If you're using sluggish to mean higher inertial moment, then this is not a desireable trait, it contributes to PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation), a problem most students struggle with on a well behaved aircraft.

Heavy and sluggish equate to;
- Long takeoffs runs with less tolerance for maneuvering shortly after T.O. (higher stall speed)
- Fast landings (less reaction time) and same inertial problems as mentioned above (but closer to the ground!)

Most attempt to address loading problems with a stronger engine (=more weight = higher stall speed = greater pilot lag = student being metally further behind the plane = heavier impacts = more timid student).

Lighter wing loading is one factor making a better trainer in my books. The 20mph landing speed of the Kadet is much easier on a new pilot's nerves than the 40mph mush/bounce or higher AOA required simply to maintain level flight of a plump bird.

no, the stall speed is quite slow actually, as is its take off speed. a 25-36 is more than enough, none of that American overpowering stuff here.
it has a nice thick aerofoil but is no funfly, when i said sluggish i simply meant how fast it reacts, kinda like a rudder only plane, but thats on low rates, a mate has a 36 and high rates and its a ball.
it is slightly heavier than you "could" build a trainer, BUT! its not as heavy as the standard Hi-boy here with a 36!!! it flys slower, i think its more forgiving, and its more fun after you go solo. Its more ding proof than a Hi-boy too, the only thing a Hi-boy has over it is 3 point UC which i just love to land coz it looks good, spose the Hi-boy can win on looks too, only just.
OH yes, another Prangster pro... you can turn the fuz over to go from a high wing trainer to a low winger

Getting back on topic here (sorry fellas.....), there are some ppl who will just never 'get it' when it comes to flying. A perfect example is a guy I started teaching to fly about 6 months ago. He's got some sort of perspective problem.....can't tell how far the plane is around a turn, when to level wings after a turn, or even when the plane is too close to us! I kept having to take it off him before it flew behind us or even straight into us. I'm not talking about once or twice here either....I mean all the time.

I had given him my simulator and told him to use it daily, but it didn't make any difference. He couldn't even successfully land the sim model. I don't think he ever would have got a handle on it. 3 months of learning and he only managed one successful takeoff without my intervention to stop the plane plowing off the strip or into the pits or something.

On the other hand, one day when I was teaching him, a friend of mine from out of town came out for a look. I handed the buddy tx to him after I took off, let him work out what the controls do and then didn't have to take control off him for 5+ minutes. He'd never flown anything in his life, but didn't have a problem with it at all. Didn't even get the 'coming towards yourself' confusion.

Some ppl will get it, some ppl won't. Just the way it is unfortunately.

mrbonk, would you allow me to expand on your astute observation?

Here's what I've learned at the field and from the many enlightening responses in this thread....(paraphrasing mrbonk's synopsis):

Some people get it. Some people get it a little. Some people don't get it. Some people will never get it.

Thanks to all you wonderful instructors that selflessly give their time to the last three.

I can tell you, they appreciate it whether they learn to fly, or not.

(thank you mbonk for bringing that up!)

I have one that beet them all!!!!!!!!
Brings plane and radio to field , Thats all. Doesn"t know what else he needs. HaHa just getting started doesn't want to spend to much. Wants to use your box then he needs a gallon of fuel that he can't pay for. You could not believe he's not that young and makes good money, there is no excuse!

Yep.....perfectly well summarised

I don't know about other guys who teach ppl to fly, but I get so disappointed when I strike someone who just isn't going to get it. Not for myself though, but for the dude who's never going to get that thrill of going solo.

The guy I mentioned in my above post just won't get there. He simply doesn't 'have it'. Which is an absolute shame, because he *really* wants to be able to fly. I have no idea what to do with him, given the simulator didn't help him at all. We can't just keep going out burning fuel, 'cause that's not achieving anything for him. He's so keen, I just don't have the heart to tell him he should just give it up.

I have spent lots of time with many new people getting into RC planes. Some were full scale pilots and some knew nothing at all about flying RC.

Well so far They all been up in air and are now addicted to the Hobby and now their wives know what it means I call on a weekend. "Time to fly!"

When I learned flying RC planes I did not have a sim but wish i could have. It would have saved lots of time and just be fun to mess around with. At time My instructor had Futaba something and I had a Futaba Attack 4. Bad thing was it did not have the trainer cord option so it was a handful for me to learn.

There was many times that I figured that I would never get the hang of it. Also felt like it was a mistake getting into planes and was about to sell it. Well that goes for helis to when I was learning that also. I think the frustration takes over the hands.

