One, a club should know who is flying at there field and demand AMA insurance to do so. If someone is flying there without permission and without AMA, then that person should be held acountable for any damage done to property. Two, if someone is teaching someone else to fly they should make sure that person has AMA insurance, if not, it is on there head for damages inflicted to property. If they do not have insurance, then let them know what it is, why they need it, and tell them as soon as they get it they will be instructed. Three, if both instructor and student have insurance, then they are covered anyway and don't need aditional insurance. Four, if someone wants to profit over teaching a HOBBY, they should buy land and insure it themselves. Clubs should not allow people to accept money for this service. Now I could see were a club would accept a small payment from new members that do not have a plane yet. They could use the money to buy a plane for the club to use as a trainer and also use the money to fuel and upkeep the trainer.

The only snag for clubs would be letting non insured audiance members fly during fun flys, to promote the hobby. Maybe the AMA could offer an insurance to clubs for this.

Certainly if an instructor gets paid and uses club facilities the club should be compensated.

I think there are plenty of business models out there that imply that paid instruction might be workable. Skiing, golf, tennis, all have "private lessons".

I doubt if anyone is going to get rich offering paid instruction. And, if the club suddenly noticed they had no new members in three years that would be a big hint.

However, I think there IS a market for it. There are many people (like me last year) who want to get in the hobby, DON'T think paying club dues and AMA dues is that big an imposition, and for many reasons would prefer a dedicated instructor in return for some amount of money.

I have to say in regards to Joe Emmons that a flat fee would need some sort of cap, there's a guy in our club who has been training for almost three years and still can't land.

Also, "lending" G2 would almost certainly violate the licensing agreement since you can play G2 without the CD. Help with FMS would be reasonable though...

GB

There's a handful of schools out there that offer paid flight instruction. For most of them, you travel to their facility and train for a week, soloing in the process. There aren't very many of them, which is due in large part to their being well over the market price for instruction.

One of the reasons why this hobby is so great is the hobbiests themselves.

Maybe it's because of the club that I joined, but the mebers here have been extremely helpful.

I was awe struck. Free help with engine advice, great tips on aircraft construction, and free flying lessons. None of them expected anything in return.

Try that with golf, boating, and almost any other hobby!

Sometimes I have to respectfully decline help at the field when I show up with my trainer.

When I have more flying years under my belt, I hope my payment back to the club will be in training at least 2 new members to fly.

Let's keep the cycle going. If you didn't get as good of help as I got, once you are able to, help out someone new anyway.

It's all about attitude.

Let's use our good attitudes to make the polling question of this thread a redundant one.

What is this doing in beginners, Same song same people just like a club meeting!!! Beginners in back seen not heard.
SORRY Why is it alway MY field no OUR FIELD.

I was taught for free, using the old-school "transmitter toss" method

I asked the guy twice, what I owed him, and he said I had to pass it on.
I've done that. I've taught several to fly, and never dreamed of charging for it.

I don't really have a problem with someone taking pay for training students,
if they had to pay for their training when they were learning it themselves

I just don't think it has a place at the club level, and I don't think AMA should insure.
Those who want to make a business out of it, should provide their own location,
or at the very least, their own liability insurance for their little business venture.
I feel like they should also be providing the trainer planes, in those cases.
Maybe a package deal, where students pay so much per session, up to a certain limit,
and after you reach that limit, or solo and pay the difference, you get the airplane too.
(Folks who try it once or twice aren't out much, and folks that stick it out have something to fly.)
If they want to use a club field, perhaps the club should charge them per session
or per month to do so. (Though these guys probably won't like that at all)


I'm sure there's a working business model out there... but I still don't like the idea
of seeing clubs overrun with "paid-only" instructors. It'll take so much away


Not that my opinion matters any, of course. I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

or a matter of money.

Those that feel teaching others is a hassel and think they need to get paid for their time. Need not to teach.

I like that pass it on comment. Think I will start using that.

Nukes said:
"Those that feel teaching others is a hassel and think they need to get paid for their time. Need not to teach."

I think Nukes hit the nail on the head! My instructor has said several times that he enjoys taking someone up on the buddy box as much as flying his own planes.

I was thinking charging for the lessons would be a way to pay for training equipment. Ideally the instructor could have a trainer and equipment and not worry about the quality of the student's equipment, buddy box compatibility, proper construction/setup etc. I would think teaching on a seasoned, broken in, tried-and-tested trainer would be easier on both student and teacher for the early flights. I think (hope) there are enough people out there who are willing to spend a couple hours at the field with a newbie for free that I don't see any reason to pay the instructor for their time.

Additionally, if someone sees lessons for $100 or whatever as a way to try this hobby without blowing the $400 or so right off for a trainer/radio/engine/field equip. perhaps we can get even more people hooked on this great hobby.

