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Making Molds of Classic Pattern Plane Fuselages & Parts to Keep them Alive for all of us to Enjoy!

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Making Molds of Classic Pattern Plane Fuselages & Parts to Keep them Alive for all of us to Enjoy!

Old 11-24-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermalSniffer
Well, I really hope that went to someone here!
TS,

you have a couple of PM's from me in your inbox.

David
Old 11-24-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by frequent flyer


In the shop new planes Utopia, Super Scepter, MK Beetle, Summit III , Curare, Pulsar Bipe, Trouble maker. and Phoenix VI


On the way to us we have the Summit II and the Summit I, Vertigo II, Nutcracker, Phoenix 7, and two more versions of the Arrow.

Looks like I'm going to be busy making molds.
That is sweet Don!

Can't wait to see the original Arrow's, Super Scepter and Summit III. Please do post some pics.

I'm afraid (for my pockets) that I'll need to be asking you for another kit soon - just a matter of deciding which one but it will likely be one of the Arrows.

David
Old 11-24-2014, 10:37 AM
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Hi Frequent Flyer:

On your price list I found the Illusion. You say to specify between the smooth kit and the one with the pipe tunnel. Could you please tell me the difference (picture maybe).

Regards,
Old 11-24-2014, 01:30 PM
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I know the feeling, David. I've got to go over and pick out more wood and hand over more cash for three more airplanes worth of retracts when I get home tomorrow! It's hell living close to Don!
Chris...

Originally Posted by doxilia
That is sweet Don!

Can't wait to see the original Arrow's, Super Scepter and Summit III. Please do post some pics.

I'm afraid (for my pockets) that I'll need to be asking you for another kit soon - just a matter of deciding which one but it will likely be one of the Arrows.

David
Old 11-24-2014, 02:28 PM
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Default Illusion wing pan choices

Originally Posted by HI847
Hi Frequent Flyer:

On your price list I found the Illusion. You say to specify between the smooth kit and the one with the pipe tunnel. Could you please tell me the difference (picture maybe).

Regards,

There are two wing pans to choose from. One that is smooth (see the first picture) and one that has a pipe tunnel in it (see the second picture)
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:40 PM
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Thanks. I would like to see those pictures.
Old 11-24-2014, 04:53 PM
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I added a couple, I can take a picture of the new parts if you can't see it from the examples above.
Old 11-24-2014, 05:13 PM
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So if you use the pipe tunnel pan, you would be able to use an inverted-rear exhaust engine but then you would have to have a tail dragger set-up right?.

Thank you very much for the info.
Old 11-24-2014, 06:06 PM
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Christian,

it's a little trickier than that. The Illusion was designed around a canted side exhaust engine which put the header on one side of the fuse bottom but within the fuse. The pipe then coupled to the header at around the wing LE again within the fuse to pan transition. Because the header was on the side, the pipe ended up at an angle when coupled so a "bent" pipe was used to align the rear half of the pipe under the wing center in the tunnel.

The simpler alternative is to use a smooth pan and install the engine at 90 degrees as in the Tipo and use a pipe that runs "beside" the pan under the wing. This also gives you a full clear nose area for the nose gear. Tipo's and Illusions look mighty weird on conventional gear (tail dragger).

David
Old 11-24-2014, 06:23 PM
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Hi David:
Glad you joined. You might remember me. We talked long time ago about my enlarged Tipo 120 from Eureka Aircraft. I kind of get the idea you are explaining. A picture would do even better. Basically you are saying the side exhaust engine is inverted and slightly canted and a bent header is needed to connect to the pipe in the center of the pan. Is such a header available or is it custom made?.
Old 11-24-2014, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HI847
Hi David:
Glad you joined. You might remember me. We talked long time ago about my enlarged Tipo 120 from Eureka Aircraft.
Christian,

sure, now I remember your T120. Glad someone undertook such a build. The Tipo scaling project has been a real success I'd say and I'm glad several have now been built in 10, 20, 40, 60 and 120 size!

