the near by park. The guy showed it off and we showed off our planes. The only thing we asked him was not to run it on the field. We don't care what you brung just have fun.
John

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

i was referring to the things that were mentioned in the posts before that one, like the opportunity for the elders to help the young ones and how some people regard building ability more than others, these are things that people can be on opposite sides about, and probably are also the cause of alot of hostility when people talk about these things... for example one guy might call another 'old fashioned' , and the other guy might then call the first guy 'ignorant' in response

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

It all boils down to people being people. Some folks are tolerant and some folks aren't. As long as all are polite, we can get along just fine.


Ed Cregger

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

I started to stay out of this discussion, since there is not a possibility of all of us agreeing on the basic premise of this thread. We all tend to poke fun at that in which we do not participate. You newbies, poke fun at we old farts who only build. We poke fun at you, who cannot build. That is only natural. It truly does not have anything to do with which one is better, only that things are different. We don't see you as serious hobbyists, since you don't build your models, and you don't see us as good flyers, since we spend more time building than flying. ARF's do serve a useful purpose, but I still son't see them as the be-all, and end-all. Someday, you will probably want a model that is not offered as an ARF, and will attempt to build one for yourself (either from a kit or scratch). Will you have the skills necessary to do this? I think that this is what saddens those of us who build. I truly would like to share what I have learned over the years with you younger guys who are coming into the hobby, but (this is not a blanket statement) I feel that you think that it's a waste of time. We have proven that we can co-exist. There are parallel threads where the Kit and ARF of the same model are so mixed that it is difficult to seperate them. This is where I think the hobby should be. There is much sharing of ideas and techiiques in these threads, and the hobby is better off for this mixing.

I'll get off my soapbox now, and wish you guys a good day.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

Much of what I have "seen" tells me the older we get (50) the smaller for accessability. Since most of my fleet consist of speed type's, the heck with that theory, I'm going bigger so i can see the damn things.

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

hey Bill glad to see you joined in , I know we butted heads in another "where have all the builders gone " only to end up rcu friends in the end . I have a differant approach to show how these differances really exist everywhere but its how a club and its members choose to handle them .. I am one of the directors in a 2500 member ice hockey (mind you this is not a paying job its hobby #2 next to RC ) . There are three type of members --Travel AA/AAA/A/b(lets call this group builders ) then there is in- house from ages 4 thru 12(lets call this group ARFs guys ) then there are limited travel teams--lets call this groups arf-bashers /occosional builders .
The key to each group is how they respect and know how they build on each other .
The limited travel teams is a great way of experienceing travel without the time and budget committement so if you choose that you like it -you attempt to move up to travel (see where I am going with this ) the inhouse is a very inexpensive way to learn , have fun , not invest hours of time and if you like it you can move to both of the above options , and finally the advanced travel is a chance to experience the highlest level of play but with the most amount of time and investment . The highest travel level intices many to advance because of the added rewards , the "real jershey look and feel " the level of teams and numbers and the fun of traveling away .
Every program builds on each other and mind you there are segments in each group critical of each other , the key is that there is direcors invloved to keep all groups intertwined becaused they build the club as one .
Imigine a RC clubs directors , one for scale builders , one for ARF , one for Stunt /pattern , one for giant it can go on and on , each has a fun voice to report back on groups activity , linking the members . At the club meetings , they can bring one voice a month to show a review trends and fun things that a featured member is doing that month .
While keeping that in mind , lets look at how linking groups can advance (baring all the usual roadblocks and time and money)
you enter a hobby shop , there is the giant box -all set plane , radio , everything yuo need with very little time invested , you learn to fly while staulking the planes you really want to fly (lets say warbirds ) , so as you advance from ARf to Arf you move up to a H9 warbird , while nervous and excited you enlist the help of the warbird experts at the club -he is not going to critize you for not building but is simply going to tell you the things to expect from a warbird and try to give you the help and confidence to fly .
A year goes buy and guess what , you on your 4th arf Warbird and now your saying "I want this one , or why does this ARF compant get this part of the look wrong and guess what you might do next ???? build your own , you now have the confidence , hopefully you can steal some time and now the same guys that built warbirds all along is there again .
None of this may have happen if in the very first vist to the club or there after this newbee was met with division vs devirsity , remember being differant is good at a club , learn from it , and learn that sending that guy away will only reduce the members that all have a love for RC in the end.

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

I think it's just mans need to get everything done asap that has led to the explosion of arf's. No one, including myself convinces themselves that they can find the time to build, so we buy arf's. I have built two planes one being a profile p-51 from Tower that said it would only take me 24 hours to build. Right, more like 2 months. LOL.... After the mess I had in my house, the countless times I had to get up and take that 1 hour trip to the LHS because I forgot a $.25 part, and then after all that to have crashed the plane on it's 5th flight. No way, I wont invest that kind of time again, LOL....

