Uni-Flow Tanks
07-05-2008, 09:34 AM
#27
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
Wow! A very interesting read to say the least. Thank you gentlemen for keeping it civilized. I found this thread by doing a search on Uni Flow Tanks. Something I'd never heard of before in almost 20 years of modeling, until today, while reading another thread. I've had an OS 46FX with a Pitts style muffler on it, and currently have an OS 46AX with the standard muffler on it. The older engine doesn't seem to want to respond to needle adjustments at all (usually lean with several turns out) and the newer engine tends to die after about half a tank. While there certainly may be other factors involved in the poor performance of both engines, and there probably is (I've never been good at really tuning an engine[:@]), I think the UniFlow setup has great merit. It sounds to me as though needle valve adjustments for atmospheric conditions would be more or less a thing of the past.
I'll throw this out for discussion:
Considering my Pitts style muffler; Would this tank setup have any influence on the issues caused by the Pitts muffler? I've been told by others, that the problem with Pitts mufflers is that they don't usually provide enough back pressure to the tank unless one of the exhaust ports is either partially blocked or plugged all together. Is this reasonable?
I'll throw this out for discussion:
Considering my Pitts style muffler; Would this tank setup have any influence on the issues caused by the Pitts muffler? I've been told by others, that the problem with Pitts mufflers is that they don't usually provide enough back pressure to the tank unless one of the exhaust ports is either partially blocked or plugged all together. Is this reasonable?
07-05-2008, 11:21 AM
#28
Senior Member
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
The uniflow principle was discovered and explained by Edme Mariotte of Dijon, France, in the 1600's. Google mariotte bottle or mariotte siphon for interesting stuff. It was applied to CL airplanes by several different people, including Bob Palmer, in the late 40's early 50's.
Mariotte was also the first person to test a model in a wind tunnel. (Model of what, I wonder.)
Mariotte was also the first person to test a model in a wind tunnel. (Model of what, I wonder.)
07-05-2008, 03:35 PM
#29
Senior Member
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
Uniflow has been proved absolutely to provide more uniform engine runs, especially when the model experiences high g loads. How it works is a lot of fun to discuss, but how it performs is documented. It solves engine run problems and has for years and years.
Having the pressure line outlet into the tank in close proximity to the fuel pickup point in the tank insures that the pressure the pickup point sees is constant. Or almost constant.
There are a couple of model airplane competitions that have proven uniflow setups work, and prove it over and over and over and.....
Having the pressure line outlet into the tank in close proximity to the fuel pickup point in the tank insures that the pressure the pickup point sees is constant. Or almost constant.
There are a couple of model airplane competitions that have proven uniflow setups work, and prove it over and over and over and.....
07-05-2008, 04:44 PM
#30
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
I never truly enjoyed control line flying until finding the Uniflow tanks. They work and are a superior method for plumbing your tank.
The position of your tank is still important though and Uniflow will not solve this. On most C\L aircraft, tank height is adjustable. Moving the tank up or down slightly effects how rich or lean the engine runs upright or inverted. The goal is to find the spot where it runs the same. Generally I have found that a side mounted engine ran rich inverted and needed the tank lower.
This will be the same with RC aircraft. Tank height is not something most RC flyers care about unless the engine does not run properly. In C\L it is a very important factor in a properly trimmed model.
The position of your tank is still important though and Uniflow will not solve this. On most C\L aircraft, tank height is adjustable. Moving the tank up or down slightly effects how rich or lean the engine runs upright or inverted. The goal is to find the spot where it runs the same. Generally I have found that a side mounted engine ran rich inverted and needed the tank lower.
This will be the same with RC aircraft. Tank height is not something most RC flyers care about unless the engine does not run properly. In C\L it is a very important factor in a properly trimmed model.