I kind of get the idea you are explaining. A picture would do even better. Basically you are saying the side exhaust engine is inverted and slightly canted and a bent header is needed to connect to the pipe in the center of the pan. Is such a header available or is it custom made?.
Not quite. It's not the header that's bent. The header used is a standard header (can't say what kind of "reach" is needed but likely "long" as in the Tipo) but the engine is mounted with the cylinder at about 150 degrees CCW so the header is positioned just on the side of the interior of the fuse where the nose gear is located. Usually when an engine is "over canted" it is done to put a SE engine with its header on the fuse bottom centerline (e.g., Hanno's Calypso configuration). Not so with the Illusion. The header and nose gear retract co-exist in the same "chin" area of the fuse.

The header exit is then roughly at the wing LE junction with the fuse so the pipe and header are coupled partly in the chin of the fuse and partly in the pan of the wing. This is the reason why the pan has a wider angled tunnel area at the LE (see picture below) and a straight tunnel in the middle and TE of the wing. Since the header/pipe junction is slightly off to the side the pipe ends up at a 10 degree angle or so running down the tunnel. However, a normal straight pipe would hit the rear of the tunnel on the side so "bent" pipes were invented (see link below) where the expanding chamber portion of the pipe and the rear "muffled" portion are welded at an angle to allow the rear half of the pipe to ride centered in the tunnel.

Headers can be custom made to any shape and size but bent pipes are more rare. To my knowledge they are only commercially available from Weston UK under the Genesis brand name at the moment:

http://www.westonuk.co.uk/westonuk2_215.htm

Back in the day they were more common.

Hope this helps,

David

P.S. If you're looking for a RE Tipo like classic to build, go for the T825 which has a "dent" in the side of the fuse for the pipe. I think Don just finished molding it. Otherwise, Tipo's and Illusions are much better off with SE engines and pipe under the wing - just my opinion.
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Old 11-24-2014, 10:11 PM
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Default Illusion wing pan choices

I found this picture of the smooth pan and these pictures of the pipe pan with a pipe laying in it. Mac does make a header it is call a "hook left" it allows the header and retract to fit. the same set up is used on the Atlanta and a few other Classic Pattern models.
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Old 11-24-2014, 11:02 PM
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David

The "Tipo plus 825" I just kitted is the one without the dent in the side. The one with the recessed dent was the "Hippo tipo".
I have sold a bunch and everyone has said that they prefer the version I made without the recessed dent in the side.
I had a guy with the Hippo Tipo about a year ago that contacted me several times and said he was sending me the Hippo Tipo to mold. But I don't know what ever happened to him. I never got it from him.
Old 11-25-2014, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by frequent flyer
David

The "Tipo plus 825" I just kitted is the one without the dent in the side. The one with the recessed dent was the "Hippo tipo".
I have sold a bunch and everyone has said that they prefer the version I made without the recessed dent in the side.
I had a guy with the Hippo Tipo about a year ago that contacted me several times and said he was sending me the Hippo Tipo to mold. But I don't know what ever happened to him. I never got it from him.
Don,

thanks for for the clarification. I get the names and fuses mixed up sometimes. So I take it so far you have three Tipos in increasing size (T720, T750 & T825) and the Illusion (with optional pans). Missing from the "60" lineup would be the Hippo (with dent) and the smaller Surpass (a 55 size Tipo for light 4s 90's). Yes?

David
Old 11-25-2014, 06:55 AM
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Christian,

using a bent "left hook" header per Don's suggestion would be another option for a fully inverted RE engine. However, I suspect that you will run in to "reach" issues as the thrust line on the models is higher than the header intends. Your header rear section might ride high in the fuse causing your fuel tank level to also be higher than desired if you're not using a pressurized engine such as a YS or OS. Then again, if you're going for a inverted RE setup such an engine is not a bad idea.

I'll throw out another option for a RE inverted engine - use an S-shaped header to put the exhaust up in the top deck of the fuse. The pipe runs internally and a removable light ply floor is used to separate the pipe duct from the radio gear. For such a setup it is best to put the tank as close to the CG as possible since the header needs its space in the fuse behind the FW. This is how both the Magic and Skymaster are configured. At least one pilot back in the 80's had a Tipo like this - Steve Helms. It would probably work best with the T750 or T825 than the Illusion due to the mid draft position of the wing in the latter.

