Beginner Planes with SAFE
 

I was just curious what the seasoned flyers think about a beginner flying with SAFE select on their plane? Does it kind of stunt growth and give a person a false sense of security so to speak? Its pretty darn hard to crash a plane when in SAFE mode.....but you flip the switch and it's a whole different story.

If you have a plane with that system, turn it off and leave it off. Part of learning to fly is learning to recover from situations where the plane gets out of shape. SAFE does that for you so you never learn to do it yourself. This is something we read about all the time here in the forums. For comparison, it's kind of like having a car with autobrakes(yes, that is a real thing). Since the car operates the brakes for you, you never learn how to properly use the brakes. Then the day comes where you have to drive a car without autobraking and have to stop it yourself. Since you've always relied on the car to stop safely and, not knowing how to use the brakes, you end up with a totaled car and a lawsuit because you hit someone. Now the question is "WHO IS AT FAULT?" Truth be told, YOU ARE AT FAULT because you're the one that never learned to actually drive a car.

I bought a Horizon Hobby Timber to fly while I build a Sig Kadet and it is so darn easy to fly you really don't learn anything unless you are a complete beginner and even then you better turn off SAFE like you said after a few flights and learn the "real" way.

The problem is when you dumb down the controllability of the airplane you vastly increase the actual space you can fly it in. typically these silly systems often end up in tall trees, rooftops and even power lines.

These so called learning devices have been fostered on folks going all the way back first mass marketing of radio controlled airplanes in the nineteen sixties They all have a common denominator and that is, they don't work.

There is nothing that can beat the tried and proven buddy cord system and an experienced instructor. Using a cordless buddy box system improves the odds on success even more.

All of the above is just my opinion

John:cool:

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Since , thanks to advances in computer technology , these devices do seem in fact to work by keeping the model from crashing , here's my opinion on their use ;

Of course , the first and best choice in learning to fly an RC model airplane IS the real life instructor route . The learning curve is much quicker when being mentored by an experienced teacher .
But , there are those folks who , for whatever reason , don't want to go the instructor route , and I will not attempt to analyze or denigrate their motives , obviously the industry believes there are enough of these people wanting to go it alone that they spent all that money developing , perfecting , and marketing things like SAFE .
But now what of the question of the stagnant skills aspect of having the plane fly FOR you rather than being flown BY you ?
Simple , anyone who is self taught with these systems has the choice to use them proactively . By this I mean that you let the plane fly itself to a safe and comfortable altitude (the proverbial "Three mistakes high") and then switch off the autopilot and learn to fly it up where you can't crash it , then use the crutch to get it back down in one piece . As the skills of flying up high progress begin pushing yourself again , you line the plane up for landing and let the autopilot finish the landing a few times , eventually landing it yourself totally without the help of the electronics . Ultimately it's up to each self taught pilot just how much they want to push themselves to learn VS having the plane fly itself for them , and the plane will only do just as much or little of the flying as the person at the controls decides it will .

I agree with init4fun. I call the systems electronic training wheels. I didn't use one as a beginner, but I imagine after a while the SAFE system starts to become annoying just like training wheels do. Yes, absolutely a plane needs more space with SAFE than without since you can't do a hard bank and yank turn. Of course, I always recommend to beginners that if they can see a tree they can hit it, so try to get as much open space as possible. Sure, an instructor is better. But SAFE makes it possible for people to go it alone that wouldn't have been able to before. I'm a fan.

This captures the best use of these. Several of the instructors in my club use SAFE enabled airplanes to train on a buddy box. I'm 100% "old school" - glow engine on a buddy box. Yes, they turn it off after just one or two flights with a new student. But, as outlined, it can be very handy for stepping the student into good landing approaches, etc. It is a good set of training wheels...but are only that, and it should be dispensed with as quickly as possible.

I agree that SAFE should only be used to get started to learn....what happens(at least with me) is you are having fun flying fast and turning quickly and doing all sorts of things(because it is fun) where you just used full right aileron or left and the plane turns and then presto...its back to level...I was thinking this is going to screw up my learning curve because there is no way when I flip the switch to turn SAFE off that I come remotely close to using the sticks the way I did in SAFE. I think I am going to join a club(contacted one somewhat close by) and learn with the help of some experienced flyers. Thanks for the input everyone its appreciated.

A wise decision indeed Real2You. There is no doubt in my mind that this will be the key to your continued success.

John:cool:

We used to have a very active training program at our club, but it is dwindling away recently, I believe because of the SAFE enabled aircraft. We have been training almost exclusively with electric Apprentice planes lately and our instructors have been training with the SAFE disabled. But many students today don't understand why they have to come back week after week trying to get a solo certificate. Often they will buy an Apprentice or similar and bring to training expecting to be flying immediately, and leave disappointing. In order to keep our train program active we really need to rethink how to deal with this modern technology, which is here to stay. Would you say we start them off using the SAFE and then encourage them to learn without, or have them try with SAFE disabled for a few flights, and then get them familiar with the SAFE? If we start with the SAFE I'm afraid they will get used to that and then end up just flying in parks and such. Hopefully newcomers to the hobby will want to continue with advanced models, and try building their own, and will need to learn the low-tech way.

