Hey All,

It turns out that ends truly lead to beginnings. Yesterday, my Calypso meta most unfortunate demise but low and behold a gentleman came to the field with a glass Tiporare fuse and brand new wing and stab cores...so of course Ibought it on site! What Ineed now is all the notes you guys want to give me. Here's what Ihave in my possession so far.

1. Glass fuse for a Tipo 720 (it's orange so I'm thinking its GP/WK)

2. Foam wing and stab cores

3. OS .61 VF rear exhaust

And Iwill be ordering a set of plans.

I want to build this airplane meticulously, and would really appreciate advice on set-up, materials, linkages whatever.
Iwill post a build thread as well.

Hey Joshua,

sorry to hear about your Calypso but a new Tipo does indeed qualify as new beginnings!

The first thing you might want to do is read Dick Hanson's article from Model Builder magazine (see attached). One of the things discussed is the amount of anhedral to be built into the stab and the corresponding wing dihedral. The original design had a side mounted engine with a side exhaust which slung the pipe under the wing. The presence of the pipe in that position required, according to Dick and Dave Brown too I'd imagine, the considerable anhedral in the stab for neutral knife edge response. With a RE VF in your hands, you are likely going to end up with the pipe down the side of the fuse unless you do something funcky like an inverted install with an S-shaped header to contain the pipe in the fuse top (Magic style). If you do locate the pipe along the side (Dirty Birdy style), you may want to consider Dick's suggestions for the amount of stab anhedral.

I haven't seen many orange T720 fuses but I have seen a few Illusion fuses in that tone. Are you sure it's not an Illusion (no pun intended)? If it has a bellypan, then its not a Tipo 720 but an Illusion 750. Once thing is fairly certain, I don't believe green or blue polyester fuses were ever made of these classics so they are all epoxy of differing types of resin. But I'm always surprised at finding out things that transpired back in the 80's. I recently found out that WK actually produced a glass/foam Tipo 40!

If your cores are original GP and were not cut more recently, check them over thoroughly. I have two sets one of which has been built but both presented problems in being unevenly cut. My first Tipo cores had "fat" deviations near the root and since they were cut as mirror images of each other, when flipped to produce two panels, they ended up with a fairly nasty root match discrepancy. One of the stab cores was worse yet with what looks like a bow (or template) that dropped near the TE while being cut - result, warped TE. I actually, re-cut Tipo cores to match Dick's original plans. the planform of those plans has wings that are slightly different from the GP plans and cores. The wing tip shape in particular was drawn differently on Dick's plans than those provided by the GP kits. This is of course not that important for flight but it does result in a wing which has different aesthetics. I prefer the "swept back" look of Dick's original plans. I actually cut cores for Tipo's in all sized based on scalings I did to result in Tipo's ranging from a 15 size to a 120 size (15, 25, 40, 60, 120). These cores I know are good, straight and symmetric. If you find a problem with yours, let me know.

Speaking of plans, which ones were you planning to order? As far as I know the only complete ones available are Dick's from MB. Those plans are discussed in an extensive scaling project thread. Here's the link:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7825947/tm.htm

To build a GP/WK glass/foam Tipo, you might find the GP plans to be more useful but I don't have a digital copy of those. Someone on the forum might. Apparently some kits came with plans containing some details but I don't believe the GP kits ever had a full size plan. My kit was one of the first coming out from GP and actually had no plans.

As far as linkages, materials and so forth, it is a bit of a personal preference but these designs, back then, used and/or recommended the use of an arrow shaft (Dave Brown) forked elevator pushrod. Nowadays you can improve on that concept further using CF rods and the rod can even be supported by the tail post and run in a brass or aluminum bushing to keep the rod centered about the elevators. In my build (unfinished) I installed four servos on a single tray in the rear of the wing saddle area. The servos were laid out for a "torsionless" elevator control (side mounted servo), P-P rudder (center mounted), throttle and a separate servo for steering. Retracts are Kraft Multicon electrics (heavy but cool). I have a second build to do in which I'll probably install the radio a little differently and I might use a carbon/balsa/carbon tray rather than a ply tray.

You might also want to check out Mike's (8178) GP Tipo 720 build thread - the only semi-complete thread on the forum as far as I know:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2827386/tm.htm

I hope this provides a good start.

David.

Joshua,

I see that David has already provided you with a link to MB plans and the original article. I have a HK Hobbies glass/foam kit (partially built). Attached is a PDF file for the building instructions written for HK by Dick Hanson.

Greg

David and Greg,

This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for.  Personally, I'd like to build this airplane as the sum total of the advice I get from you more experienced guys.  This is a special airplane, not many around and I want to do it right.

David, as a matter of fact I have read that article and really enjoyed it, and I ordered plans from Eureka.  If you would, send me a PM on those cores since it may not be a bad idea to have a new set.  The wing saddle is definitely low wing so it's a Tipo not an Illusion.  Speaking of, what is your technique for making the front bottom fairing on the wing center.  The one that will butt against the front of the wing saddle.  I'm currently building a DB 60 (one that sat in my uncle's basement since '78), and I am not all that thrilled on how that fairing turned out.

