classic pattern planes are great flying models but are to fast for a second plane or maybe even a third plne. the best second plane on the market is the sig four star 60. It is a very good flying model with all the flight manuverability but slows down for easy landings. pattern planes land very fast compared to other aircraft. if you are going to choose a old pattern plane the kaos 60 is the best one because it slows down for landings better than most.

That's not exactly true, regarding pattern planes. Although they are "slippery", they are not necessarily fast, although, like anything else, they can be fast.

Pattern is flown with "maximum" control. Each flight that I do gets trimmed up for straight and level flight at about half throttle. Then the maneuvers go from there. Going vertical, for instance, requires pushing the throttle to full followed by a pull to vertical, followed by whatever throttle management setting is required for the maneuver. A stall turn, or hammerhead, the pilot will pull to vertical, then at the right moment, reduces throttle to min and pushes over for the proper maneuver.

On the way down, straight down, the throttle is usually kept at minimum until the return to straight and level where the throttle is moved back to about half.

The throttle is not an on-off switch. If it is used as such, even pattern planes will fly fast as will a trainer.

CGr.

I can hammerhead my Kadet, but the 4* noses over when I try it.  Really confuses me too.  It also likes to yaw left on the vertical, so I need right rudder for it to go straight.   It doesn't have enough vertical either. If I try to do a 4 point roll on the vertical, I get 2 points and it falls over.   This is one of the reasons I'm considering a Bridi.

Just remember, your second plane generally has the shortest lifespan. or the most "mis-haps"<div></div><div>If you're an arf guy- Phoenix by hangar 9 or Dirdy Birdi arf at tower, contender at world models:http://www.theworldmodels.com/para/p...airplaneid=158
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</div><div></div><div></div><div>Good luck!</div>

Oh I dont know about that. My second plane is a modified Kadet LT40. It has only had a cracked leading edge and busted ribs on its second flight, and had the landing gear sheared off on a bad landing, but has the most flights on it. My first plane is an Apprentice, and it has been through the wringer more than I can recall. It hit the side of a barn, went into a tree, had its firewall ripped off, snapped the tail off, cracked the fuse.  Still flies though!     I haven't totaled a plane....yet.  I do have an Eflight T-34 that may become the first casualty. I converted it to glow and its not easy to fly, wasn't when it was electric, and with glow on it, it didn't get any better. Needs full flaps to take off, and is twitchy in the air. When I take the droops off, it may fly better, or it may be its last flight.   Already lost the canopy during a snap roll, actually flies better without it.  The last flight it went dead stick on a touch and go, and I had to either put it in the corn and risk ripping up the wings, or dumps its nose. I dumped the nose and broke the prop and nose gear.  Haven't flown it since it was repaired.

Acdii- It sounds like you have thrustline issues on your 4 Star. If it constantly yaws in a vertical (verified by doing it turned both ways so the wind isn't a factor) you have too much thrust in that direction or your rudder trim is simply off. You may also have too much down thrust if your plane flops at the stall. A perfectly trimmed thrust line will result in being able to set up a straight vertical and then drop to a low throttle (maybe 1/4 throttle or so) and the plane will just fall back down based on which direction it is imperfect in the air.

Which brings up another advantage for intermediate pilots to get into pattern flying: it teaches you to trim your model right. When flying a trainer or lots of sport planes, the odd little quirks you may see in a given model is often chalked up to being an idiosyncracy of the design. When you are flying a pattern plane, you know that it is designed to fly true in every attitude, so you are that little bit more motivated to get it right. In turn, you learn what to expect from a properly trimmed model and so when you get the itch for a P51, Tiger Moth, Cub, jet, etc you know how to spot the quirks that are a consequence of the design vs. what are trimming problems.

Do they still make the Goldberg Chipmunk? World Models had an arf, may still have one. Flies great and snappy as you want it to be. Tiger75 or 90 would be plenty but also room for up to a 120 four stroke. The Goldberg Extra was a cool plane as well, a little less stable than the chippy but a fun plane!!