They way I learned and have showed others was by doing the radio swapping. I take it off get in air and hand radio to them. If in trouble I get it back and recover. It is mostly because none of us have compatible radios.

Well there is more to it than just handing over radio. First off We power up the radio and plane. Do the regular checks on a new plane. Looking over it first real good. Next with plane on move the say elevator up and down and explain what it does. Also what it does if you hold it there of let go. I do this throughout all the control surfaces and stress that once stick is let go the plane stays that way. It becomes important later on.

Then before we even get in air I explain to them that I will hand controller over to them. And no matter what it does or look like it will do to not move stick until I say " pull up, down a little, bank left , bank right" I make sure they understand to do just that and only one move at a time and not try to pull the stick in corner elevator aileron.

Then we crank plane up I get it in air set the trims and make sure all is a thumbs up. Then make slow circles and talk the whole time what I am doing and let them see the sticks and what it does to plane. Sometimes they ask "what if you pull back to far?" or what if it rolls upside down?" I simply show them what it does and how the plane reacts.

I make my wide circles in air and explain that after each turn you need to level off wings. And that is it important to or it will start to dip off to one side and loose altitude. Then I show how it does when I hold in a turn to long.

I found the easiest way to make first time turns for them is to say " okay bank left a little" make them know not to yank stick but mover very little. As they bank left and it is in good spot I say "let go of stick or let it return back to center." Then " pull back a little" to pull plane around the turn. Then after turn is made now level the plane out so it continues to go in that direction. So I would say if they turning left after turn I would say " now level wings, give some right until wings level and back off stick " Then let it fly that direction for a little until time to turn again. Then repeat the same process by calling out each stick movement. "bank left, elevator to continue turn, then level off wings back to right." over and over until they see how it reacts in air what what stick does.

After a few flights like that they start to get an idea what what does what to plane and I no longer have to call it out as much. If plane gets into a extreme turn or dive I let them correct it unless its really low and about to smack something.

I found that a lot of times they bank to hard and end up completely sideways or upside down. I tell them " let go of sticks roll right until level again then pullback" reason I say let go of sticks is because if they continue to hold sticks in that position they are in it gets hairy and they over react.

I found that if you stress to only move sticks when you say and not they seem to catch on better. Also have a trust on what you say and not correct on own by fighting it.

I am not sure what works for you guys but I found that this works really well. It has got many people to enjoy their planes instead of be afraid of it or dread getting it air. I know some people that been flying for a while still dread flying that one plane.

This may be an old school way of doing it but it has been working so far. Or maybe I have been lucky so far.

People learn in different ways;

Some are visual learners and learn better by observing what you do. I have them watch my fingers while I fly figure 8s, I show them about visual cues while on the ground (eg. alignment of the tail to the wing, visibility of the gear etc.) by positioning their plane and showing them what it looks like in differnt attitudes.

Others are tactile learners. I use the 2 second input/2 second counter input approach with them and have them practice inputs on the ground before flying.

Some are auditory learners, I have them repeat phrases like "I'm in a left turn, RIGHT to straigten up".

Yet others are conceptual thinkers. They need to understand what's going on. I spend more time on the ground discussing aerodynamics, resulting in success.

I've taught many different types over the years and I strongly believe the only ones that CAN "never get it" are those that lack the desire or have special learning disabilities. Unfortunately many other WILL "never get it", simply because their instructor(s) can't reach them.

I've been teaching R/C for five years now. The only two students out of approximately 50 that I've taught to fly that did not solo was a very smart @$$ spoiled kit that grandpa was throwing money at and an Asian Doctor who drove 110 miles to the field to learn to fly. He started out being a "no matter what I told him he didn't listen" type. Then when his wing snapped in two because he left the spar joiner out of the assembly process, he became the "is all your fault stupid instructor... .you owe me for that... I'll sue you..." never seen him again type. One item I've noticed in this thread is that those who are giving verbal instruction are apparently assuming that the student intuitively knows what "you're in a roll, pull up, get your nose up" mean. Please consider that the person trying to learn to fly may have absolutely no concept of what these words mean. My solution to that problem is to ALWAYS stand on the student's right side. this facilitates the buddy box or being able to reach in for the right stick. Then I only give directions as to which way to move the stick; "right, left pull back, push forward" The only variation to this is if it is clear that the individual doesn't easily remember his left from right then, because I always stand on his right the commands become move the stick toward me for right and move the stick away from me for left.

That's the input. Next the first thing you demonstrate in the air is that just because it's called Remote Control, it doesn't mean you have to be controlling the airplane all of the time. let go of the stick, let the airplane fly itself, and relax a second or two.

