BIG4D

Today at the flying field there were a couple of guys that grounded EVEYONE else. No one would fly while they were up. One of them was a guy with some overpowered 3D plane that didn't know how to take off accept vertically! Then he flew full throtle the entire time he was up.
The other guy had some trainer of some sort. Looked like Nexstar that had been in the dirt a few times and repaired. Italked to him and he swor it "stock" with the Evolution 40. It was the fastest, hottest trainer I have EVERseen. WAY faster than my Eagle 63. Bottom line is when they went up togather, they took up the ENTIREsky! It was just too crowed with them flying. I got so nervous, I put mine down and waited till they were done.
The Nextar was so hot it didn't want to land. He had to make 4 or 5 passes to get it down. Then it HADto be in the grass to get it to slow down. Once when he was on hte ground, one of the club officers checked his AMA to be sure he was "legal" (he was).
Anyway, they were the talk of the pits. Eventually, the guy with the nextar left.
So what is the best way to handle someone like this?Just let them have the field till they are done?

da Rock

Bring the problem up at the next club meeting.

Mr67Stang

This is a touchy subject. I too have grounded myself for others. Typically I do this so I can have the airspace to myself. When I am up with others I fly the pattern with all aerobatics on the downwind leg (Not over the runway). This is a courtesy to other flyers and a rule at our club. Bring up a vote for such a rule at the next meeting and campaign it untill then.

Mr67Stang

Additionally, you can't be upset just because they fly fast. If it's eratic and uncontrolled then it's a problem. Just because you don't like their flying style does not meen they are wrong. Read your own tag line, "HAVE FUN! That's what it's all about."

BIG4D

Well if he, they, were flying patters it would have been one thing, but they were just all over the place. What scared me so bad is they they wouldn't adhear to the standard rotation in the air. Messed me up a few times and it confused the "regular"flyers. I think it should be brought up in the meeting.

KWJ48

At my field I fly mostly 3D, (low,slow and close in) so I usually don't fly while the other members fly, and they don't fly when I fly, so it's a even trade off.
Don't let it get to you. It's just not your style. Personaly I don't care for burning holes in the sky in big circles either, but someone else might and I just deal with it and wait my turn.

BIG4D

Mr67stang. I'm not upset, sorry if I came off that way. I am a new pilot and I guess I was more looking for thought on the ethics of what the way they were flying. True there is nothing wrong with what they were doing. Although, the guy with the FAST trainer was being somwhat wreckless with his super fast downwind low flyby's. That would not have been a problem accept it was against the rotation.
I guess I just thought it was a little inconsiderate to the other pilots to fly the way they were with so many others flying at the same time. I still beleive in my tag-line!

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Next time you are at the field just sit in the pits with your eyes closed. Listen to the airplanes in the air and figure out where they are and what they are doing.

That how you fly with airplanes that are not flying a simple loop around the field. It's pretty easy to track 3 other airplanes besides your own from just the sound.

jester_s1

Are these guys club members? If so, make friends and let them enjoy learning. It sounds like they are beginners, and they will learn. Give them tips if they seem inclined to listen, and ask for consideration when you need to. If not, they both did a real jerkish thing and it would be appropriate to tell them about the club that pays for the field and regulates the flying. Perhaps they would like to join and learn the rules so that they can be welcome next time?

GaryHarris

I allways wait untill the 3D guys who clog the runway finish before I go out.

opjose

Our club has a "safety officer" that will occasionally get involved with situations like this.

Normally if someone is flying by themselves, they can do whatever they want.

However once someone else takes off, everyone must fall into an established pattern.

We all try to look out for each other, and keep out of each others way. Everyone values this.

We get the occasional person who doesn't follow in.

Everyone else starts shouting "the pattern is right to left" or "the pattern is left to right" and the experienced members take great pains to declare their takeoffs and landings to hopefully demonstate HOW these erratic flyers are expected to behave.

However if the hints are not taken, the safety officer is alerted, and our members are somewhat vocal about enforcing some basic good practices.

