TWO separate engine problems
01-01-2008 | 04:01 PM
#1
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From: Pittsfield,
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TWO separate engine problems
and hopefully they are an easy fix without too much cash.
ONE: My GMS 2000 .32's piston will not pump like it is supposed to. When I turn the crankshaft back and forth with fingers the piston does move. But when I try to flip the propellor, dead-prop, like its tightened too tight (which it is not) and does not budge at all to flip the piston.
TWO: My Super Tigre .45's carburator is loose and the nut underneath the throttle arm does not tighten, just goes round and round
P.S: Where can I get muffler gaskets and where can I get a replacement prop washer for my Super Tigre?
ONE: My GMS 2000 .32's piston will not pump like it is supposed to. When I turn the crankshaft back and forth with fingers the piston does move. But when I try to flip the propellor, dead-prop, like its tightened too tight (which it is not) and does not budge at all to flip the piston.
TWO: My Super Tigre .45's carburator is loose and the nut underneath the throttle arm does not tighten, just goes round and round
P.S: Where can I get muffler gaskets and where can I get a replacement prop washer for my Super Tigre?
01-01-2008 | 04:22 PM
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From: Poolesville, MD
RE: TWO separate engine problems
Tower Hobbies carries both engine parts.
I also stripped the ST carb thread and ordered a half dozen replacement ones.
If the GMS is new, then this sounds like a normal new ABC engine.
It will loosen quite a bit after you break it in.
A good trick is to heat the cylinder head with a heat gun before you start the engine for the first time.
This will make it easier for the engine to crank over and it will prevent damage as the engine is already "pre-warmed" when you first start it.
Just run it rich.
The GMS needs about a gallon or two run through it to break it in.
You'll find that it will be a bit difficult to get a good transition initially.
If you use standard tuning techniques, the engine will be a bit "off" once it is broken in. I find that the low end needs to be a bit LEANER than you would normally expect with typical tuning ( remember once broken in ) and the high end needs to be a bit richer than you would expect. Doing so eliminates the transition hesitations.
I also stripped the ST carb thread and ordered a half dozen replacement ones.
If the GMS is new, then this sounds like a normal new ABC engine.
It will loosen quite a bit after you break it in.
A good trick is to heat the cylinder head with a heat gun before you start the engine for the first time.
This will make it easier for the engine to crank over and it will prevent damage as the engine is already "pre-warmed" when you first start it.
Just run it rich.
The GMS needs about a gallon or two run through it to break it in.
You'll find that it will be a bit difficult to get a good transition initially.
If you use standard tuning techniques, the engine will be a bit "off" once it is broken in. I find that the low end needs to be a bit LEANER than you would normally expect with typical tuning ( remember once broken in ) and the high end needs to be a bit richer than you would expect. Doing so eliminates the transition hesitations.
01-01-2008 | 05:33 PM
#3
RE: TWO separate engine problems
With the ST it sounds like you've stripped the thread in the brass nut.
With the GMS, I gather you mean that with no prop fitted the crankshaft turns easily (at least while the exhaust port is open) but locks up when you fit a prop. If this is the case then tightening the prop is forcing the prop driver back too far on the tapered collet and it's hard up against the crankcase. This may be because (if the engine is new) the crankshaft isn't seated in the bearings fully forward or it's been in a crash that's pushed the crankshaft back. Another possibility is that the prop driver/collet is too loose a fit and seats too far back. BTW, this locking against the crankcase is fairly common on the ST's because their prop driver is cast, not machined from bar stock, and a crash or overtightening the prop can crack them.
With the GMS, I gather you mean that with no prop fitted the crankshaft turns easily (at least while the exhaust port is open) but locks up when you fit a prop. If this is the case then tightening the prop is forcing the prop driver back too far on the tapered collet and it's hard up against the crankcase. This may be because (if the engine is new) the crankshaft isn't seated in the bearings fully forward or it's been in a crash that's pushed the crankshaft back. Another possibility is that the prop driver/collet is too loose a fit and seats too far back. BTW, this locking against the crankcase is fairly common on the ST's because their prop driver is cast, not machined from bar stock, and a crash or overtightening the prop can crack them.