And as instructors you MUST remember for those first five flights or so the student's brain will get "task saturated" The student is concentrating harder than most people have done in their entire life. Their brains are going to get TIRED and fast. When it appears they aren't understanding what you're saying it's time to say thats enough for now, land and have them sit down and relax. They'll learn a lot more a lot quicker...

This is a great thread, now that the flaming is over.

I hope im not that bad lol. Ive flown my fighterbird so that gives me a little advantage on the part it know aerodynamics. But i think i will learn quicly. NOT BY MYSELF but i will learn quickly with a intructor. And like the guy ^^^ said about the brain saturated thing. I know what you mean. When i was flying my fighterbird i was so nervous and stresssing i was almost tired after flying. my brain that is.

yes...one must not assume that the student knows what we mean...always ask...(possibly do this on the ground )...like if I say bank right...climb..bank left etcwhat would you think is the correct maneuver?..

I think all of us (before the sim days) recall the jitters we experienced our first flights...heck the first time I took off - (which was MONTHS after my first flight due to continuing plane issues (ie crashes) and lack of funds to repair - I had to hand it back (he kept saying why? you're doing great...) because my knees gave....


on another note...


my 4 year old took off by herself and actually kept it in the air for about 3 minutes (on the sim) the second time i handed her the box...(granted not the smoothest take off and flight...but no worse than many I've seen at the field... )...only thing is she but she says she doesn't want to fly the real thing...but again there PLENTYYY of time for that....


hmm ..maybe we'll have a TOC in Rome....in 2015...

as someone that can do it, its very hard to place your mind back and realise they dont know what your saying and its not easy, my most recent example is prophang, everyone said its easy, eas it hell till it snapped, then wow, easy.
driving instructors get months of training so they can do this, us poor instructors dont, trial and error, we learn as much as the students!

the flip side to student brain over load, is instructor brain fade as the student gets better and you stand there for 10-15 mins with nothing to do. you can solve this by pulling your sticks right over, then letting go of the switch for a second or two keeps the student guessing too LOL

When I first started teaching full scale a long time ago, I met a man who had been trying to learn to fly for years. He had over 150 hours. Everyone at the field he had worked with told him he should quit. I talked him into flying with me. We flew for about a month, and he took his check ride and got his licence. He is a pretty good pilot.

My suggestions to those who are having trouble with a student, suggest to them that they work with someone else. There is a lack of communication that is happening if you can't teach them.

I also had a full scale student that was having problems, He would get frusterated easy. I suggested he think about flying with someone else because he seemed to have a problem with me. He said that wasn't it, and I started seeing improvment on the next flight. He picked things up well after that.

Sometimes, two people don't click. It is not either ones fault, it just doesn't happen. Before you tell someone who really wants to learn to fly that he should give it up, do him the honor of giving him another chance with someone who can give him a different perspective and maybe get him going.

Its not always the students fault if they don't get it, it is sometimes the way the message is being brought. That is not saying the instructor is doing it badly, it just means the student doesn't under stand it and needs to see it a different way.

You would hate to be told to quit, and so would they. Give them every chance you can, and if you run out of patients or ideas, have them work with someone else. If that fails, then there may be a problem.

It seems that the real message is getting lost somewhere in this thread.

People all learn in different ways (actually I think Jim brought it up but anyway).

Teachers also teach in different ways as well. How many of us can look back on our schooling and say that every single one of our teachers were good. It's not that they didn't care it's that they all teach differently.

Like Flyboy said, if you can't get it don't give up (that would be the biggest disservice to our hobby you could) give them a second chance with someone else.

Good points.

We have an unwritten rule at our club that students are not permitted to gravitate to one instructor.
Every instructor has their own specialty/approach/personality and students benefit from multiple perspectives.

IOW, there are often multiple solutions to any pne problem, some solutions work better for some but not for others....

My first prority is getting the student to relax and enjoy the instruction. I then try to build confidence and get them to "open their vision" by getting them to line up their flight parallel with the flightline. This forces them to use their peripheral vision to see their orientation with the respect to the ground. This is something that is most difficult to teach on a simulator.....

I feel my specialty is basic theory. I like my students to understand why a plane flies and what can interfere with that. For example, I teach stall recognition/recovery earlier than most and probably spend more time on it than most instructors. Then I move on to illusions, espc. groundspeed vs. airspeed.

I'm just amazed that no one has commented that "pathetic" is absolutely not an acceptable term for a student.

The reason there is a market for paid instructors is quite simple. Being a good RC pilot simply doesn't make you (automatically) a decent instructor.