As for the exhaust.  I do like the idea of doing it Magic style.  That is so clean and nice looking, but I am not sure if I can manage to keep that simple.  I saw some pics of a Tipo with a rear exhause going straight down the fuse side, and the pipe appeared to be set in a groove that was cut into the fuse.  Has anyone out there ever done this to their plane??  I am ok with fiberglass, I made a custom cowl and canopy for my DB.  I would appreciate tips on technique for this mod.  I liked that look, and I like the idea of the pipe staying at tight to the fuse as I can get. 

Any opinions on Tricycle vs Taildragger??  Gonna go retracts either way.

It seems that RCU is back online. I was attempting to upload some snaps of my build so far to no avail.

Greg,

just a minor comment. Bill Elliot's company was called WK Hobbies (see top of your instruction sheets). As far as I know there is no HK hobbies associated with Tipo's. HK is often used to denote HobbyKing so I just didn't want readers to get the idea that you could buy a Tipo at HobbyKing! Not possible folks.

Joshua,

glad to hear that the initial comments are useful. The instructions Greg posted were copied verbatim for the GP kit - actually they just stuck a GP logo on the front page. So those are the ones to use.

The plans Eureka has were pulled from the scaling thread I started (see my post above) as Don (from Eureka) was interested in producing short kits of the reduced scale versions as well as a 60 size wood short kit. I believe the 60 and 40 are available but not sure about the 10 and 20 - perhaps cores only. No plans for glass fuses were ever in the works but Don (Frequent Flyer in this case) I believe is planning to produce fuses of the 60 size Tipo and/or Illusion as well as foam cores. I don't believe either has been done yet but it would be best to check with him.

The fuse bottom fairing is the typical piece of wood that is somewhat annoying to produce. Basically it's a matter of pulling the airfoil from the wing and transferring it to the balsa block. The plans help with this. You then gradually carve it out until the fit is good and you are satisfied. The block should be oversized so that once you have carved and sanded the airfoil shape, you can then fair the top part into the fuse bottom and sides again by carving and sanding. Note that the forward wing bolt goes through this block reason for which there is one instead of two bolts - easier. When you install the front 1/2" dowel to support the bolt in the wing, make sure it is long enough so that it protrudes from the bottom of the wing about 3/8". The idea is to have a flat base that you can tighten the bolt against and hide it by the balsa block which will be bored out to accommodate the dowel extension from the bottom of the fuse. The rear bolts are different and just tighten against the typical 1/16" ply plate. The front bolt is vertical while the rear bolts are angled to conform with the airfoil of the wing bottom. Getting the wing retention plate for the front bolt in the right place in the fuse is a little tricky but again the plans help there. Once the fairing is done, you'll want to fair it in further with epoxy and microballoons to make some fillets along the sides and perhaps a but from the end of the block into the wing. Use little epoxy so it sands easily.

Before you build or install the block in its final form, align and mount your wing and stab - the two crucial parts of the build. This way you don't end up with a block which is a little offset after wing attachment. I plan on painting the wing center section as I don't like the way covering goes over those compound curves. It also avoids the bolts from wrinkling the covering when tightened and makes for a durable center section and good fuse paint to wing transition. Of course, this only applies if you are planning on covering the wing and stab (a tad lighter).

Regarding the pipe, I've seen Tipo's with inverted RE engine installs but they were later gen Tipo 825 models - larger. Personally, I don't think an inverted engine installation on a T720 would work that well as it would result in a large gash in the bottom of the nose which is a bit of a signature of the Tipo design in my view. This would be lost if the engine were installed inverted. Also, routing the pipe inside a fuse which doesn't have a removable pipe deck sounds like a headache in maintenance to me not to mention heat issues as well as space issues if you plan to use retracts (a must [8D]) - especially pneumatics. Finally, the header might give you some further headaches when it comes to get the nose gear installed and operating and the fuel tank would probably have to be moved back further compounding the issues. On a non-pumped engine (like the VF) I'd keep the tank up front where planned for in the design. In short, on a T720, I'd stick with the standard external pipe setup and run it along the fuse side with the VF. If you have a SE engine, then you could use the more standard under the wing configuration to keep the fuse lines clean.

The photo you are referring to of the Tipo with the fuse groove is a T825. The fuse was actually molded that way. I don't know of anyone who has done that mod to the fuse of a T720 but again this would likely cause you problems with tank space and other gear install. I wouldn't do it - save your glass work for a project that needs it (like your DB). The T825 is a larger model so it worked better there - not my favorite design I must admit.

A tail dragging Tipo is just plain wrong! It works with some designs - that is the converting from trike to draggin' but on the Tipo I find it just looks really awkward. Do the plane justice and build it classic style - trike retracts. You can't say that guys on this forum are not biased! [8D] I don't think anyone here will concede to the idea of a draggin' Tipo.

Attached is a pic of a Tipo with an OS RF (I believe) showing the fuse side pipe setup. He used a fuse top header but I think a 20 degree angled header can be used too for a more snug fit with some minor mods to the FW area and some reglassing to pass the header in a groove.

