I thought I spelled that out pretty clearly...

...I've soloed my Sr. Falcon & flying almost every weekend. I actually bought a second plane already...chronologically, at least...my local HobbyTown had an 81" Miles Sparrowhawk

Though I didn't mention that I also spent a lot of time on a Multiplex MineMax that I threw a slow-fly brushless setup into, as the Sr. Falcon is so rare these days, I wanted a trainer for my trainer! I buddy-boxed both of them, a lot, too.

BTW, I ran across the ARF I now want most of all....of course, it's discontinued & impossible to find online:

[link=http://www.carlgoldbergproducts.com/discontinued/gpma1993.html]Gobdberg Skylark 70[/link]

It's a low wing Sr. Falcon...how could I NOT want it?

Ok...my oversight. Here is your next plane if interested in a pattern plane.

Greatplanes new Dirty Birdy 60 ARF.

http://www.towerhobbies.com/products.../gpma1975.html

Best of the best!

Her is a great third plane that is a pattern plane.

http://ecsvr.com/abm/shopexd.asp?id=2395

A modern .46 or .50 sized engine would approximate the old .60 engines of the time. But the SPA guys prefer a .91 four stroke. I don't like the canopy so I would repaint that.

One of the kit built Dirty Birdy's from a Blue Jay kit. The design is an original Bridi and it is a old school build. No glass fuse, it's all built up. I did try to install a .91 four stroke but there was no room on the fire wall but I was able to manage to get an SK .90 two stroke in it. Low RPM and High Torque. It flew even better then my old Kaos. Due to the mid air the second time out I never got to see it's full potential but I could hold knife edge from end to end of our flying site. I was very impressed with this one. It landed so slow and stable it was easier then a trainer. I have so many planes in line for my building board right now otherwise I would be building another one. If I do build another one I will be using my spring air retracts though. Just for that clean look. I think anyone with enough trainer time could fly this plane. I haven't flown the ARF yet so can't say about how that one is?

I also forgot to mention that you can't go wrong with a Super Kaos 40 or 60.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXZT80&P=ML

Possibly the best selling and greatest sport pattern ship of all time.

Ihave been eyeing that kit for a while now. How would it fly with a magnum 52 on it? You say the 91 didn't fit, thats the other motor I have.

A .52 four stroke? Not well at all. The planes are old Class C pattern planes and designed for two stroke 61s on a pipe. Knowing ahead of time the fire wall is too small for a 91 it's easy to out think. You just make a bigger fire wall. You can recess it a bit or add a little length to the cowl area. The beauty of kit building over ARFs are the mods you can do during the build. With a nice 91 FS or like I did with a Low RPM high torque engine you can do nice, slow verticle moves like big slow loops or stall turns. During the 60s and 70s you needed to be going fast to do this. The engines you can use now makes flying them much easier, you don't need to go fast any longer. At one point I had a YS 110 in my Kaos but that was just silly. When I went down to the OS 91FS I left that engine in it for years, a perfect match for how I liked to fly. Slow and smooth but able to jink around at will.
Making changes to a kit is easy if you know things in advance, pattern planes are no different then any others. I have a number of tricks to building any planes that used round engines too. They all have a few quirks of there own.

He said he wanted an ARF. But the balsa DB is light and should fly well with a good .70 4 stroke. Not competitive pattern but good for using as a low wing trainer.

Do they still make the .60 version, or is it only recently discontinued (findable)?

I really want a larger plane.

Thanks!

The .60 Kaos isn't available as an ARF. If you want something .60 size, have you considered the Phoenix 7? I don't have one, but several guys who fly SPA in my club have them and say they are great.

http://hangar-9.com/Products/Default...ProdID=HAN4755

acdii - if the 91 is an OS91FX and if an OS61FXfits the firewall then the OS91FXwill fit as well as it's mounting dimensions are identical to the 61.

As usual, more informatioin is needed in the posts to give a thumbs up or thumbs down.