01-01-2008 | 08:20 PM
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From: Pittsfield,
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RE: TWO separate engine problems
ORIGINAL: downunder
With the ST it sounds like you've stripped the thread in the brass nut.
With the ST it sounds like you've stripped the thread in the brass nut.
With the GMS, I gather you mean that with no prop fitted the crankshaft turns easily (at least while the exhaust port is open)
If this is the case then tightening the prop is forcing the prop driver back too far on the tapered collet and it's hard up against the crankcase.
This may be because (if the engine is new) the crankshaft isn't seated in the bearings fully forward or it's been in a crash that's pushed the crankshaft back.
Another possibility is that the prop driver/collet is too loose a fit and seats too far back.
BTW, this locking against the crankcase is fairly common on the ST's because their prop driver is cast, not machined from bar stock, and a crash or overtightening the prop can crack them.
SO . . . what could be causing it as explained?
01-01-2008 | 08:40 PM
#5
RE: TWO separate engine problems
Take the GMS to any LHS or to your new planned instructor and have them/him give an opinion. Hard to tell without a close look at the engine. Pics will NOT help, need to feel how it's working.
The Tiger part will most likely be metric so choose a replacement carefully.
The Tiger part will most likely be metric so choose a replacement carefully.
01-01-2008 | 08:45 PM
#6
RE: TWO separate engine problems
Assuming this is your engine http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&P=SM&I=LXFV71
then http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXFW35&P=Z should be the part you need. Your local LHS should be able to get this for you without the shipping charges.
then http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXFW35&P=Z should be the part you need. Your local LHS should be able to get this for you without the shipping charges.
01-01-2008 | 08:49 PM
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From: Pittsfield,
MA
RE: TWO separate engine problems
GMS: Won't even move now, not even by hand. The case is totally frozen now. Isn't the hub at the end of the crankcase, where the prop rest against, supposed to come off? Will not turn now or come off.
Sounds like to fix this engine could pay to get a new one, but no more GMS's for me. The same thing happened to another engine. Never did repair it and now who knows where that one is. Waste of money, both engines were brand new, never used.
Yes bruce, exactly what I need.
Sounds like to fix this engine could pay to get a new one, but no more GMS's for me. The same thing happened to another engine. Never did repair it and now who knows where that one is. Waste of money, both engines were brand new, never used.
ORIGINAL: bruce88123
Assuming this is your engine http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&P=SM&I=LXFV71
then http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXFW35&P=Z should be the part you need. Your local LHS should be able to get this for you without the shipping charges.
Assuming this is your engine http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&P=SM&I=LXFV71
then http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXFW35&P=Z should be the part you need. Your local LHS should be able to get this for you without the shipping charges.
01-01-2008 | 09:02 PM
#8
RE: TWO separate engine problems
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXEGT6&P=Z is the drive hub and cone. The cone is what hold the hub on the shaft and it can be VERY hard to release. It often can require a puller tool.
IMO you are over your head with this engine Steve. Find a place to ship it to and do so. Contact Tower (whether you got it there or not) and make repair inquiries. Be sure to mention that it has never been run (if true).
IMO you are over your head with this engine Steve. Find a place to ship it to and do so. Contact Tower (whether you got it there or not) and make repair inquiries. Be sure to mention that it has never been run (if true).
01-01-2008 | 10:05 PM
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From: Poolesville, MD
RE: TWO separate engine problems
Do this before you send it out.
Put the prop back on the GMS engine.
Remove the glow plug and put a drop or two of fuel into the cylinder. Leave the glow plug off.
Now heat the cylinder head until it is almost too hot to touch with a heat gun.
Crank it over.
It SHOULD crank with some resistance.
Everything you've described sounds like every ABC GMS engine I've owned. ( and one siezed ringed one that after heating it has run just fine ever since... )
It is difficult to turn it over by hand when new, so much so that typically it feels that if you exert any more force you'll break something.