07-05-2008, 07:05 PM
#31
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RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
I just hooked up my first uniflow system on a plane yesterday. Before yesterday the plane ran HORRIBLE when upsidedown even though the tank was almost right were it should have been heigth wise,and there was noticable leaning toward the end of tank. The only other issue was I was using a rather large 14oz tank that might have been trying to push too much fuel into the engine depending on the planes attitude,such as upside down even though the tank was only maybe 1/4" above the needle while inverted(1/4" below normally). Well,I stuck in a 10oz tank which was able to let me raise the tank about 1/4",and I installed the uniflow setup. Now the engine is running GREAT. Almost no noticable difference while upsidedown or anywhere else. It also seems to run good on almost an empty tank,but I havent actually ran it that low in the air yet. Anyways.....I'm not sure if it was the smaller tank,the raising the tank 1/4",or the uniflow..........but I can say the uniflow doesnt hurt! And seems to work great. I will say the bubbles in the tank concerned me,but you always get foaming regardless,and thus far it doesnt seem to affect anything. So,I will defenitly be installing more uniflow systems in the future and its definetly worth trying!
By the way,I did this with an upright mounted .91 thunder tiger 4-stroke.
By the way,I did this with an upright mounted .91 thunder tiger 4-stroke.
07-06-2008, 08:07 PM
#32
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
The one thing about uniflow plumbing is it is no harder than regular plumbing when using 3 lines. So the 3rd may as well be uniflow as it is great to use when draining the tank.
Also, it is imperative that you tank is totally sealed other than the Uniflow line to the muffler. If you have a leak somewhere you will have some engine running problems.
Also, it is imperative that you tank is totally sealed other than the Uniflow line to the muffler. If you have a leak somewhere you will have some engine running problems.
07-06-2008, 11:14 PM
#33
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is not used with is a vent.... according to the illustrations its "usually" pluged, so then i only need a tank with 2 clunks?
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
07-06-2008, 11:32 PM
#34
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is a vent....
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
07-06-2008, 11:48 PM
#35
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RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
wow, good thread. After reading the debate, my only concern is foaming. Is that an issue? We have probably all had foaming from vibration, but I think Ill to blow in my glow fuel and see how much it foams before I try this.
07-07-2008, 12:05 AM
#36
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
Foaming shouldn't be a problem because the only bubbles that can get in are exactly the same as the rate the engine uses fuel. In an ordinary tank set up where the vent (pressure) line goes to the top of the tank when upright then that vent goes to the bottom of the tank when you fly inverted and it then bubbles at exactly the same rate as a uniflow tank. In fact, with a normal vent like this, when you fly inverted the tank acts as a uniflow all the time the model is flying inverted. That's why most engines will lean out slightly when going inverted because the needle hasn't been tuned for a uniflow tank.
07-07-2008, 12:13 PM
#37
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is a vent....
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is a vent....
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
07-07-2008, 02:35 PM
#38
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RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
There is great literature here to read and involve to practical fluid physics, but the real deal is that the uniflow set up does not work, at least for me. I have tried in different circumstances but mostly because I wanted to stop flooding the carb in a high tank set up. According with the magazine review, the Uniflow will prevent the flood in a high tank configuration, in my tests the flooding with a Uniflow system is worst than using the normal tank configuration, maybe because I was using an enclosed system with a check valve at the muffler line.
In a lower tank the fuel does not get to the carburetor easily, maybe, as has been discussed earlier because of the pressure of the fluids that could cancel the effectiveness of the muffler pressure.
The system works better with the tank level with the carb. Providing a constant flow on the fuel, and preventing the engine from a leaner condition with an almost empty tank.
Our engines work fine with the normal configuration an can handle the leaner condition with almost empty tanks (They can not handle an empty tank with either system
)
It will be good for all of us to hear from more people that have been using the uniflow set up and to hear from their experiences in a level, higher or lower tanks setups. Allanflowers mentioned something very accurate when he expressed that plane manufacturers does not mention the uniflow system and the reason is simplicity and effectiveness. I just wanted to express my personal experience and I am looking forward to hear from some more experiences.
In a lower tank the fuel does not get to the carburetor easily, maybe, as has been discussed earlier because of the pressure of the fluids that could cancel the effectiveness of the muffler pressure.
The system works better with the tank level with the carb. Providing a constant flow on the fuel, and preventing the engine from a leaner condition with an almost empty tank.
Our engines work fine with the normal configuration an can handle the leaner condition with almost empty tanks (They can not handle an empty tank with either system
)It will be good for all of us to hear from more people that have been using the uniflow set up and to hear from their experiences in a level, higher or lower tanks setups. Allanflowers mentioned something very accurate when he expressed that plane manufacturers does not mention the uniflow system and the reason is simplicity and effectiveness. I just wanted to express my personal experience and I am looking forward to hear from some more experiences.