Seems to me the photo I posted of my DB shows it as a tail dragger? It is a small photo though but I have to transfer photos from one puter to the next to get them from my file. Long story, guess I could open a new membership from that puter?
I am an old pattern pilot that has more fun punching holes in the sky these days. Flying presision can put you to sleep, I do fly the basic plus when I fly my 2 meter and it does dazzle the other guys but they are old farts too and easy to impress. I also don't have the pattern pilot ego thing going on.
Flying smooth as Dick mentioned here is more important then flying the pattern but pattern is nice to learn. I had it hammered into me so even when I'm jinken around in the sky it is usually smooth if I'm flying a good plane. I flew my stupid over powered Hots and my little electric the other day. The Hots is not a presision plane in the least but I had fun with it. This is supposed to be a fun hobby. If you want presision flying then by all means learn, if not then just have fun. I haven't competed in anything but club events and would never bother travling around the state to compete. Even competing is boaring!! Hurry up and wait to fly then try to stay awake while others do the same thing.
Build or buy a class C and have fun with it! Don't make a big deal about it. Just buy the kit.

Hmm, you might have something there. On take off, it also veers left the moment the tail comes up. It is an ARF, but that doesnt mean they have the FW on right. I coule add a couple washers to the left side of the motor mount and see if that helps.

You can still get teh GP CHipmunk. It is one of the planes on my list.
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acdii: This is really true. You really learn to do trim and linkage adjustments when flying pattern. It takes a lot more than just flying the thing and adjusting electrical trim with the trim sticks as most do during their maiden flights.

With both my Venus II pattern plane and my Skylark 70 sport plane, after I did the initial trims, my instructor, Ron, sat down with me and we worked through all the other mechanical adjustments to really make them both fly as true as possible. This really made a difference in the way the plane flys, for both disciplined pattern and relaxing sport flying. Gray Beard will probably agree with this. Once you get into the habit of making these adjustments - tweaks, the little stuff that takes some attention to detail, once done, it's done. And we tend to do it as a matter of routine now.

Gene - yeah, I fly mostly sport now. Even though I sort of got into the pattern, I could never get into the type of discipline that it really needed. Flying the same thing over and over again just was not my cup of tea. It did improve my skill level, and improved it a lot, and this makes my sport flying that much more fun. The landings are precise, straight, and smooth - picture perfect.... that is until I forget wind direction and land it with the wind.. then it ain't so pretty until someone whispers in my ear that I am downwind rather than upwind - yeah, it happens - and I turned it around and, well, you get the idea..

CGr

I can say on the 4* build I took a lot of time to balance it in all directions, set the throws by the book, and made minor adjustments until I had the ailerons just right.  When I maidened her, all it took was 2 clicks right aileron for level flight. I made no other trim adjustments. At half throttle, the plane flew level, climbed when I powered up, and dropped when I idled.  I need to readjust the carb though, it takes too long to throttle up from idle, which makes landings tricky as I need more elevator to compensate for the lack of throttle response.  Takeoffs initially were a PITA, the tail wheel was off, I since corrected so it goes straight now hands off, but it tends to kick left quickly when the wheel leaves the ground.  I also notice it will yaw left going from idle to full.  Since I have it on my bench for some minor repairs to the wing from it coming loose on my last flight, I will add a washer to the mount and see if that helps any. <div>
</div><div> The one problem I still have is depth perception. I forget how big this bugger is and wind up too far away and clip the corn.   I am learning where to spot the plane on final though so it doesnt matter what plane I fly, the approach is always in the one spot.  When I keep that in mind, the landings are picture perfect. When I dont, well, you can guess the outcome. <div>
</div><div>Today is normally my day to fly, but the forecast is calling for 18 MPH winds, which I have flown in before, but not when its out of the south. Right across the runway, and over the barn roof, which causes some very interesting turbulence. One time I flew into that turbulence and the plane went up and down 6 feet in a span of 4 feet. Good thing I was high enough above the ground, or it would have been messy. </div></div>

Gets harder as you get older, especailly the first part. The getting down can be hard if using meds. I don't know about the smashing up.