I hear lots of chatter about technique and "this works for me", but almost no discussion of confidence, relating to the student, or psychology. Heck, most of the problems discussed with the "pathetic" student are more likely psychological than physical.

Almost every student (I'm 40) would probably admit to being terrified at some point while flying. That's not an easy thing for anotherwise competent adult.

There's also lots of other inhibitors to good instructor / student communication. Background, for instance. I'm a computer consultant, used to very precise, documented instructions. Most of the instructors at our club were mechanics or truck drivers. We tried hard, but had real difficulty communicating.

Given the number of newbies who (in other threads) voiced a willingness to pay for an instructor, I'd think that someone might take a sec and consider that maybe there is more of a problem with instructors than anyone wants to admit.

Most instructor qualification is simply fly this stuff this well. That's cool, but it doesn't mean you can teach it to someone else.

I suggested putting together training materials to my club, but the reaction from the club president and several instructors was unanimous that they thought that was a waste of time.

And don't even get me started on the propensity for the instructors to haze students!!!

My instructor treats learning how to fly like a nice easy stroll through the park. Once he gives his initial instruction, which takes around 5-10 minutes, he starts chatting about anything under the sun and once in awhile, he'll though in a little instruction.
In other words, he makes learning to fly very, very easy.

After awhile, I realized what he was doing. He was taking my mind off of the flying process and allowing me to relax and the trainer to fly. One time I was getting a bit nervous again and flying the plane rather than letting it fly. So he took the tx (no buddy-box) and set the tx on the ground and stepped back. He let it fly and lazy circles completely on it's own. After he calmly went over and picked up the tx and then handed it to me, I was almost totally relaxed. He certainly did make his point.

The other incrediable thing he did was have me look down at the stick as the plane was flying. He did this for about 5 minutes, meaning for 5 minutes I did not look at the plane at all. A spectator who had been there since we took off, said that I flew much better when I didn't see the plane. Again, my instructor made his point. Man, so many people had me believing that learning to fly RC planes was a very difficult thing to do.

Among many other things, I learned to mentally pace myself, meaning that I had no trouble flying for 4 tanks of fuel that day. Each tank lasted 25 minutes (field charger/12oz tank/TT.46, on a Eagle II).
In that time, I learned to takeoff, do figure eights, loops, rolls, and shoot many touch and goes, without stopping the engine.
Not to demean them, but it sure beats the ten minute once a week of stress session with the club instructor. The spectator got a chance to fly and did almost as good as I did, but the difference is, he had never even touched a RC tx before!

nascarjoe

I think that was mentioned early in the thread. You'll note I use the term difficult instead.
Agreed. That's why it's difficult to earn you instructor wings at our club.

I think we have similar backgrounds/experience. MAAC has a training program, I believe it's public, so you should be free to use it: it's on the website

I know a lady who spent over a year trying to fly. She was getting it good, and could fly her Dura-Plane very well up high. Getting close to the ground was petrifying. Her Dura-Plane must have had 2 pounds of epoxy in the wing...it flew like crap. She also had an LT-40 which flew beautiful. She didn't solo on it however because it didn't make it. It was demolished. This increased her fear of the ground even more, and even took the fun out of learning or even trying. She could fly the Dura-Plane or even a combat plane up high, but getting close to the ground...nerves took over. One afternoon we designed and built her an inexpensive trainer. The next day we took it out to the field. I told her not to worry about it at all...just fly it...if it crashes bad enough, we could fix it or build her another one that evening...no big deal since it cost less than $10 to build, and we used the LG and other hardware from the Dura-Plane. She soloed on the first try...perfectly. Flew it like a pro. I asked her what the difference was, and she will be the first to tell you that without the nervousness, it was a piece of cake. So to at least one pilot that I know, taking the fear out of it made all the difference in the world. It's now two years later and she has gone on to become a combat pilot and is just now getting interested in fun-flying. The trainer we built for her is still flying and is one of her favorite airplanes. Removing the fear of crashing was the difference between some one very discouraged and reluctant to keep trying...and someone having the time of her life with this hobby.

Here's a pic of that trainer from a recent Video

Hmmmm......I've just spoken to a friend of his and found out a few things.

First, he's previously admitted that he hardly used the simulator at all.....2 or 3 times at most apparently Geez.....information that would have been handy a few months ago!

Second, apparently he normally wears glasses......pretty high strength too......but he's never worn them at the field. He's only ever worn sunglasses, which don't have prescription lenses. I think that's probably a large part of the perspective problem.