Usually it only rarely gets as far as the last steps, as leadership by example tends to work very well, especially when everyone else is doing it.

Charlie P.

Bingo.

Same at our field. There must be at least two members present (club rule that no one flies without someone else around). If only one plane is in the air it is normal to ask if he minds company - not required but a courtesy. We only have 30 flying members so often it is laid-back one-at-a-time flying and a lot of kibbitzing. And, if two or more models are in the air (four maximum) they have a pattern defined by the wind. If you want to be a speed-bump and do 3-D you either take the center of the pattern (over weeds/corn) or call it over the runway. Incoming full-size aircraft or deadsticks have priority, of course. Most days we have six or seven pilots and kind of do an informal rotation of 10 minute flights so everyone gets to fly and watch/chat as they wish, occasionally two at a time.

For the most part, 3-D occurrs low and Arresti style aerobatics can occur higher and simultaneously. The warbirds seem to favor fast, low passes and that can be a spoiler for both parties when a torque-roll and a high-speed pass join to form a confetti bomb.

And, wherever you go, there will be guys who no one wants to share the air with. We have a clause in our club constitution that unsafe pilots can be voted out at any time. Has not happened since I've been involved but I understand it was invoked in the past.

sportrider_fz6

if I'm out and someone starts flying all over the place, I'll ask the pilot who's already up "which way is the pattern" that normally will establish a set rotation if there isn't one already.

jetmech05

I bet your not so busy you cant wait 15 mins to fly....sit and wait for them to come down.......the problem of not flying the pattern....needs to be addressed before it gets out of hand.....if you have talked to these two guys and they continue to fly against the pattern....depending on your club there should be a grevance form you can fill out, that reqires the board to take action.......usually a formal letter that warns you of your conduct and that if you continue. you will be expelled from the club......I know this sounds harsh but you should see my club....most of the fixed wing flyers have gone to another club, I've seen 4 mid airs in 3 years....too many oh that was close to count....
the problem just gets worse.......good luck

Insanemoondoggie

I,ve find, if you just set and talk with them a while and not get in their face right off the bat . Then during the B.Sing mention the club is strick on flying pattern and calling out low passes , etc. And if you see some one with a trainer , cut them a little slack. More times than not , this works. If not, I turnit over to the safety officer.
Heli,s out number planes at our feild 4 to 1 . After flying with them for the last 4 years ,we have all learned to respect each other, and worked out ways so everyone gets to flyand enjoy it. But it has not been easy. I just cant fly a plane when there,s a .90 T Rex 700 flying eye level , 25 ft away, so I just wait my turn.

Mr67Stang

Not at all BIG4D. With just your view point of the situation and not having been there myself I felt it neccisary to bring up the other perspective. Odds are pretty good though that if you and your other club members felt these guys were unsafe then they probably were. If only one person thinks they are unsafe then it could be a difference in flying style not understood by the other. A reletively predictable pattern should be flown when multiple aircraft are in the air. The speed at which that pattern is flow is up to the indevidual pilot but the faster plane is responsible for collision avoidance in most cases.

BIG4D

Great view points and great suggestions. Thanks, they are all well taken. On a similiar toppic. When you are flying in a pattern, does the pattern meen you fly over the runway, up high, and the down wind leg is away from the runway.
I'm not sure how to describe it. Picture an oval track in the sky. Is the front straight-a-way over the runway? I'm not sure what the "accepted" pattern would be. I'm sure it varys by club. Just looking for what your club/field has adopted.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

This sounds like my old club too. Today I fly off a dry lake bed so there is no club or any real rules. Over time you learn who is safe to fly with and who isn't. Every once in a while a group of guys come out with there hot rod planes and start flying. We just let them have the sky and wait for them to land before we go up again. I know I have mentioned to them to please stay grounded while I was flying and several of the other regular pilots have done the same thing. We give them the sky and they do the same for us. These are nice enough guys but have never flown at a real club with rules so they just don't understand things like the pattern. Most of the regulars don't really fly a pattern either, most of us are stunt pilots so it's hard to fly a pattern while doing a flat spin, we do know each other though so I feel safer in the air with some people then I do with others. Talk to the club safety officer and bring it up at the club meeting.