I still say that the World Models Intruder 90 is the best first pattern ARF as it is only $199 and flies great.  But you never know what you will find when you google and found this when I searched "ARF pattern".

http://www.americanpioneerhobbies.com/bravo_mark2.html

It is cheap don't know if its any good.

Dick, fully agree. There is just so much more involved in aircraft set up then straight and level.
I had to laugh when acdii mentioned flying by the barn. Once a student I had owned a funky little electric ARF I had trimmed for him at the field. When we got home he asked if I thought I could fly it here in front of my house, well sure, wshy not. All went well until I got it higher then roof level!!! Just getting it back down to land was a thrill. I never once gave the wind over the homes a second thought. A light breeze here on the ground is nothing but once you get the plane up about 25 feet or so and it's a thrill.

This is a good second plane.... Easy to see. With over 40 years in the hobby it is NOT my second plane:-) But with a 1.6 electric, it is a warranty of insane fun....


Gerry

A Warbird and a pattern ship have one thing in common. You must build them right in order for them to fly right but each requires different setups.

I will agree that there is a lot to do with the warbird subject chosen as to what flying characteristics it will have. Some warbirds are a handfull. Especially those with a short nose moment.

Like a WWI Bipe that my friend has. That sucker has such a short nose on it. I keep telling him its too tail heavy and thats why its so hard to fly. He has the cowl for it that has a chunk of lead attached, and he hasn't flown with it on yet.  Good bet that the plane will fly nice once the cowl is installed. <div>
</div><div>On the P-51 build, Im extending the nose a bit, it looks too short for the plane. It's the top flite 1/7th scale gold edition.  I hope to have it ready to fly by spring 2013.</div>

Gerry, even I could see that one! Acdii, go look for a build thread on the P-51. The Golds are really a nice build and very easy with the interlocking parts. I don't know if it comes out tail heavy or not. Any plane that ever used a round engine will be tail heavy. My Boeing has about 3 pounds of lead in the cowl. That Sukhoi I built last summer I allowed as much for that as I could during the build and it still took about a pound in the nose ring. The plane was designed for a glow 120 and I used a 40cc Brison and it still needed the extra weight.

My Giant P-51 had more throttle than rudder so advancing the throttle too quickly would cause me to run out of rudder. The throttle must be managed on takeoff amazingly just like a real P-51. Imagine that!

You don't want a model that is too easy to fly or it won't need a pilot and it would be boooooriiinggggg!! I don't mean to sound fat headed but I prefer not to have too much mixing and do most of that with the sticks.

I was talking with the late Miles Reed one day ( everyone knew Miles!) and asked him about mixing and coupling and he said that he used absolutely none!

That's hardly a beginners second plane, and not nearly a pattern plane.

Let's keep this on topic.

CGr.

Just got my Tower Talk and the Kaos 40 ARF is costing $135.00 and is an outstanding jump into the pattern plane if you are just wanting to test the water.

Acdii- if you are getting left yaw when you gun the throttle that's a dead giveaway that the thrust line is wrong. It may have been right for the engine and prop they used in developing the plane, but it's wrong for yours.

Would not recommend a classic pattern plane like the KAOS as a second plane. Something like the Spot ON 50 might be better if you go the pattern route. Much more manueverable at lower speeds. Pattern planes are fun to fly and Pattern contests are a lot of fun to fly in.

You might also consider the Reactor .46. Very light wing loading and easy to fly. Not as precise as a Pattern plane but very aerobatic with a neutral wing. Will also do 3D if you want to try it. A pattern plane will not do any 3D stuff and they have heavier wing loading making landings more challenging. Pattern planes will stall quicker also if you pull too hard.

Other than being larger it won't fly much different than his Falcon 56 which is his first plane. His first plane was a good second plane, so he wants a third plane for his second plane. LOL

I'm so glad this post came up, I have seen so many different opinions on pattern planes and how they fly or don't fly. I usually don't fly the one I still have in flying condition unless I see the wind is going to come up but I think I will take it out this week. If the lake bed missed the big storm we just had and isn't under water again! Wish I had someone here to do the reapir work on my 2 meter too, it's one plane I miss but the original builder used Balsarite on the wood and that old covering is really stuck on there!!!