One of us is. Here's a specific hypothetical case. Say your desired ground track is due west, and the wind is from the north. To keep from drifting south, you need to make your heading a little north of due west, say 275 degrees. So you apply right rudder and the plane yaws to the right. In a second or less, its heading is 275. At this point, you can do one of two things. (1) Neutralize the rudder. If you do that, your heading stays at 275 degress, and if that's the right heading to keep you from drifting, your ground track is 270. (2) Keep applying the rudder input you used to make the plane yaw to where its heading is 275. If you do that, the plane will continue to yaw, the heading will continue to change, the ground track will curve toward the north, and you won't get that trophy.

If this doesn't convince you, I give up. I've explained it to you as well as I can. I can't understand it for you.

I couldn't help get engulfed by this very informative discussion, being an intermediate RC flier with no FS experience. But I think the FS and Pattern guys are talking PAST each other. The bottom line disagreement might be a simple case of semantics. The FS guys are saying do rudder only briefly to correct for the drift, whereas the Pattern guys are saying HOLD the rudder continously. All other opinions and facts mentioned here are not in disagreement, as I have seen so far.

So, if you guys want, you can keep arguing and dragging this down to silliness, but the real disagreement seems to be the DURATION of rudder deflection to counteract sidewind. I'm sure the OP and other beginners would appreciate that, including myself.

Ok I think I see where we are loosing one another here. Yes if I apply rudder to change heading and keep that amount of rudder input the heading will continue to change. After the initial heading change, the amount of rudder must be reduced. I thought by stating that the yaw force applied is to counteract the crosswind force that you would have picked up on this. In theory easing off the rudder is needed but in practice there is only about 6 to 8 seconds between an end box maneuver and a center maneuver. If the rudder is held at a constant or backed off some or completely it wouldn't it may not make a huge difference. I will have to experiment some.

You are exactly right, though I don't think it's a question of semantics. As you say, it's a question of do you apply rudder and then neutralize it, or do you apply it and keep it applied. It seems that Speed and I have agreed at last, and if so there's no real dispute. His point about how little time there is before the next set of inputs is a good one, as it seems to show why pattern flyers don't necessarily have to sweat details like this: they are constantly making adjustments so as to keep the plane where they want it. When you're making adjustments that fast, there may be little or no practical difference between the two. Still, I think it's important for beginners to know that you don't deal with a crosswind by applying rudder and keeping it applied, unless you're really fond of circles.

By George, I think he's got it!

You stated "Holding the rudder outbound" and I took that to mean you would hold the rudder. I know guys that you have to drag out the stick plane and beat them over the head with it to demonstrate they don't need to hold in rudder to fly a loop in a crosswind either.

I wouldn't want a beginner to believe that he/she needs to hold outbound rudder during each pass if the wind is blowing in or visa versa.

My point was that some airplanes ( IMAC, pattern ) that exibit no control cross coupling can use rudder to keep from being blown in or out depending on direction of crosswind. I would not instruct anyone to fly a trainer that way, I was only pointing out different airplanes and goals require a different approach.

I'm going to assume that your stick plane reference means you are a competitive aerobatics pilot. Let me ask then how do you keep box depth in a cross wind?

I don't think speed meant that he stands on the rudder stick hard over in the first place, I think he meant that he breaths on the rudder stick just enough to get the job done, that is what I do when I fly similar type aircraft under similar conditions.

Bob

The only real time I need to make a rudder correction for "wind" is when the track of the plane gets upset by spins, stall turns change in windspeed due to height and dumb thumbs.

A simple square loop with the wind blowing in is the easiest scenario to imagine. The plane is ground tracking parallel to the strip with the nose pointing out relative to the ground track by say 5deg, (for argument sake this was estalished after a dodgey turnaround with the big stab of rudder to perform a partial flat turn which is now fully released), the plane only knows it's flying straight so no holding rudder necessary.