Third, and much more serious, he's just (in the last couple of days) been airlifted to hospital for emergency heart surgery Running around at footy training and suffered a burst aorta (if the information I've got is correct) So, it's unlikely he'll be back for some time (several months at least I'm told).

I should also add that I'm the only person at my club (which is very small......15 members, half of which no longer fly....just turn up for a chat) who is currently prepared to teach. The only 2 other guys (brothers) who are good enough pilots just don't fly regularly enough to do it. One of them is only here every second weekend, but doesn't always fly on that day either. The other works shift work and doesn't fly much at all anymore.

So, when this guy gets back on the road to recovery, we might just have a chance if I can get him to use the sim and to get some prescription lenses for his sunnies

Just want to say Thanks - Big Time. This is a great thread.

I have been instructing for about 10 years or so. And I have found a number of tips and hints here in this thread that I will be using to improve my teaching techniques.

The key I am seeing to being a better instructor is Communication - Communication - Communication. Too often I am saying things to my students that I know what I mean, but thinking back on it, I am not sure that my students did. Also, there is the case where my student is asking a question and I am answering the question I think he is asking, but it may not be the answer to the question that he really thinks he is asking.

Now my $.02 is that the simulators and buddy box have revolutionized the art of RC instruction (I learned in the days of the dinosaurs). The first gives practice in an idealized situation. The second gives training in the real world with all its warts, while letting the instructor step in (usually) before disaster strikes.

Thanks for letting me rant on.

Tattoo, I think you're on to something.

I, too quit my trainer too soon. Much more to flight than take-offs, loops and landings.

Started building big, expensive planes and somehow, it wasn't fun anymore. It was flat scary!

I hadn't really mastered all the basics well and all the club instructors said was "go out and burn some fuel, you'll get it".

Well, I didn't get it and the stress was more than the pleasure, so I dropped out of the hobby 10 years ago.

I'm back now, and my thoughts (which are reinforced in your post) are "build a couple of simple cheap planes and re-learn what you should have 10 years ago". If you auger them in, big deal.

The hobby is better for me now...I just need to fly-the-pants off of those trainers and build a lot of confidence before I bring out the 300 hour/all winter fire-breathers.

They're waiting...but I have learned patience (finally).

Thanks for posting your views, they really helped!

...And mrbonk, I'm so glad you found out more about your student. Wouldn't that be wonderful to succeed with him? Quite a feather in your cap, yes?

And think about him. Solo'ing may be the highpoint in his life.

R/C flight is a major accomplishment for most people....and without you, we would never know the satisfaction.

Again, thanks to all of you great guys for sharing your thoughts and, most of all, for not giving up.

So am I.....could have been under better circumstances though He's apparently going to be ok, but what he's gone through is likely to be life changing.

I just don't know why he didn't tell me these things himself. We could have remedied things a lot sooner! Never mind.

time able to concentrat in the air, how very true, everyone i've sen inculding me has a limit of a bout 3-4 mins the first flight ever, rises to maybe 10 after a while, as long as the tank lasts. what sorts thi is gliding, my mate could fly ok, but would give me his tranny afer 5 mins coz he couldnt think anymore, i had the same untill i flew one day for 2 hours straight coz i learnt not to concentrate. he got there too but its amazing what it can take out of you.
what you said about letting the plane do what it wants to do without you correcting every tiny thing is spot on, even if it takes putting the tranny down to demonstrate.

What Jim and others said about people learning in different ways is so very true. So is the "obvious to us but not them" thing.

A teenager and father show up at the field with a never-flown trainer. The father was just watching, the kid was flying. (I think the father was more nervous than the kid). Everything checked out, so off we went after a bit of ground school.

Two funny things happened.

First, he was having a lot of trouble making smooth turns. I think he wasn't centering the ailerons, he keept rolling tighter in to the turns. I did tell him to center the sticks and stop rolling, but it wasn't sinking in. I had him watch my fingers, it didn't help. So I borowed a page from Ragland and had him set the buddy box down and come stand next to me. I had him put his thumb over mine while I made 3 or 4 turns, then had him go pick up the boddy box again. It made a huge differnece in his turns right there, big improvement.

Second, at one point, I was saying "left, left, left, roll left, give it a little left stick, left... your other left.." then I took over to avoid flying over the pits. He asked me if when I said "left" if I ment the planes left or our left. DOH!. I missed that one in ground school badly. Of course I always meant airplane-left or transmitter-left, but he was trying to figure out if that's what I meant, or if I was trying to get him to go towards our left. So he was spending way too much time and mental effort trying to figure out what to do.