The prop is the only way to get enough leverage to turn it by hand at first.
Once it's run it will become far less resistant.
If you can crank it over when hot, try to start it.
Put the prop back on the GMS engine.
Remove the glow plug and put a drop or two of fuel into the cylinder. Leave the glow plug off.
Now heat the cylinder head until it is almost too hot to touch with a heat gun.
Crank it over.
It SHOULD crank with some resistance.
Everything you've described sounds like every ABC GMS engine I've owned. ( and one siezed ringed one that after heating it has run just fine ever since... )
It is difficult to turn it over by hand when new, so much so that typically it feels that if you exert any more force you'll break something.
The prop is the only way to get enough leverage to turn it by hand at first.
Once it's run it will become far less resistant.
If you can crank it over when hot, try to start it.
01-01-2008 | 10:47 PM
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RE: TWO separate engine problems
Steve,
In laymens terms the cylinder in that particular engine is larger daimeter at the bottom
than the top. when the piston travels up it gets tighter. in some of these engines the piston
can actually become caught in the pinch (the tightest part of the cylinder) heating the engine
with a heat gun will cause the cylinder to expand and allow the piston to unstick. Like opjose
said when the motor runs for a while the tightness will decrease. I have had RC buggy engines
that were pinched so tight that after getting stuck I would have to remove the head and push
the piston back down with a wooden dowel covered with rubber tubing.
In laymens terms the cylinder in that particular engine is larger daimeter at the bottom
than the top. when the piston travels up it gets tighter. in some of these engines the piston
can actually become caught in the pinch (the tightest part of the cylinder) heating the engine
with a heat gun will cause the cylinder to expand and allow the piston to unstick. Like opjose
said when the motor runs for a while the tightness will decrease. I have had RC buggy engines
that were pinched so tight that after getting stuck I would have to remove the head and push
the piston back down with a wooden dowel covered with rubber tubing.
01-02-2008 | 08:37 AM
#12
My Feedback: (1)
RE: TWO separate engine problems
SHD you need to reread the posts by opjose very carefully. It is becoming obvious that the GMS is your first ABC or ABN engine. All modern ABC/ABN engines are hard to turn over by hand in some cases just about impossible. You cannot expect your engine to turn over like you Super Tiger a ringed engine these are untappered and are operated differently.
'
Stop turning your engine over dry and by hand. Put it in an airplane or 'good' test stand and start it with a starter and most vital of all get someone knowledgeable to walk you through good operating methods and tunning steps. You are going to experiance further major frustration if you don.t get some help.
John
'
Stop turning your engine over dry and by hand. Put it in an airplane or 'good' test stand and start it with a starter and most vital of all get someone knowledgeable to walk you through good operating methods and tunning steps. You are going to experiance further major frustration if you don.t get some help.
John
01-02-2008 | 11:54 AM
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From: Poolesville, MD
RE: TWO separate engine problems
Once you get the GMS running right, you'll love it.
It's a strong reliable engine, but there are a few things you need to be aware of...
e.g.
- The cap screws WILL come loose after the first few runs. They'll need tightening.
- You need to be careful with those cardboard "rings" they use on the fittings, these will cause the fitting to loosen or leak over time. Check them periodically and be careful NOT to overtighten as they are quite easy to strip.
- If you have the remote high speed needle, check it too for looseness, and watch for a hairline crack on the provided HS to carb line... I'd replace it ASAP with other tubing.
- Make sure you clamp the carb DOWN hard when you screw it in place to form a good seal.
- If running inverted, a longer "F" plug is a good idea.
- Try to get a temperature meter and watch the head temp. You'll have the engine adecuately tuned if it hits around 280F or so on the ground uncovered, but does NOT go to say 380-400F which is too hot.
- The engine doesn't really come into it's own until you've run a couple of gallons through it.
- Keep your first flights around 5 minutes as typically you'll have the engine so rich that it will run out of fuel VERY quickly. It may surprise you how fast it uses fuel until it is tuned well. Once tuned it does well with fuel consumption.