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

I know what you mean , buttttttt every time i buy an ARf and trust me my time is limited , I spend a ton of time bashing it to my own fun way I want it to look . I just finished a willshobby (ebay seller ) 66" seafury , what started out as a quick buy and fly deal ended up with split flaps made from liteskin , sliding canopy , major retracts bash , scale counter balance in rudder , scale outline to elevator , panel lines on wing , full interior, fake scale exaust , ect ect ect . I cant leave well enought alone and I have over 7 differant ARF p40 but line for the time to build the Pica I have so I cant get it just right lol :D.
So never say never , you just never know :).
Mind you I am not complaning , just having fun with ARFs the way i find them fun , buy , tweek , tweek some more , bash them to death , and fly them !!!

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

Some people like to build, some like to fly,

There's still just 24 hrs in a day

Steve

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

I LOVE this topic! Some of the best threads in the builders forum are on this subject!

<SoapBox On!>
The opinion of this Builder /ARF Assembler is simple. RC Flight used to be a small club that has been the same since the late 50's. The barriers to entry were high. You had to have the skills and the time to learn to build. Few did. It was comfortable to meet and fly with same people. Thats the environment that "Militant Builders" (tm) remember fondly. They felt like they were special!

Now these people think "That Darn Kid from down the street just joined my club and his thumbs are faster than mine ever were. Video game reflexes have made him a better pilot in 2 years than I have become in 40. HOW DARE HE! He has ruined everything. I used to bring a plane to the field and have everyone faun all over it! Then we would talk about how good I am at building!. Ah..the good old days! And to make matters worse, that ARF looks better than mine and it only took 5 days to assemble. It MUST be a piece of junk." Whether you admit it or not, that is at the core of the hate. Militant Builders are mad because their small club has gone mainstream and the rules are changing.

The problem was that small club never got bigger, the builders died off and nobody replaced them. Truth is, RC Flight was going out of business. It was in a death spiral and it was only a matter of time before it crashed. ARFS changed that. Barriers to entry are now low, Fathers, Moms, Sons and Daughters can now get an arf and fly on the weekend between soccer and baseball. Its now a hobby NOT a career choice! There are MORE people flying! That's important too! I am friends with my LHS owner, ARFs saved his business. He used to have a few kits in the back gathering dust. Business was slow and he could not afford to get more. Most people had to go to swap meets to get new kits. Now 25% of his inventory are planes and his business is booming. Almsot all are ARFs. In fact he just moved into a bigger store. A LHS EXPANDING! When is the last time ANYONE saw that?

Building is still great. Builders are still special. People who are good at it are craftsman. NODOBY would dispute that. Builders should be proud of their planes. That has not changed. However, ARF pilots should be proud of their flying. Just becuase they didn't glue the sticks together DOES NOT make their skills cheaper than those that did. There are now two skill sets in the Hobby. Building and Flying. Both are important. There is now room for people to actually fly for FUN instead of taking this hobby deadly serious. Crashing does not mean the end of your flying for this season anymore. I can't understand how anyone can say this is a bad thing. Yes, Kits are going away and are harder to find because less people are buying them. That was happeneing before ARFs entered the hobby.

Change is good! By the way, if you want to argue my point, fine. But don't bring up the same tired argument about ARF quality. Orginally they were bad, now they are better than most builders can do.

<Soapbox Off!>

Don't let them get to you. MOST people in this hobby are great. Most builders fly an ARF or two and those that don't never will and nothing you can do will change their mind. Ignore them, light it up and fly it like you stole it!

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

i know, what happens if we have someone who built this really intricate plane from scratch but hasnt really flown it that many times, and we get another guy whos been 100% at the sticks , and training on many different arf's, and let him take this scratchbuilt plane into the air... the handbuilt plane is probably abit heavier and the control surfaces would probably need abit of getting used to and stuff but other than that, it should be a pretty fascinating experience for the arf flyer to fly a special plane, and for the builder to see just what his plane is capable of... well just as long as it doesnt crash or fold up in mid air or anything

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

I am just happy to hear that there is a LHS somewhere that is doing good business and actually turning a decent profit for its owner!

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

Gene good post , especially the part about the hobby crashing , I know locally a club was empty about 7 years ago , now theres a waiting list :Dto join

RE: Do you get ridiculed for not building?
 

I feel very fotunate that the flying club I belong to is more interested in safe flites and having fun as a group than who built your airplane, I have the full array of aircraft from foamies to high wing trainers to the f-22 pts from hanger 9, a couple of arf c-160s(manufactured by different companies, there is a vast differece) an arf cessna 337 a topflite kit F8F bearcat and a Palmer kit 132" c-130. I spent less than a $100 on the high wing trainer and flew it the same day I got it, I've spent $2500-$3000 so far on my C-130 and it's barely out of the box, probably won't finish it till 2008.

Just ignor the less than intellegent critics that don't really care about our hobby, remember not everybody is on the board of directors of the 'More Money Than Brains Club' (sometimes I think I was one of the founding members) lol