My opinion on safe is that it hinders your ability to grow in the hobby. I feel these plane with safe and gps are only 3 rotors (or less) away from a drone. I want to be able to fly my plane not have it fly for me. After my first flight on my carbon cub I took out the gps completely, and am now wanting to change the rx to one without safe. I feel you learn so much more when your on the sticks controlling the plane. I still think safe enabled plane should be available because maybe people aren't as comfortable pushing their limits as i am, but i feel that that is when you learn the most is when you push your limits. I feel this way about safe and I've only flown 10 batteries at most. I do also think that purchasing a simulator is a good idea because it give a similar feeling to flying even when you can't get to the field

I'd say on the training issue that proper goal setting is the key. Establish that the goal is to be able to fly without it, and also to do not only circuits but basic aerobatics as well. A loop, roll, and hammerhead done under full control is not too much to ask.

My opinion only but to me flying with Safe is nothing more than letting someone else fly your model.

Like Jester said, "proper goal setting is the key."
Establish your goals and pursue them with practice, practice and more practice. Under the eyes and hands of an instructor if you still need one. And being able to fly more than just a circuit is important. Full size require cross country flights for their tickets. Our equivalent is to fly different directions and handling basic maneuvers like loops, rolls and stalls. "Nice landing! Can you do it from the other direction?"

;) Electronic training wheels , Jester , you nailed it ! What a perfect description of what SAFE is and how it should be used !

Just as a student with a human instructor is expected to , the hopeful presumption would be that once the student of the electronic teacher develops skills beyond needing the electronic mentor , the real push would then be on themselves to want to fully learn to fly . Although I guess there may be some who would want the plane to fly itself for their entertainment , I'd like to think far more would choose to entertain themselves by skillfully flying the plane , pushing themselves beyond beginner status up to doing the loops , rolls , and hammerheads that you mention (which I also agree with , anyone above beginner had best be able to do at least those three)

And if they don't, who cares? They are still buying models, having a good time, and enjoying the hobby. There is way too much purism among us. Let people have a good time as long as they are safe.

Yep , it don't affect how I enjoy the hobby one bit whether people want to be participants by flying their models VS being spectators to it flying itself . I do believe most who are into such a technical hobby will be of a mind to want to do the flying , but like I said in my first post to the thread I will not denigrate anybody's motives in any way as to how they enjoy the hobby .

;) No purism here ....

Yes, that GPS fence is pretty ridiculous on a plane. It makes sense on an FPV drone since people love to take those out as far as they can, but not on a plane. I personally think the SAFE system is overdone/overfeatured, but it works. I'd rather suggest something cheaper with the stability feature and the self-righting stuff.

I don't know, but I get a kick out of my ParkZone Butch O'Hara's F4F Wildcat with safe. I'm an intermediate flyer, and sometimes it's just fun to have a plane I go out to the field and throw it and it stays level on its own and also on landing. I usually switch it off when I'm just flying it around because with "Safe" it is just too limiting. Also I was once out with it on a pretty breezy day and kind of lost it, then just switched the Safe on, she leveled out and I (she) was fine. So I wouldn't want to be stuck on the "Safe" mode for most of the flight, but it is fun to have it. She pretty much basically lands by herself.

Interesting thread. How does the fence work as in how does it know the confines? Also, how does the SAFE system know where to land?

For me with my ParkZone Wildcat, it doesn't have GPS. So for the landing I fly it to a location that I believe is a good spot to start the descent to landing. Turn on Safe, throttle all the way down and she will stay level and will land unassisted. Takeoffs with safe on, 3/4 throttle and as level a toss forward and she'll just climb out level. At the 1:50 minute mark illustrates how it works on the Wilcat. I already have a Spektrum radio and batteries, so for $150, it's a bargain. Great grab and go plane, flew it yesterday in chilly/breezy Chicagoland weather. Fun. If you're a rank beginner, go with the Appentice.

it has GPS. When you start up it goes through a gps find me mode. You taxi or place it on the runway and hit the bind button until it wags. That lets it know the airfield location and the preferred landing direction.

As as far as the fence that is part of the boot up, in the manual there are steps where you hold the sticks in a certain manner to set the mode, one small ring which is annoyingly small, a larger ring. Then there is the mode where the field is blocked to the side of the flier’s positions.

SAFE Select
 

Agree that SAFE ends up being a crutch and can impede the learning process. But I do have a question about SAFE Select.
i just got a new plane which has SAFE Select and would like to use it on the maiden flight to get the plane up 3 mistakes high where I can turn it off. I’ve got high and low rates set up. Do I need to be in high rates to use SS? Low rates are set to 70%.
Thanks in advance for any replies.

I always launch my Parkzone Wildcat with low rates on and Safe on. Which is great for a safe level launch. But I'm am an experienced RC flier and once it's out and gains a little altitude, I turn off Safe. It's way too stable and turns are too shallow for me. I suppose I could launch with high rates on and Safe on, but the beauty is the launch is always flawless. I do the same with the landing. Low rates on, Safe on, and with reduced throttle, it will remarkably land itself. I only use Safe for my launch, landing or if I get into some weird orientation problem. Which happens.