07-07-2008, 02:48 PM
#39
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Maybe, but it depends on the level of your muffler. It may push raw fuel though it, if you plug or pinch off the muffler line, then that would work. You can also fill it through the muffler line and pinch off the carb line
ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is a vent....
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is a vent....
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
what if everything is in a tight fitting cowl with no access other than fueler line hanging down? ..... If a T fitting is a viable option i have no problem with two lines hanging down from the underside of my cowling, one off of a T from the carb or muffler to fuel, and the other a vent which will be plugged after i fuel.
07-07-2008, 04:29 PM
#40
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie
what if everything is in a tight fitting cowl with no access other than fueler line hanging down? ..... If a T fitting is a viable option i have no problem with two lines hanging down from the underside of my cowling, one off of a T from the carb or muffler to fuel, and the other a vent which will be plugged after i fuel.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Maybe, but it depends on the level of your muffler. It may push raw fuel though it, if you plug or pinch off the muffler line, then that would work. You can also fill it through the muffler line and pinch off the carb line
ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is a vent....
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is a vent....
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
what if everything is in a tight fitting cowl with no access other than fueler line hanging down? ..... If a T fitting is a viable option i have no problem with two lines hanging down from the underside of my cowling, one off of a T from the carb or muffler to fuel, and the other a vent which will be plugged after i fuel.
07-07-2008, 04:35 PM
#41
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
ORIGINAL: alfredbmor
There is great literature here to read and involve to practical fluid physics, but the real deal is that the uniflow set up does not work, at least for me. I have tried in different circumstances but mostly because I wanted to stop flooding the carb in a high tank set up. According with the magazine review, the Uniflow will prevent the flood in a high tank configuration, in my tests the flooding with a Uniflow system is worst than using the normal tank configuration, maybe because I was using an enclosed system with a check valve at the muffler line.
In a lower tank the fuel does not get to the carburetor easily, maybe, as has been discussed earlier because of the pressure of the fluids that could cancel the effectiveness of the muffler pressure.
The system works better with the tank level with the carb. Providing a constant flow on the fuel, and preventing the engine from a leaner condition with an almost empty tank.
Our engines work fine with the normal configuration an can handle the leaner condition with almost empty tanks (They can not handle an empty tank with either system)
It will be good for all of us to hear from more people that have been using the uniflow set up and to hear from their experiences in a level, higher or lower tanks setups. Allanflowers mentioned something very accurate when he expressed that plane manufacturers does not mention the uniflow system and the reason is simplicity and effectiveness. I just wanted to express my personal experience and I am looking forward to hear from some more experiences.
There is great literature here to read and involve to practical fluid physics, but the real deal is that the uniflow set up does not work, at least for me. I have tried in different circumstances but mostly because I wanted to stop flooding the carb in a high tank set up. According with the magazine review, the Uniflow will prevent the flood in a high tank configuration, in my tests the flooding with a Uniflow system is worst than using the normal tank configuration, maybe because I was using an enclosed system with a check valve at the muffler line.
In a lower tank the fuel does not get to the carburetor easily, maybe, as has been discussed earlier because of the pressure of the fluids that could cancel the effectiveness of the muffler pressure.
The system works better with the tank level with the carb. Providing a constant flow on the fuel, and preventing the engine from a leaner condition with an almost empty tank.
Our engines work fine with the normal configuration an can handle the leaner condition with almost empty tanks (They can not handle an empty tank with either system
)It will be good for all of us to hear from more people that have been using the uniflow set up and to hear from their experiences in a level, higher or lower tanks setups. Allanflowers mentioned something very accurate when he expressed that plane manufacturers does not mention the uniflow system and the reason is simplicity and effectiveness. I just wanted to express my personal experience and I am looking forward to hear from some more experiences.
Your first mistake was to think the Uniflow would solve an extreme high tank problem and your second was to put a check valve on your pressure line! It is amazing how much pressure comes from your muffler line but it mostly bleeds out of the tank because it is not sealed. Increasing tank pressure would only make things worse if you already had a fuel syphoning\flooding problem.