David
Old 11-25-2014, 07:28 AM
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Well I am glad you remember my build David. My Tipo keeps on Flying Strong. Here is a picture of it at Markham Park in Weston FL. I finally understood the whole idea. I'm interested more in the Illusion this time rather than the Tipo. However I was also interested in a YS rear exhaust. If I go with this set up, installing the pipe on the side of the fuse, would I have to do any other type of modification?. I believe you mentioned something somewhere about changing the anhedral of the stab depending on the power setup. Am I correct?. If not YS I would go with a OS61AX with pipe under the wing.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by HI847
Well I am glad you remember my build David. My Tipo keeps on Flying Strong. Here is a picture of it at Markham Park in Weston FL.
Nice looking T-120 Christian! I take it that is an OS 120 AX? How do they perform together? Your Tipo is shy of 12 lbs if memory serves?

I finally understood the whole idea. I'm interested more in the Illusion this time rather than the Tipo. However I was also interested in a YS rear exhaust. If I go with this set up, installing the pipe on the side of the fuse, would I have to do any other type of modification?. I believe you mentioned something somewhere about changing the anhedral of the stab depending on the power setup. Am I correct?.
Illusion it is. If you plan to go with a RE YS, then you'll simply have to make a small recess in the FW about 1" wide x 1/2" deep semicircular to pass the header alongside the fuse. Since you'll have a glass fuse, you'll end up with a gap between the FW and the opening you'll make in the fuse to pass the header. You can fill this gap with a big wedge of tristock between the FW and fuse side and then sand the groove into it per your opening in the FW. Once carved and sanded to shape, you glass the notch with 6 oz cloth and blend it with the fuse side. Evidently you'd use the smooth belly pan for this setup.

As for anhedral on the stab, Dick Hanson's discussion refers to the original T720. All Tipo's had different amounts of anhedral per Dick's recommendations. The Illusion did too and Don might have those instructions and can send you a copy with his kit. Basically the Illusion anhedral was reduced to the case of "no pipe under the wing" for the T720 since the pipe was concealed in Dave Brown's models. For a pipe running along the side, the same rule would apply so you'd build the stab and wing stock per Dave Browns instructions (technically it is DB's design not DH's...).

If not YS I would go with a OS61AX with pipe under the wing.
If using a 65 AX built along the lines of your T-120, how much anhedral you put into the stab is a bit your call. You could add more per T720 instructions to compensate for the pipe (and accordingly also add wing dihedral) but you could also leave it stock per Illusion instructions (less stab anhedral and wing dihedral) since the pipe would actually not materially increase the frontal area of the model given the pipe is beside the pan rather than under it.

The real difference between a T720 and an Illusion amounts to four things: 1) less stab anhedral, 2) less wing dihedral, 3) wing and stab chords equidistant from thrust line (hence, the higher wing position) and 4) 30 more squares on the wing (probably a few more on the stab too). The Illusion was really an "exercise" in the various experiments that Dick and Dave were playing with at the time to find the best configuration for the design. The thing is that Dave was a great pilot and since he flew the Illusion competitively, it just made sense to release this particular "Tipo configuration" as well.

Not to dissuade you but they eventually concluded that the bottom wing position of the Tipos with underslung pipe produced a better flying model. I believe that TonyF who also flew these birds competitively at the time agreed on that. You could ask for his input. I believe that he has also recently stated that the same underslung pipe position works better on the P7 (no anhedral stab in that design) than a RE engine configuration with pipe on the fuse side. The aerodynamics just seem better and some of it might have to do with the disturbance of the flow around the fuse with a pipe on the side. Dick argued that the indent on the fuse sides separating the canopy line, if you will, contributed to a greater "effective side area" which improves KE manouvers.

Whew! I've lost track of how many times I've made these comments over the years...

Hope it helps,

David

P.S. My nickel's worth on the ideas: If you are going to build an Illusion, use the 65 AX. Use the YS Classic in a proper RE design such as an Arrow or better yet, the tested but rare and cool design I'm working on! (Still 6 months out I'd say before production).
Old 11-25-2014, 09:19 AM
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Speaking of Tipo's, I have been tracing Dick Hanson's original Model Builder plans into autocad and decided to check the wing area. It measures out at 668sq.in. Being under the impression that the original design was 720sq.in. I then imported the plans from the Great Planes kit (referred directly to as the T720 kit in this thread) and checked it. That wing measures at 682sq.in. Both pdf's are scaled at 1:1 and known dimensions on them measure out correctly in autocad. Any comments or thoughts on these discrepancies?