The 91 OS FS didn't fit. It's been a while but maybe I could have ground down the mount more?? The SK is a two stroke 91 and it fit, it was tight but it fit, but I got it in there. As I recall I got the mount in then built the cowl around the engine. I could remove the engine but not the mount? I don't recall but I think that's how I did it?
Blue Jay is still cutting and selling the Kaos in the 80 inch so if a 60 size isn't big enough for you then that is a kit option. I had my 60 size and the 80 inch for about 20 years and killed them both in the same year.
The one they called the 90 size is not cut by anyone I know of but I have seen the plans in MAN.
Another good choice is the Ultra Sport. Minn and I used to call it th grand son of Kaos! It has the same wing but most old design pattern planes do too.

Magnum 91 4S. Actually I got them confused, the one I have been eyeing is the Killer Chaos 60. I like tail draggers now. The KC has the retract option too.

http://www.bridiairplanes.com/hangar/killerchaos60.html

Can the DB60 be converted to tail dragger?

http://www.bridiairplanes.com/hangar/dirtybirdy60.html

I have a Magnum 52 4S on an Eflite T-34 that I converted to glow. So far not too impressed with it. Takes too long to take off, and performace with the glow is not much better than with electric. Going to take the droops off and see how it performs and if I am still not impressed, it will be turned back to stock and I will have a magnum 52 to put on something else.<br type="_moz" />

I have never seen one any other way then a tail dragger. In the plans it shows you where and how to mount fixed gear or retracts or where to mount the mains as a trike.
As I recall there was an update in the box that explained this.
Same thing with pretty much all of the Bridi designs, you can go trike or tail dragger. I have never built any Bridi design as anything else. My DB was a tail dragger but I installed the mains in the back location and bent my own gear wire with a forward rake and reinforcement. They acted like a shock absorber that way!! Can you recognize BS when you see it??That was a big pile!!! I placed my LG blocks in the wrong location and was too lazy to change them to the forward location when I discovered my mistake. The bent gear thing was truth and they did act as shock absorbers but these planes land very smooth and don't require shocks. With a 91 you will want to bend your own gear legs anyway to get the clearance for the longer prop.
My only plane with trike gear is a scratch built Daddy Rabbit. I was talked into building it as original old school as I could force myself. That was a tough thing for me to do! I did do some mods that you can't see like an added servo to control the front wheel slaved to the rudder. A few others I can't remember.

The Kaos 60 is not available in ARF but you can buy plans and it is a great plane to learn to build. The Kaos 40 is a great size that will fit in any car. It is cost effective due to the smaller size and will give you some advanced flying skills on a budget.

The Killer Kaos is is also superb.

The GP Ultrasport 60 ARF is a real winner and can accomodate retracts:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJ584&P=7

Also the always popular Topflite Contender is a super flyer that will perform the full Pattern routine. Don't laugh this one off! I am dead serious. The Contender will make you look lika a pro. VERY easy to build and for $100 it can't be ignored. Designed by Dave Platt.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHU90&P=7

If I could give one bit of advise for the beginner pattern flyer I would suggest looking at any model with an upright or horizontally mounted engine with side exhaust simply due to ease of operation. Inverted rear exhaust engines require special attention that is not necessary for someone just starting out.

I have personally built and flown all these including a couple TIGERTAILS, a CURARE, and a SWEETATER. Loved the Curare. Also a couple Dave Brown "Phoenix" ships.

I also just for fun built a Kaos 90 from plans with a O.S. .91 FSR and tuned pipe with retracts. Very big but flew just like a Kaos.

The DB 60 shown has a trike setup, thats why I was asking if it can be a tail bird, and such that is is. I just may get both.   After flying the 4*120, I'm really wanting a snappy plane. It's good, but not GREAT when it comes to axial rolls and other maneuvers. Getting the bug man, getting the BUG!  The warbirds may feel lame compared to these planes.

A good 50cc warbird will fly just like a pattern ship in the air but a little trickier to land! I would not suggest referring to any warbird as being "lame"! You may just strike up another war.