It's a strong reliable engine, but there are a few things you need to be aware of...
e.g.
- The cap screws WILL come loose after the first few runs. They'll need tightening.
- You need to be careful with those cardboard "rings" they use on the fittings, these will cause the fitting to loosen or leak over time. Check them periodically and be careful NOT to overtighten as they are quite easy to strip.
- If you have the remote high speed needle, check it too for looseness, and watch for a hairline crack on the provided HS to carb line... I'd replace it ASAP with other tubing.
- Make sure you clamp the carb DOWN hard when you screw it in place to form a good seal.
- If running inverted, a longer "F" plug is a good idea.
- Try to get a temperature meter and watch the head temp. You'll have the engine adecuately tuned if it hits around 280F or so on the ground uncovered, but does NOT go to say 380-400F which is too hot.
- The engine doesn't really come into it's own until you've run a couple of gallons through it.
- Keep your first flights around 5 minutes as typically you'll have the engine so rich that it will run out of fuel VERY quickly. It may surprise you how fast it uses fuel until it is tuned well. Once tuned it does well with fuel consumption.
01-02-2008 | 12:30 PM
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From: Pittsfield,
MA
RE: TWO separate engine problems
ORIGINAL: opjose
Once you get the GMS running right, you'll love it.
It's a strong reliable engine, but there are a few things you need to be aware of...
e.g.
- The cap screws WILL come loose after the first few runs. They'll need tightening.
- You need to be careful with those cardboard "rings" they use on the fittings, these will cause the fitting to loosen or leak over time. Check them periodically and be careful NOT to overtighten as they are quite easy to strip.
- If you have the remote high speed needle, check it too for looseness, and watch for a hairline crack on the provided HS to carb line... I'd replace it ASAP with other tubing.
- Make sure you clamp the carb DOWN hard when you screw it in place to form a good seal.
- If running inverted, a longer "F" plug is a good idea.
- Try to get a temperature meter and watch the head temp. You'll have the engine adecuately tuned if it hits around 280F or so on the ground uncovered, but does NOT go to say 380-400F which is too hot.
- The engine doesn't really come into it's own until you've run a couple of gallons through it.
- Keep your first flights around 5 minutes as typically you'll have the engine so rich that it will run out of fuel VERY quickly. It may surprise you how fast it uses fuel until it is tuned well. Once tuned it does well with fuel consumption.
Once you get the GMS running right, you'll love it.
It's a strong reliable engine, but there are a few things you need to be aware of...
e.g.
- The cap screws WILL come loose after the first few runs. They'll need tightening.
- You need to be careful with those cardboard "rings" they use on the fittings, these will cause the fitting to loosen or leak over time. Check them periodically and be careful NOT to overtighten as they are quite easy to strip.
- If you have the remote high speed needle, check it too for looseness, and watch for a hairline crack on the provided HS to carb line... I'd replace it ASAP with other tubing.
- Make sure you clamp the carb DOWN hard when you screw it in place to form a good seal.
- If running inverted, a longer "F" plug is a good idea.
- Try to get a temperature meter and watch the head temp. You'll have the engine adecuately tuned if it hits around 280F or so on the ground uncovered, but does NOT go to say 380-400F which is too hot.
- The engine doesn't really come into it's own until you've run a couple of gallons through it.
- Keep your first flights around 5 minutes as typically you'll have the engine so rich that it will run out of fuel VERY quickly. It may surprise you how fast it uses fuel until it is tuned well. Once tuned it does well with fuel consumption.
01-02-2008 | 12:36 PM
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From: Poolesville, MD
RE: TWO separate engine problems
ORIGINAL: shd3920
Sounds like a bit of work to simply get flying. I think it would be best to trade the engine in or otherwise get rid of it and get something simplier to run, like an O.S or another Super Tigre
Sounds like a bit of work to simply get flying. I think it would be best to trade the engine in or otherwise get rid of it and get something simplier to run, like an O.S or another Super Tigre
You should do no different with an O.S. or an ST. If anything I find that the SuperTigre's while good, require a bit more work than the GMS.