As for G2 licensing, that is a good point. I know it can be used without the CD, but it doesn't work so well without the controller. I'm sure they would scream if they found out a club was getting any money for lending it though. FMS or other may be the best route here.

Since it appears that this has already been presented to the AMA, My persoanl feelings are that those who do not wish this to become a reality should send an email to their district Representatives , express your opinions with the ones who will be deciding , In my case thats what Im doing !!!

Highlander

The club I fly at has a "Club Trainer" We spent club money to aquire a reliable, always ready to fly plane for anyone who wants to try it out.
We also have 3 "Introductory Pilot" instructors that are covered by the AMA to take up a person that doesnt have AMA insurance.

The club trainer stays at my house and is always ready to go.
It goes to events, fly-ins and anywhere we can possible generate new members.


This is ALWAYS done on a no charge basis and will ALWAYS remain that way.

New members are always given a list of the instructors who are all willing to help.

The hobby needs dedicated, helpful instructors not people looking to make a buck.

Wayne says;

"The hobby needs dedicated, helpful instructors not people looking to make a buck."

I say;

I'm looking for the manufacturer, the hobby shop, the plane builder who are not looking to make a buck! As a matter of fact, they could just give me the stuff, after all it's just my hobby!

Why is it OK for all the above to make a buck, but not the instructor?

Both of these threads started with a paid instructor as an option, not mandatory. You all seem to have lost sight of that.

And I'll bet most of the ones that would fight the paid instructor program are the ones that don't teach others!

Dan

I teach A LOT and will always oppose a pay for instruction program.

Yes, the hobby shop, the manufacturers, the plane builders (commercial) all make a buck so does that make it right to charge for instruction?
How about telling a new flyer that the instruction is free because they already had to pay enough to get into the hobby.

I look at is as I am helping a new friend to enjoy a hobby that I personally love.

I have been instruction people to fly since I was a teengager (34 now) and I dont care whether they come out with an ARF, a Kit they built or one they bought a garage sale.

The dedication they will grow to have with the hobby will come from good friends that they share the hobby with.
If they leave the hobby after a year.... So what.
People find other things to do to occupy their free time.

Will that stop me from teaching new people after that?
Nope!

What better place to place this type of poll since Beginners are the ones needing the help.

C_watkins sounds to me like the "free" instruction you so fondly remember came with a price just not a monetry one.

The whole question of providing optional paid instruction seems to really generate a lot of debate.

The "old-timers" talk of responisibility dedication to the hobby and commitment as reasons why anyone dreaming of charging for instruction should be branded a greedy selfish person, yet the same old timers complian when the newbie shows up with an RTF or ARF and doesn't have the dedication to the hobby that they should. Then they complian if the newbie drops out after a season.

The newbies complian about the shortage of instructors.
Lack of individual learning and short flight sessions.

If in fact there is a shortage of voluntary flight instructors and paid instructions are not an option how does one learn to fly?

It seems to me that inorder to increase our numbers we need to find a method that allows newcommers to try this out without having to live up to someone elses expectations. We all say that our common goal should be to increase R/C avaition awareness yet something as common as paid instruction is frowned upon.

AS I stated above

IFLYJ3, as an example, do not need to teach. Want to make money? Open a hobby shop. Just my 2 cents.

Life is cheap, everything seems to come with a price tag, But would you charge your children to learn those life lessons that you spent so much time and money learning from your past mistakes. I see this hobby as one big family. And we should voluntarily pass "Training" on to others , as you would pass your lifes knowledge on to your children.

I instruct because I remember what it was like when I was learning, and because I enjoy it. There weren't enough quality instrutors around when I was learning where I was at the time.

There are a lot more people here in this part of Maryland, multiple fields with in a 30min drive, each with hundreds of members (a fair bit of overlapping memberships) and lots of instructors. But I know that many parts of the country are not like this area.

I don't have a problem with someone running a paid instruction program. I'd expect a higher quality learning experience from someone taking money of course. If they don't deliver something for the money, they won't be in buisness that long.

I can't possibly see "professional" instrutors hurting anything. Those of us who do it for free will continue to do exactly that. So people who want "free" instruction can still get it where they can get it now. Maybe the paid guys will give enough added value to attract students, if they do, I don't see a problem sharing a field with a paid service.

And, who knows, maybe allowing paid instrutors will bring better instrution to areas that have limited resources at the moment.

OK Nukes, fair enough. I'll expect to see you on Tuesday night at our field instructing. Out of 180 members, no one, NO ONE will head up the program this year.

Over the last 41 years of R/C I've done my share and the ones that I told that the only thing they owed me was to teach others haven't paid anything back yet!

That, my friend, is a shame. And does not say much for your club.

The question is Why?

If I was closer I would love to come fly with you.

J3, no, because I paid for my flight training, and I make a living doing it (and the Beaver thing). I did not pay for my RC instruction, no one is trying to make a living doing it (at least in my area), and it is something I enjoy. Those reasons are enough for me to hope that no one will pay for RC instruction.