The first pull through 90deg requires only aileron for correction (5 deg of roll through the 90 deg pull, this is critical) so the wings will be parallel with the end of the box, the pitch attitude will be 90 deg vertical and the yaw attitude will remain at 5deg nose out meaning your upline track will be vertical, pull the 2nd 90deg with 5 deg roll and you'll be upside down, wings level with your nose pointing out 5deg and ground tracking back the way you came parallel to the strip, rinse and repeat for the other 2 points.

If you didn't roll through the first 90deg, your wings would be 5deg out of wack, your pitch and yaw attitude would be vertical and your upline would be blowing in by 5 deg requiring a rudder and roll correction in the upline. If you DIDN'T put any rudder and roll correction in the upline and pulled the 2nd 90 across the top your wings would come out level but your nose would be pointing in by 5deg plus the 5deg for the wind and your ground track would be blowing in by 10deg requiring a huge rudder correction across the top to push that nose out to fix your ground track after which you end up with the same problem at the bottom needing to use rudder to push the nose out.

Way off topic I know, but I'm happy to continue this via PM's.
Cheers

But for normal turns incorporating rudder for a beginner, I'd recomend smoothly leading with a bit of rudder before the aileron because I think it looks better. Let the passengers (RX and servos) spill their drinks

Exactly and that slight rudder input would be introduced during the exit of a maneuver in a manner that the judges would never see it.

BJR, I can see how that method would work however an astute judge would pick up on that roll being introduced ( roll deviations are easiest to see from the ground ) and deduct accordingly. Then again I have seen different judging methods from region to region here in the US so who am I to say how things are judged down under. For the same square loop I would be adding a smidgen of right rudder in the corners again hiding the yaw command in the corner. If there was a cross wind blowing in my face I would hold that slight rudder from the first corner to the third. After the exit I would see where I was at and adjust accordingly.

I think the one thing that we are still not agreeing on is weather the airplane will keep ground track once a cross wind corrected heading is established. It appears that I say not and you guys are saying yes. From my perspective after you yaw and let off the rudder the cross wind is still there much like the current in a river, the airplane has to drift with the air current unless there is an equal force being applied to counteract.

Perhaps the pattern and IMAC examples could be a little off topic but the information ( debate ) about how to deal with wind directions is still useful to anyone.


Side note. I remember that the deduction for roll deviation was 1 point deduction for every 5 degrees discrepancy and I remember somewhere around 2006-7 that changed this rule to 1 point for every 10 degrees. If I'm remembering this correctly then as long as your not going past 10 degrees in your example square loop then there should be no deduction.

so, not to start something unnecessarily but: Imagine
- I'm a beginner (not hard to do..)
- I am trying to land
- there is a cross wind that is pushing the plane to one side of the runway

What do I do?

Do I keep flying straight, and hope that the runway is wide enough that it doesn't matter?

So far, this is what I've been doing, I think. The runway is wide enough (it's actually an unused 1:1 airstrip!!!). And even if I run out of strip: the side is smooth enough it doesn't matter. But it would be nice to be able to land on a limited-width strip, at some point

Regards

This is very informative to me since I have been getting interested in pattern flying (but not competitively). I know from my basic flying experience that I have to put a short temporary yaw corrections for P-factor when pitching up or down. But for cross-winds, I have had to hold a tiny bit of rudder to maintain the plane on track.

I think this is going to revive the debate but with my instructors cap on, What I suggest is to rudder slightly into the wind to keep your ground track. Your trainer will have a roll couple so you will want to counter that with opposite aileron. As you get into ground effect you can ease off to get the gear going strait down the runway. Going to Youtube and searching " landing in a crosswind " will be very informative.