The solution here would be to use a regulator like a Cline. Uniflow is a great system I have not read the article but it sounds to be misleading. Your tank must still be positioned properly. It did not work for you because it was not meant to solve your problem which you would have had regaurdless of how your tank was vented.
07-07-2008, 05:24 PM
#42
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
ORIGINAL: vertical grimmace
Use your muffler (uniflow) line to fill and drain your tank. Unplug your vent line while doing so. Keep the vent line plugged when running your engine. This setup works perfectly for your setup. You never need to gain access to the fuel line running to your carb. I have been doing this for over 10 years and it works great.
ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie
what if everything is in a tight fitting cowl with no access other than fueler line hanging down? ..... If a T fitting is a viable option i have no problem with two lines hanging down from the underside of my cowling, one off of a T from the carb or muffler to fuel, and the other a vent which will be plugged after i fuel.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Maybe, but it depends on the level of your muffler. It may push raw fuel though it, if you plug or pinch off the muffler line, then that would work. You can also fill it through the muffler line and pinch off the carb line
ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is a vent....
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
in a UNIFLOW tank there are three lines one to carb, and other to muffler pressure fitting which both have clunks and the third is a vent....
in most of glow planes i run a 3 line tank 2 clunks one to carb, and fueler line wich is plugged after i fuel, and the vent goes to the muffler
could i use a T fitting to fuel uniflow tank from the carb clunk and cap the vent when im done fueling?
what if everything is in a tight fitting cowl with no access other than fueler line hanging down? ..... If a T fitting is a viable option i have no problem with two lines hanging down from the underside of my cowling, one off of a T from the carb or muffler to fuel, and the other a vent which will be plugged after i fuel.
If i dont have easy access to my muffler could i put a T fitting to fuel my plane and plug it when im done fueling
07-07-2008, 07:28 PM
#43
Senior Member
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
My explaination of uniflow is that the engine thinks it is sucking fuel from the end of the uniflow inside the tank. So a uniflow will not solve a high or low tank problem as such. I would not consider a hard tank, other than a uniflow, for any serious airplane. My personal preference based on my experience.
07-07-2008, 08:31 PM
#44
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
The proof as to how well they perform can be summed up by how many national and world championships this type of tank has been involved in or won. It is not a stretch to say that any serious C\L stunt aircraft uses this venting in their tank.
07-07-2008, 09:30 PM
#45
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
ORIGINAL: Jim Thomerson
My explaination of uniflow is that the engine thinks it is sucking fuel from the end of the uniflow inside the tank.
My explaination of uniflow is that the engine thinks it is sucking fuel from the end of the uniflow inside the tank.
. Explaining the physics behind how a uniflow works though is a little more complicated but once it's understood it's a case of smacking the head and saying Dohhh, of course!The very first use of uniflow was in a CL speed model in the late 40's because those engines are tuned right to the ragged edge and can't afford any change in mixture through the entire flight. The first recorded use in a CL stunt model was in 1960 and they've been used ever since. The heli guys got onto them a few years ago too.
07-08-2008, 11:44 AM
#47
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RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
ORIGINAL: vertical grimmace
Interesting how you can make a blanket statement that something does not work, when this type of tank is not designed to solve the problem you had.
Your first mistake was to think the Uniflow would solve an extreme high tank problem and your second was to put a check valve on your pressure line! It is amazing how much pressure comes from your muffler line but it mostly bleeds out of the tank because it is not sealed. Increasing tank pressure would only make things worse if you already had a fuel syphoning\flooding problem.
The solution here would be to use a regulator like a Cline. Uniflow is a great system I have not read the article but it sounds to be misleading. Your tank must still be positioned properly. It did not work for you because it was not meant to solve your problem which you would have had regaurdless of how your tank was vented.
ORIGINAL: alfredbmor
There is great literature here to read and involve to practical fluid physics, but the real deal is that the uniflow set up does not work, at least for me. I have tried in different circumstances but mostly because I wanted to stop flooding the carb in a high tank set up. According with the magazine review, the Uniflow will prevent the flood in a high tank configuration, in my tests the flooding with a Uniflow system is worst than using the normal tank configuration, maybe because I was using an enclosed system with a check valve at the muffler line.