Tom Nied, thank you.

Interesting discussion...
 

but what about COVID-19?
As a newbie to the hobby I sure picked a great time! While I now have more time on my hands, the hobby shops are closed and gatherings are banned so I am pretty much on my own. In this particular circumstance SAFE equipped plans are my lifeline so that I can get out in the fresh air and try to learn to fly.
Hope everyone is safe and well.

I know the feeling. I have some small RC planes I could fly at a park, but I'm considering flying a kite by myself instead. It could bring a smile to others from a distance.

As a lifelong lover of aviation who flies full scale (that means a real airplane for those who might be confused), I enjoy RC from a somewhat different perspective than I think most who are in this hobby.

First of all, let me make it clear that I'm a terrible model pilot and though I think it would be nice for me to gain skills in that area, it really doesn't matter that much to me. There is a variety of reasons for that with the first one being that I live in NYC and there's not a whole lot of places to fly anywhere near me. Of the fields that I do know of and have visited, the predominant occupants have been what I can only describe as geriatric curmudgeons who made me feel almost as welcome as ants to a picnic. I don't mean this to be a blanket statement, but a great amount of model airplane guys that I've encountered strike me as being at least a little strange, which I can't say about real pilots regardless of their age. The RC airplane environment to which I have been exposed has not inspired me to hang around let alone seek flying instruction within. Fortunately I like to build and currently getting my jollies by trying my hand at scale building techniques with the help of having constant access to real aircraft for reference. If I succeed in my building endeavors to the extent that I hope, then this airplane will never leave the ground due to the inherent risk factors.

So now to finally get to the point. I like to fly models also, but not being skilled as a model pilot, I can find a lot of pleasure and satisfaction from flying foamies in SAFE mode. It doesn't matter the slightest bit to me that the airplane is doing the flying, it's doing what I want it to do most and that is fly without crashing! It also fascinates me to observe the amazing technology that's involved in this toy!

I fully appreciate the effort needed to become a proficient model pilot, but why do I need to go through the hassle when SAFE works for me? I don't need to stroke my ego by becoming an accomplished model pilot when I can fly a real plane and my ego is plenty satisfied with that. When it comes to flying models, I just want to do it for casual recreation with the least effort and leave the business of being a sky god with a toy airplane to those who feel the need for that status.

Sounds like a rant airsteve, but you're entitled to that. I get it. I see it at my field. I actually consider myself a curmudgeon as you describe, and I'm damn proud of it. I'm 67 and I am what I am. BUT. Approach me politely, don't be a jerk, and I will be helpful to those who are beginners. I helped one old guy last season with his Apprentice. He has learned to fly it and we have a really nice friendship. But he was polite. So, do you see how we are "curmudgeons"? Mister Full Scale Pilot?

And here's the perfect example of the charming attitude where I am judged to have been an "impolite jerk" by someone who wasn't there to witness anything I may have said or done or even IF I had said anything at all.
Until now, I might have suspected that such gracious RC folks were a local phenomenon.

OK, Dude

Chill out guys, you literally have nothing to argue about. I teach 8th grade girls, and have enjoyed a break from their drama. Please don't make me have to call home to discuss your attitudes.

My point is simply that with my crummy model flying skills and a lack of favorable circumstances under which to learn to really fly a model, I am actually very happy with SAFE mode in a relatively cheap foamie. While it might be only training wheels and not doing anything for me to become a respectable model pilot, I like it and I find it to be fun. It also keeps me from filling the landscape with model airplane debris on the infrequent occasions that I get to play with the thing. So there!;)

I started this discussion back in August and have gotten a lot of different view points. Safe mode has it's place. It definitely changed the learning curve for me. When I wasn't at the flying field learning with an instructor....I was able to fly a small foamie at home learning orientation and basically just getting "stick time". Now that little foamie is flying around with no safe doing loops and rolls. Bought that F4F that Tom Nied posted the video earlier in this thread and am having a blast with it(using safe from time to time). All in all...it comes down to each person's goals and what they want to accomplish and where they can fly. I think all this technology has made it easier to get into the hobby, whether it's for simple relaxing enjoyment or to become an expert level flyer. Either way it's all good!!

And that's the goal. You've used SAFE for what it was meant to do, and I'm glad to hear you've stuck with it and had a good time learning. Anybody who does that, regardless of the path they take, has succeeded in this hobby.

Agree with setting goals. I purchased an apprentice with SAFE as an option on binding. Went flying and switched on SAFE. I couldn't stand it, even as a newbie. I was comfortable with flying solo. I will tell you that practicing on the simulator sure helped. The simulator helped me more than SAFE mode would have. I turned on SAFE and and shut it off in 3 min. Could not fly the plane as it was always limiting me to a narrow flight envelope The only issue I had was landing. Need some more flights under my belt.

And I agree, most of the time I fly with SAFE off, but I'm real good at losing orientation or flying on a windy day and get into trouble. Flip the switch SAFE on. It has saved me more than once.