Let's look at it a different way. A 172 rents for 100 per hour and instructor fee is 25 on top of that. So the instructor fee is 20% of the operating cost. If we transfer that to RC, the instructor fee will be something like 15 cents per flight. Full size instruction fees are only a small percentage of the total cost, and you know that. Besides, I give instruction to my friends for free, and at the field it doesn't take much for me to take an hour or two out of my day to help the beginners.

Now J3, I ask, if you had the choice between paying some guy at the field to learn to fly your toy plane or not paying some guy at the field to learn to fly your toy plane, which option would you choose? We already went over the FACT that paid instructors are not necessarily better.

I am just now beginning and have not had any lessons yet other than one flight on a buddy box at "newbies day". The reason I do not have any lessons yet is that the club near me has free lessons on Thursday night. I am involved with other activites on thursday nights and can not make it to lessons. I would love to have the option of paid lessons because I would then expect to be able to schedule my lesson on some other night or weekends. I would be able to learn much quicker. I have been trying for 6 weeks now to make it on Thursday and am unable. I don't feel comfortable showing up at the field at other times and asking for instruction because they already offer that on Thursdays.

I think that paid instructors are not needed at all, What is needed needed is for clubs to adopt some sort of training program for beginners, if anything, for safety's sake. Some senior members at my field need to go back on the buddy box. We've had some close calls due to people not knowing what to do when things go wrong, which is the most dangerous part of flying both RC and full scale. I will say that this the hardest to teach someone though.

I guess the reality of this all boils down to the "supply and demand" formula. If the supply of instructors willing to give lessons for free is always greater than the demand for lessons, then anyone trying to charge for lessons better have something good to offer. If the hobby skyrockets and there are not enough free instructors to go around, perhaps some people will be able to make a few bucks instructing... for better or worse...

As for me, if I ever get to the point where I am comfortable enough with a plane, and someone wants me to be an instructor, I will do it for free. Doing my part to keep the supply of free instructors up. I will even offer any appropriate equipment I have for use, also for free.

The problem I see with the way things are now is the order of things. Currently I see alot of people following this order:

1. Interest in the hobby
2. Buy a plane/equipment
3. (optional) Try to fly
3b. fix broken plane OR quit hobby out of frustration
4. find a club/instructor
4b. (optional) buy different equipment when the instructor tells you what you have is inappropriate for a beginner/incompatible with what they have (buddy box... this almost happened to me)
5. learn how to fly

This would seem to be a better progression:

1. Interest in the hobby
2. find a club/instructor
3. learn how to fly
4. buy equipment based on instructors recommendation


How to bring this about? It's probably impossible. It would take a very proactive approach on the part of the club to get to the newbie before the hobby shop (who very desperately wants to sell them a plane.) That's my ideal though. It is what I would recommend if someone asked me today.

Jon

That's the problem then. Go talk to them and explain your position. I do instruction every time I go out, not just on beginner days. You might be surprised that someone will take the time to meet you during the week, but it happens all the time.

chrisc,

Have you talked to other members about this? I would bet someone would be happy to fly with you on another day. The reason they set aside a day for new people is probable so the new people can get as much airtime and attention as possible and also giving a day will let new people know that there is help for them, if they want it. Doesn't mean that is the only night. Ask I bet you will be surprised.

Not that I believe that anyone could make a living as a paid instructor. But you are essentially saying that NO SHOULD be allowed to try because thats not the way its been.

Think about that.

20 years ago ARF didn't exist you made a commitment just in building that plane before you even met an instructor that alone servered to weed out the faint of heart or those not sure if this was for them. Today you can go from box to field in a weekend.

This means that many more people can try it simply because the planes are sold pre-made. That means more instructors and maybe even a higher newcommer turnover. These are not neccessairly bad things it just means that todays instructor has to realize that a higher percentage of students are going to drop out. Again I personnaly don't care if there are paid instructors or not. I just don't agree with most of the reasons why there shouldn't be

Interpretation:

I think most established flyers, and most of the people who don't "need" instruction are going to vote "heck no".

However, since you are getting some yes votes, that would indicate there is interest in this.

Will paid instruction replace club training nights, I doubt it. Its not even a good idea, some people can't or won't afford paying anything and no one wants to restrict them from joining the hobby. We certainly don't want to ENCOURAGE people to try flying a glow trainer on their own, at least not anywhere near me.

Might there be a substantial group that might pay for instruction? I think so. Probably not enough to open flying schools in every city across the country, but maybe enough for a club to earn some extra $$$$ providing them.

The key is that the instruction be worth the price. So things like reputation, providing equipment, etc. would be very important.

I still think that for a club to offer "private lessons" might be attractive to many people. I.e., those who can afford it, those who might be shy (I was), those who can't make particular nights, etc..