A related question is what airfoil is used on the Tipo? Since I can accurately plot it from the coordinate data I would prefer to do that and get it right from the start.


Mark
Old 11-25-2014, 09:22 AM
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It is actually a 95AX and the it performs quite well. Yes it is around the 12 lbs. Well thank you very much for your time and explanations. They will serve very much for me taking a final decision. Maybe I will just wait to see with what you come up .

Thanks again,

Christian
Old 11-25-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mmattockx
Speaking of Tipo's, I have been tracing Dick Hanson's original Model Builder plans into autocad and decided to check the wing area. It measures out at 668sq.in. Being under the impression that the original design was 720sq.in. I then imported the plans from the Great Planes kit (referred directly to as the T720 kit in this thread) and checked it. That wing measures at 682sq.in. Both pdf's are scaled at 1:1 and known dimensions on them measure out correctly in autocad. Any comments or thoughts on these discrepancies?

A related question is what airfoil is used on the Tipo? Since I can accurately plot it from the coordinate data I would prefer to do that and get it right from the start.


Mark
Mark,

what are the root and tip chords as well as the LE taper and span on your AutoCAD wing panel?

As far as I know the airfoil on the MB and GP plans for the T720 is unknown (or, rather, non standard). This was quite common in the day as every pilot was "tweaking" airfoils to their own taste.

David
Old 11-25-2014, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by HI847
It is actually a 95AX and the it performs quite well. Yes it is around the 12 lbs.
Excellent, glad to hear it. It's amazing what those AX's can pull. At close to 12 lbs and using a 90 class engine it is sort of in the 1980's TOC class.

Well thank you very much for your time and explanations. They will serve very much for me taking a final decision. Maybe I will just wait to see with what you come up .

Thanks again,

Christian
Any time. Whatever you build, we look forward to seeing it!

I'll be coming out with a proper RE design in the spirit of the Arrow but.... different!
Old 11-25-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by doxilia
Mark,

what are the root and tip chords as well as the LE taper and span on your AutoCAD wing panel?

As far as I know the airfoil on the MB and GP plans for the T720 is unknown (or, rather, non standard). This was quite common in the day as every pilot was "tweaking" airfoils to their own taste.

David
David,

Root is 13.1", tip is 8.3", span is 65" with a 1.25" thick tip block (ie - each core is 31.25" span and has a root chord of 13.1" and a tip chord of 8.3") and TE forward sweep is 1.375" as per the notes on the plans. The airfoil is an odd one, it is almost like a sharp nosed NACA 00XX series or a combination of a NACA 630XXA and the 00XX series. Very thick, too, at close to 17%. The stab airfoil looks a lot more typical, being quite close to a NACA 63012A.


Mark
Old 11-25-2014, 12:19 PM
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Mark,

based on those measurements, I calculate a MAC = 10.88". A simple area calculation would then be 65" x MAC = 707.2 sq in.

If the MAC was rounded off to 11" then the area would have been ~715 sq in and a 720 square wing would really require a MAC = Area/Span = 720/65 = 11.077"

The geometric area, tips included, gives me 678.9 sq in.

So it looks like you are right and the actual T720 wing area is less than 720 squares. It doesn't surprise me as I've come across that in just about every other plan that I've measured. Who knows how areas where calculated or, rather, specified 35 years ago but I'm sure being generous with their figures was not uncommon.

David

Originally Posted by mmattockx
David,

Root is 13.1", tip is 8.3", span is 65" with a 1.25" thick tip block (ie - each core is 31.25" span and has a root chord of 13.1" and a tip chord of 8.3") and TE forward sweep is 1.375" as per the notes on the plans. The airfoil is an odd one, it is almost like a sharp nosed NACA 00XX series or a combination of a NACA 630XXA and the 00XX series. Very thick, too, at close to 17%. The stab airfoil looks a lot more typical, being quite close to a NACA 63012A.

Mark
Old 11-28-2014, 09:57 AM
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Here is the smooth pan installed on my Illusion from Don. This is from my " Illusion Build" thread. I've been trying to get it clear coated but 60 hr. work weeks SUCK!
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Old 02-23-2015, 03:41 AM
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Default Trouble maker

Just finished all the molds, made the first 2 kits and I finished drawing the plans last night. I'm off to the printer this morning and once I get the prints I will be shipping, today I hope, the first 2 kits ordered. You guys know who you are.

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