LOL I meant Tame, not lame.  I dont have room to fly or store a 50CC Warbird, just enough for a 20cc one.  Someday my P-51 will be done. In the mean time, I am always looking for a second project.

Been a while since I flew a real 70's pattern plane (UFO airframe, Rossi .60 on a Hitori pipe). But I recall the most fun plane as my third plane was the Sig King Kobra, OS 60 long stroke and pipe.

King kobra was a larger Kouger based airrframe. It fLew easy and smooth, fast or slow and I could slow it down to land like my trainer (Falcon 56). Those were the days. Good luck.

Is that brocolli growing on your head? Cause it looks like it.

But anyway, I think a turbine powered jet, like an F-5, or an F-15 makes for a better choice of a 2nd plane. Anything else in-between is just a waste of money.

A jet for a second plane??? I learned to fly with a Pilot QB40S. Nice plane. I had difficulity soloing because it was a sport trainer. Trainers now days just float forever. My second plane was a Supersportster 40. My third plane was a 4 Star 60. Wish I had gone with the 4 Star for a second plane. I fly the 4 star mostly. I learned that a larger size plane is easier to fly. I'm looking to build a warbird next, if I can make up my mind what I want. Then... all this talk and looking at the discussed planes... well you know what I mean.. so many planes and too little time. I personally have never cared for pattern planes, but that is just MY taste. BTW, I still have the QB40S with a Como 40 and a Futaba Conquest, all in great shape. The Como 40 purrs like a kitten. I take it out for a fly every now and then, just for memories. I wish you luck on your second plane. Just do research and ask ALOT of questions. Only YOU know your abilities and I would pick the one you like. If it's too much to handle when you try to fly it, try another one (I don't think you can have too many planes) My buddy went with a pattern plane for his second plane and then to a P-51. (He was braver than me) however, I have never crashed or lost a plane. Looks like I am writing a book here, so, good luck with your search and happy flying. Joe

BTW, I sometimes talk myself into an ARF, only to discover that it's DISCONTINUED. It makes me mad as he##. I would love to discover some old man with a barn full of kits. I would be divorced because I would max out my $60,000 credit card limit and buy everyone I could. Guess you can tell I am forbidden to discuss airplanes in my house. I can hear her now... I HATE AIRPLANES... lol good luck .. IF I ever do discover that barn, who would like to join me???

Wow where did this come from? All the warbirds I have ever flown have wicked control cross coupling. It's all that dihedrial and high mounted stabs. Back to the OP. My second airplane was a Miss Norway pattern airplane with a Webra speed .61 in the nose. Had no issues with the transition as the Miss had great manners. The Mach 1 that followed the Miss was a differnt story. That one loved to land fast. I would say it all depends on which old school pattern airplane you choose. IMO a modern 2M pattern airplane would be out of the question. Not because of difficulty but because they are quite fragile in comparison the the classics.

The DB is not intended for a tail wheel. In fact it would be hard to do because the rudder extends below the fuse. The Killer Chaos is intended for a tailwheel and the tail and rudder is built to allow a tailwheel. The Utter Chaos is the trike version and the rudder is in the way for mounting a tail wheel.

Pattern and IMAC are the most Boring things .... to Watch. What pattern will teach you is Discipline. How to put the air plane where you want it when you want it, Not Helter skelter all ofer the place. A lot (most) Newbies and a lot of old timers are satisfied if they can get it UP and down without smashing it up. They don't really care if they hit the middle of the runway or not just so they can taxi back is good enough ... Well IN MY OPINION thees guys will always be Tipple P's Pis Poor Pilots. If you don't believe me just watch a person that's fly's Pattern or IMAC ... Their general flying is about 5 notches above the Average PPP. you know the guy that just Jumps in to the air , doesn't fly a pattern and just generally Banks and Yanks the plane all over the sky. So yes "Go For It" Get some discipline in your flying you'll be much better for it if not Bored to death with the repartition. But Practice makes perfect or just better.