I'll try and give you a simple, straight answer
this takes practice: begin by not trying to land, but rather making a slow pass over the runway.
assume the wind is blowing the airplane toward you.
on the final turn from base leg to final approach, you want to point the airplane not straight down the runway, but at an angle slightly away from you.
(you want to point the nose 'into' the wind slightly)
the end result: the airplane will be POINTING at a different angle than it appears to be moving.
(the airplane will be heading in one direction, but it's track over the ground will be a straight line to the runway)

the final piece when actually landing is to quickly but smoothly re-align the airplane with the runway just before it touches down. ('kick the airplane straight' using the rudder)

as speedracerntrixie pointed out, the actual stick inputs vary with the type of airplane, the wind velocity, how big of an angle is the crosswind (the amount of crosswind component), etc.
you MAY need to use the ailerons to keep the wings level, you may need to adjust the airplanes heading on final, etc, there are plenty of semantics and nuances
but the basic idea is that you fly the final approach with the airplane pointed slightly into the wind, with it's ground track drawing a straight line aligned with the runway,
then straighten the airplane just before it touches down.

So you recommend that a beginner land in a crosswind by slipping, with the ailerons set to hold the downwind wing lower? There are two things wrong with that. First, it's a lot easier to crab. Just turn the plane into the wind a little, then stop turning and and keep it heading that way. See Post 140. No need for cross control. Second, if for some reason you do want to handle the crosswind by slipping, lower the wing on the side from which the wind is blowing, and keep the fuselage straight by using a bit of rudder away from the wind, not toward it. It's hard to get that right, especially with a model, but it's a useful skill to learn, as slipping is how you lose a lot of altitude in a hurry when you need to. But keep your airspeed up, as your stall speed in a slip is higher.

Someday, if you want to become a pattern flyer, you will do things differently because you will lose points if your wings aren't level. For ordinary flying, keeping the wings level all the time is just wrong. We got into this discussion in the first place because of a silly video recommending that. Don't do it.

Top again you seem to be wanting to put words in my post. Where did I say to put the downwind wing low? Nowhere. I said to counter the roll couple with ailerons. There is a difference there my friend. Please stop making assumptions to prove me wrong. The reason for this is that while it is a little more difficult to learn it keeps the wings level so that if the pilot rides it all the way to the ground he won't hit wingtip first. Having a less experienced pilot flying final with one wing low usually results in a ground loop or cartwheel.

How do you crab?
And by this I mean which stick do you move, to make the plan yaw, roll, or pitch, in a particular direction

Regards

There are two ways to fly a crosswind approach and landing, crabbing, or sideslipping, both work, I personally think the sideslipping method is easier, but in some aircraft it can be undesirable for a number of reasons.

There is an easy way and a hard way to fly a sideslipping approach in a crosswind.

Bear with me on this explanation, it is how I explained it to my students.

1. Primary effect of ailerons is roll, secondary effect is yaw
2. Primary effect of rudder is yaw, secondary effect is roll.

If you change one, you will have to compensate with the other.

If you are constantly trying to change both, you will be forever chasing your tail.

In this example lets look at a cross wind blowing from the right. IE pushing you left.

On final approach in a crosswind.. do THIS.

Line up with the runway. Nose pointing at the runway.

Now roll slightly right, IE bank towards the side the cross wind is coming from. (this puts your lift vector to the right so the horizontal component of lift will correctly compensate for the drift)

The aircraft will want to turn right and change heading. Stop this by applying Left rudder ( away from the crosswind )

Now here is the critical part - (it can be easy or it can be hard.. I like easy) LOCK your foot in position. IE Hold the rudder and don't move it.

You now only have to use aileron to make slight adjustments to your direction to fly to the runway. You are only adjusting one control, this is easy, instead of constantly adjusting two controls (hard)

Your aircraft is now in a sideslip.

In a no wind situation this configuration would make you drift right, however since the cross wind is making you drift left, they cancel each other out.

In a light aircraft you can hold this rudder all the way down to the runway and even during the flare. Your nose will be straight and you should land right wheel first.

Perfect cross wind technique and easy as pie.

This technique works perfectly for RC planes also.

Assume you are landing left to right, wind is blowing from behind you, IE a right cross wind, making your plane drift left as seen from the plane.

Roll right slightly, apply slight left rudder and lock your rudder position, don't keep changing it. Now fly to the runway adjusting your direction with ailerons as you would in any other landing and land with this rudder held. It works great in crosswinds.