You should be checking and doing the above with any engine.
01-02-2008 | 12:37 PM
#17
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My Feedback: (9)
RE: TWO separate engine problems
ORIGINAL: shd3920
Sounds like a bit of work to simply get flying. I think it would be best to trade the engine in or otherwise get rid of it and get something simplier to run, like an O.S or another Super Tigre
ORIGINAL: opjose
Once you get the GMS running right, you'll love it.
It's a strong reliable engine, but there are a few things you need to be aware of...
e.g.
- The cap screws WILL come loose after the first few runs. They'll need tightening.
- You need to be careful with those cardboard "rings" they use on the fittings, these will cause the fitting to loosen or leak over time. Check them periodically and be careful NOT to overtighten as they are quite easy to strip.
- If you have the remote high speed needle, check it too for looseness, and watch for a hairline crack on the provided HS to carb line... I'd replace it ASAP with other tubing.
- Make sure you clamp the carb DOWN hard when you screw it in place to form a good seal.
- If running inverted, a longer "F" plug is a good idea.
- Try to get a temperature meter and watch the head temp. You'll have the engine adecuately tuned if it hits around 280F or so on the ground uncovered, but does NOT go to say 380-400F which is too hot.
- The engine doesn't really come into it's own until you've run a couple of gallons through it.
- Keep your first flights around 5 minutes as typically you'll have the engine so rich that it will run out of fuel VERY quickly. It may surprise you how fast it uses fuel until it is tuned well. Once tuned it does well with fuel consumption.
Once you get the GMS running right, you'll love it.
It's a strong reliable engine, but there are a few things you need to be aware of...
e.g.
- The cap screws WILL come loose after the first few runs. They'll need tightening.
- You need to be careful with those cardboard "rings" they use on the fittings, these will cause the fitting to loosen or leak over time. Check them periodically and be careful NOT to overtighten as they are quite easy to strip.
- If you have the remote high speed needle, check it too for looseness, and watch for a hairline crack on the provided HS to carb line... I'd replace it ASAP with other tubing.
- Make sure you clamp the carb DOWN hard when you screw it in place to form a good seal.
- If running inverted, a longer "F" plug is a good idea.
- Try to get a temperature meter and watch the head temp. You'll have the engine adecuately tuned if it hits around 280F or so on the ground uncovered, but does NOT go to say 380-400F which is too hot.
- The engine doesn't really come into it's own until you've run a couple of gallons through it.
- Keep your first flights around 5 minutes as typically you'll have the engine so rich that it will run out of fuel VERY quickly. It may surprise you how fast it uses fuel until it is tuned well. Once tuned it does well with fuel consumption.
Ken
01-02-2008 | 01:39 PM
#19
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From: Pittsfield,
MA
RE: TWO separate engine problems
Will simply heating the area with heat gun work or does it really need to be started to loosen it up?
I am worried about heating it up with a heat gun with fuel in it, I'm liable to blow it up 
ORIGINAL: opjose
Do this before you send it out.
Put the prop back on the GMS engine.
Remove the glow plug and put a drop or two of fuel into the cylinder. Leave the glow plug off.
Now heat the cylinder head until it is almost too hot to touch with a heat gun.
Crank it over.
Do this before you send it out.
Put the prop back on the GMS engine.
Remove the glow plug and put a drop or two of fuel into the cylinder. Leave the glow plug off.
Now heat the cylinder head until it is almost too hot to touch with a heat gun.
Crank it over.
01-02-2008 | 01:46 PM
#20
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From: Poolesville, MD
RE: TWO separate engine problems
ORIGINAL: shd3920
I am worried about heating it up with a heat gun with fuel in it, I'm liable to blow it up
I am worried about heating it up with a heat gun with fuel in it, I'm liable to blow it up
All you are going to do is lightly lubricate it with a drop or two of fuel. That's it.