sportrider_fz6

at my field the normal pattern is right to left( over the runway) left to right on the down wind leg. really it seems to be dictated by the direction of the wind. however some people favor a left to right pattern (that's the rotation when we pylon race) I am comfortable flying either so I'll adjust to the pilots who are already up in the air. also I have had instances where I've been up and had others take off that I'm not comfortable flying with, if the pattern is full I'll climb out and just fly higher then the others in a holding pattern until it's safe to land.(if I'm flying a trainer or my Cub) you'd be surprised how long you can keep a plane in the air at a low throttle setting. you just have to think in 3D(not the aerobatic kind) there is alot of sky. I didn't used to like to fly if there was other planes in the air, now I think it's fun. when I'm flying my P-51 and there is a lot of air traffic, it's fun to select a bogey and "roll in on it" tallyho hawks at angels 12

jester_s1

Normal pattern for us is dictated by the wind also. The rotation is set to allow takeoff and landing into the wind, and we have a pilot box on each end of the runway for that.

iflyfastashell

My Feedback: (7)

here here bog4d this might be the issue at hand. everyone needs to know and follow the rules. the pattern should be set by the wind condition except the occaisional direct cross wind.3d fliers should never hover over the runway unless they are flying in a gaggle with like others or if there by them self. we have a rule 3 in the air unless its a really busy day and then its 4 no hovering over the runway. the pattern is set by the wind direction or a agreement from the first guy in the air has been made. i would be careful of making a big deal of it and i see from a few responses others are choosing sides in me vs them. a bad thing to start. in an 8 hour day there is a lot of 12 minute blocks to fly in. communication is the key to getting along. if you talk with the others openly everything is good. if you do what we are doing here it seems as if it is worse and causes hard feelings and division in us vs them.every member should know all the rules of their club and be able to nicely speak to any guest and explain them. but it starts with everyone knowing the rules. what to do with air hogs sounds harsh early on.

Lnewqban

See the attached schematics, BIG4D.

Some people just CAN'T fly a right pattern; even when they take off and land from right to left, they reverse the natural pattern inmediately after take off.

For a while after solo, it is natural just to feel uncomfortable sharing the air with other pilots.
I recommend you:
1) To use "the second floor" of the pattern, flying higher than the rest, but in the same direction (even if it is wrong).
2) To listen to the voiced intentions around you, trying to make a mental map of the situation at the field (who and how many are up, when someone is on the field, when there is a take-off, landing or dead stick in progress).
3) To be clear and loud announcing your intentions (even if others don't do it).
4) To know the really unsafe and reckless pilots and to avoid sharing flight time with them.
5) To get use to share the air space and time with safe pilots, being always known by respect for and consideration of others.
6) To HAVE FUN.

Regards!

EMAN_74

Lol you should be happy that you have that problem i live in southwest oklahoma and have one club member my self wish I HAD THAT PROBLEM.... Read you tag line sir... have fun good luck we started out with eight ....

BIG4D

Inewqban,
Thank you very much. That is what Iwas anticipating, exactly what you have drawn.

Eman74, thanks for the input. What is it with the "read your tag line"! Ihave read it, IWROTE it. You might want to go back and read the entire thread. Iam not upset, just looking for some info and guidance on how to handle these type situations. That is what Iam trying to do, have fun.

I actually did talk to the guy, just general chit-chat and he seemed nice enough. Very pleasent gentleman. Ihope he does join, that way he will become familliar with the war we do thinkgs out there. You are probably all correct, just unfamilliar with things.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Where in this pattern are you doing loops, rolls, Cuban eights, horizontal eights, vertical eights, spins, split S's, Immelman turns, knife edge loops, top hats, humpty bumps, Tail slides, avalance, snap rolls, stall turns, lomcevaks, knife edge, knife edge with snap rolls, inverted flight,and anything else that I might have missed?

Because just herding an airplane around the sky ain't flying.