In a lower tank the fuel does not get to the carburetor easily, maybe, as has been discussed earlier because of the pressure of the fluids that could cancel the effectiveness of the muffler pressure.
The system works better with the tank level with the carb. Providing a constant flow on the fuel, and preventing the engine from a leaner condition with an almost empty tank.
Our engines work fine with the normal configuration an can handle the leaner condition with almost empty tanks (They can not handle an empty tank with either system)
It will be good for all of us to hear from more people that have been using the uniflow set up and to hear from their experiences in a level, higher or lower tanks setups. Allanflowers mentioned something very accurate when he expressed that plane manufacturers does not mention the uniflow system and the reason is simplicity and effectiveness. I just wanted to express my personal experience and I am looking forward to hear from some more experiences.
There is great literature here to read and involve to practical fluid physics, but the real deal is that the uniflow set up does not work, at least for me. I have tried in different circumstances but mostly because I wanted to stop flooding the carb in a high tank set up. According with the magazine review, the Uniflow will prevent the flood in a high tank configuration, in my tests the flooding with a Uniflow system is worst than using the normal tank configuration, maybe because I was using an enclosed system with a check valve at the muffler line.
In a lower tank the fuel does not get to the carburetor easily, maybe, as has been discussed earlier because of the pressure of the fluids that could cancel the effectiveness of the muffler pressure.
The system works better with the tank level with the carb. Providing a constant flow on the fuel, and preventing the engine from a leaner condition with an almost empty tank.
Our engines work fine with the normal configuration an can handle the leaner condition with almost empty tanks (They can not handle an empty tank with either system
)It will be good for all of us to hear from more people that have been using the uniflow set up and to hear from their experiences in a level, higher or lower tanks setups. Allanflowers mentioned something very accurate when he expressed that plane manufacturers does not mention the uniflow system and the reason is simplicity and effectiveness. I just wanted to express my personal experience and I am looking forward to hear from some more experiences.
Your first mistake was to think the Uniflow would solve an extreme high tank problem and your second was to put a check valve on your pressure line! It is amazing how much pressure comes from your muffler line but it mostly bleeds out of the tank because it is not sealed. Increasing tank pressure would only make things worse if you already had a fuel syphoning\flooding problem.
The solution here would be to use a regulator like a Cline. Uniflow is a great system I have not read the article but it sounds to be misleading. Your tank must still be positioned properly. It did not work for you because it was not meant to solve your problem which you would have had regaurdless of how your tank was vented.
Definitively it's necessary to read thoroughly the review, the set up I used was following, step by step the procedure reviewed at the magazine.
One more note: There were two different issues on the same magazine covering the Uniflow system, the second one tried to clarify some confused statements made on the first one, I do not remember if it was FlyRC or MAN, as I am subscribed on both, but I would assure that it was a FlyRc magazine.
Maybe I did some mistakes in the set up like you are mentioning, but the author claims that this system works to solve a higher tank set up (they show some drawings) and the use of a check valve, you should look for that review and tell us if it is right or wrong.
07-09-2008, 03:04 PM
#48
RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
Using a Uniflow tank will allow a bit higher mounting because the low vent negates the head above the vent, but it is not a cure all. It will not prevent syphoning from a high tank setup and will only widen the useable margin. Its main purpose is to prevent changes of head and thus keep the mixture constant through the run.
07-12-2008, 09:24 AM
#49
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RE: Uni-Flow Tanks
Hi all,
interesting read indeed!
I have to wonder though why the Ducted Fan Jets of the day did not use the Uniflow system?
As you can see from the diagram below BVM used remote Mixture Control to compensate for the "leaning" of the engine as the tanks emptied. Why wouldn't they use Uniflow instead? It would be hard to believe that BVM did not know about the Uniflow principle...
Anyone?
interesting read indeed!
I have to wonder though why the Ducted Fan Jets of the day did not use the Uniflow system?
As you can see from the diagram below BVM used remote Mixture Control to compensate for the "leaning" of the engine as the tanks emptied. Why wouldn't they use Uniflow instead? It would be hard to believe that BVM did not know about the Uniflow principle...
Anyone?