The when you heat it with the heat gun it will be MUCH MUCH cooler than it will ever get when it is running.
01-02-2008 | 01:52 PM
#21
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From: Pittsfield,
MA
RE: TWO separate engine problems
OK got yah, thank you all for your help and suggestions. How should I store it until Spring when I can do that? So as not to cause more damage. Should I put a drop of running oil anywhere on it until Spring?
01-02-2008 | 01:54 PM
#22
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My Feedback: (9)
RE: TWO separate engine problems
Steve,
Since you haven't ran the engine yet you can store just like it is. Nothing will happen to it. Until you run the engine it's no different than if it's sitting in the box in some warehouse being stored. You'll be fine.
Ken
Since you haven't ran the engine yet you can store just like it is. Nothing will happen to it. Until you run the engine it's no different than if it's sitting in the box in some warehouse being stored. You'll be fine.
Ken
01-02-2008 | 01:59 PM
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From: Poolesville, MD
RE: TWO separate engine problems
shd3920:
If you've already removed it from the box ( which it sounds like you have. )... it would not hurt to put a few drops of after-run oil into it before you put it away... preferably into a plastic bag, etc. that will help keep moisture out.
If you've already removed it from the box ( which it sounds like you have. )... it would not hurt to put a few drops of after-run oil into it before you put it away... preferably into a plastic bag, etc. that will help keep moisture out.
01-02-2008 | 11:52 PM
#24
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From: Pittsfield,
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RE: TWO separate engine problems
As I stated earlier I don't have any fuel but I wanted to try something so I removed the spark plug as suggested by opjose, put the propellor back on and heated the cylinder with my heat gun. Right away after the first heating the cylinder/piston loosened right up. I heated the cylinder up about five consecutive times for about two minutes each time and the action improved a bit better after each heating.
Occassionally there will be a quick click noise just before the prop turns over, and when that happens I heat the cylinder up again and the click goes away.
I know it will take a lot longer doing it by hand this way and I will continue with it until I can run it, is there a possibility that a drop of after-run oil in the cylinder instead of fuel will help break it in faster? I will not be able to get fuel until Spring, but I would like to continue breaking the engine in til then.
Thank you for that suggestion, worked like a charm.
Occassionally there will be a quick click noise just before the prop turns over, and when that happens I heat the cylinder up again and the click goes away.
I know it will take a lot longer doing it by hand this way and I will continue with it until I can run it, is there a possibility that a drop of after-run oil in the cylinder instead of fuel will help break it in faster? I will not be able to get fuel until Spring, but I would like to continue breaking the engine in til then.
Thank you for that suggestion, worked like a charm.
01-03-2008 | 06:16 AM
#25
My Feedback: (1)
RE: TWO separate engine problems
I would highly suggest you stop turning the engine over by hand warmed or not. That can and will damage an engine. That clicking noise is normal. All ABC and ABN engines need to be run and brought up to operationg temperature quickly on the very first run so the tapered top of the sleeve can expand to normal running operating clearances right away for break in. Constant manual turning even with heating will only serve to damage the sleeve/piston fit.
Using heat for an intial start is fine. Thereafter it is not neccessary with the majority of engines, In fact its not a neccessity in most cases.
The simple answer to your original question there is nothing wrong with your engine but if you continue as you are then there probably will be. Fact: All modern ABC, ABN engines when new use tappered bores and if they do not 'click' when turned over or feel as thought they are locking then in fact they are defective.
Give your new engine a break stop cold hand turning this engine heat or not or it will never be up to its full potential, power or user friendliness.
John
Using heat for an intial start is fine. Thereafter it is not neccessary with the majority of engines, In fact its not a neccessity in most cases.
The simple answer to your original question there is nothing wrong with your engine but if you continue as you are then there probably will be. Fact: All modern ABC, ABN engines when new use tappered bores and if they do not 'click' when turned over or feel as thought they are locking then in fact they are defective.
Give your new engine a break stop cold hand turning this engine heat or not or it will never be up to its full potential, power or user friendliness.
John