Reverse everything for left crosswinds..

This sideslipping technique works in any aircraft but is not used in larger corporate jets or airliners. Aside from being uncomfortable to passengers, the main reason for this is that any bank on touchdown with a long swept wing may result in a wing tip strike (just 6 degrees of bank will do it in some corporate jets) so the technique used in larger aircraft is crabbing with wings level and using rudder to straighten the nose just before touch down.

However, the side slipping method works really well in light aircraft and I have had students use it to land quite easily in 30 Kt crosswinds in a little Robin 2160 (landing speed 65 Kts)

Here is a really good video, most of the planes use the crabbing technique but at 2:46 the SAAB is using the sideslipping method, you can see his right wheel touch first, the bank angle is held during the approach and the nose is generally in line with the runway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PdUdaXDHm4 Another good one that demonstrates both methods with RC aircraft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SmTxX4TLww

You crab by turning the nose of the plane into the wind, and then, when you have turned enough to counteract the downwind drift that the wind is creating, you stop turning and hold that heading. That is, you keep the plane angled into the wind, enough so that the ground track is straight in the direction you want it to be. You make the turn the way you make all your turns: aileron only in the direction you're turning, or aileron and rudder both in that direction. Any time you have a crosswind you can practice this: it's not just for landing. Practice flying a rectangular pattern around the field.

What you don't do is what that ridiculous video was recommending. You don't cross control (i.e. rudder one direction, ailerons the other), except (1) to do aerobatic things like skidding turns or impressing pattern judges) or (2) to slip, so as to lose altitude, or, for the fun of it, to handle a crosswind by slipping, rather than by crabbing. When you do slip to lose altitude or deal with a crosswind, you should do it with the wing low on the side from which the wind is blowing. Holding the other wing down (which includes keeping it from going up) is pointless. It can be done, but there's no reason (pattern flying aside) to do it.

This stuff about making flat turns on final so as to keep from hitting a wingtip isn't good advice. If you need to turn so sharply so low that hitting a wingtip is likely, you have made a bad approach. Add power, go around, and try it again. Almost all the damage that beginners do to their planes on landing comes from trying to land after making a bad approach. If your approach is bad, go around and do it better.

It's like we're going in circles here; starting with a video that taught you to fly normal turns with your controls crossed, and now we're back to that again. Don't do it.

Actually we are back to guys brow beating us with full scale piloting techniques again to make themselves feel superior. I say this because rather then just state the way they handle the situation and let people decide on their own what would work best they feel the need to dis-prove someone in the process. I'm done with this childlike behavior, I have much better things to do with my time.

I land light full-scale planes the way Rob describes. You can land models that way, too, but it's a lot harder with models, because it's hard to hold a specific bank angle when you aren't in the cockpit with a view of the horizon. So, for beginners, I recommend crabbing. As an earlier post described, when you crab you can use rudder to straighten the plane just before touching down, though with trainers, when starting out, you don't absolutely have to do that. Our landing gear is insanely strong compared with full-size planes. So you can practice crabbing on final and, when you get that down, add the last-minute rudder input.

I'm not browbeating anybody, and as I have no trophies for aerobatic flying I'm certainly not claiming superiority. What I'm trying to do is make sure a beginner doesn't try to learn to do normal flying with his controls crossed.

I sure wish I would have had a Top_ Gunn keyboard pilot like you to save me from crossing my controls up back in the 60s, oh but wait, I couldn't cross them up because they shoved a U/C handle in my hand and told me to lock my wrist and point the the handle where I wanted the airplane to go, and So I did. The rest was that million dollar education I received as many of us did back before we had the internet with keyboard experts to show us the way.

So beginner's my only real advice to you is practice makes perfect, burn lots of gas or fuel and push your own envelopes through normal, or abnormal flight, whatever the hell that means because that is the only real way you are going to receive your own answers and R/C piloting motor skills that you seek, you are not going to get them from experts on the internet, including me! So happy flying...

Bob