Here are some snaps I've taken of my on & off build over time.

I look forward to your build thread as it will hopefully motivate me to get mine finished!

Last two snaps are soft engine mount option as used by Mike in his T720 with an pumped OS SF. Mount is Sullivan.

David.

A few wing build snaps...

I hope you don't mind me posting these pics while in the development stages of your build. I'll stay clear once your build commences unless you'd like others to contribute Tipo build photos.

David.

The last ones of the wing...

The last post is a little video showing the Multicons in operation... [8D]

Save file as Multicons.avi for playback.

David.

Joshua,

I imagine this was the photo of the recessed pipe Tipo you saw?

Straight 0 degree header is used on a Webra black head with dynamix carb. Not sure if its speed (short stroke) or champion (long stroke) engine.

David.

You are absolutely correct about W-K Hobbies David. That's what happens when you rely on memory. By the way, which is the stronger engine, the Webra Speed or the Webra Champion?

Greg

Greg,

now that the Webra site is gone ([]) its hard to trace back this info but if memory serves me, both engines had the same max power output but different torque curves (evidently). I now have a RE Webra Champion as well as SE Webra Speed (like yours) so one day it might be feasible to test them both out on the same dynamix. Dave Wood made some tests on a BH RE Champion I believe but it was a little different than mine - can't recall exactly how. Quite a beast according to the Macs site!

I'll see if I can find the link. Got it!

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8797318

Actually my Champion is a 1030 too - wohoo! Recently got a Speed 80 as well - will be interesting to compare the three although I don't plan to put an 11x8 on the 80... [:-]

Also need to run this heli Speed 28. Ralph says it was a great engine. Recently became a big fan of Webra's now that they are extinct. [8D]

Joshua, apologies for the detour... it's all related to Tipo's though!

David.

I have a Speed .61 which is what I used in my first Deception. This NIB Champion .61 is what I have in mind for my Tiporare because I assumed it would be a bit stronger. Due to some opinions I've seen expressed on RCU, I plan to replace the Webra "Dynamix" carb with a Perry pressure carb.

Greg

rear exhaust inverted works ut decently.
as soon as the weather warms up a little bit i will be painting mine
it is a wk model someone cut the nose off at the firewall befor i got it. (luckily they quit working on it at that point who knows what might have come next.)
so i reatached the top of the nose and made a cowl out of the lower half. the pipe and headeris a macs products one. i unfortunately added the dents when i tried to slightly rebend it.
the engine is a brand new ,old ys short stroke 60. BDretracts are going to be used.
Dave.

Dave,

nice inverted installation. I actually didn't think the cylinder would fit without being exposed at the sides. Works well with a pumped YS.

I think Joshua was considering (or maybe I had hinted at it) an inverted installation with an enclosed pipe and an S shaped header bringing the exhaust up to the top of the fuse. This is what I was recommending against in a T720 but all kinds of Tipo's have been built.

With an inverted installation and the pipe under the wing, it works out more or less like a side mounted install does.

David.

Yeah simmilar to the side mount iswhat i was hoping to end up with.
since the stab was allready mounted changing the anhedral wasn't really an option.
a gear up landing might be a bad idea on pavement though.
that pipe was pricey!
if you didn't want to make the cowl a seperate piece it would entail a very large hole in the bottom uf the fuselage.
potential paint scheme
Dave.

I don't think I ever saw an inverted rear exhaust arrangement for the Tipo before; they were always side ex. with the jug sticking out sideways with the pipe running under the fuse or the rear ex. with the pipe running down the length of the fuse. If I ever get to mine it will be setup the latter, Y.S., with the tank mid fuse, I think. I confess, I want the Phoenix 7 from Hangar 9 after one of the guys showed up at the field with one, they're nice.

Dumb question but why not mount the engine upright and set it up like the XLT was???

In the past years I have had Dirty Birdy 40, Mach One, Bob Smith T2-40.. I always loved the Tipo's as well as the Curare and EU1-A..

Rick

Thrust line is reversed in the Tipo. The engine would poke out like a sore thumb and the pipe would be all nasty and exposed. XLT, Escape, Deception and so forth have a lower thrust line and tuck the header into the fuse as it exits into the canopy. It just doesn't look right on the Tipo. The side mounted engine is IMO the most graceful arrangment.

David.

Well,

Ask and ye shall receive, this is fantastic.  Furthermore, I do not mind detours in the conversation and I certainly do not mind people posting pictures of their work. 

That inverted install looks really good, and I can appreciate doing things out of necessity like having the stab anhedral already set.  I am a big fan of scratch adaptations on these models.  My DB, for example, sat half built for 30 years before I got my hands on it.  The hardwood engine mounts weren't going to work for me so I lopped the wood cowl down to the firewall and laid up a new fiberglass one.  The built up wing was complete and set for fixed trike so I filled the mounts, relieved the sheet aft of the leading edge to spar on ribs 2 through 5 and installed main gear retracts. 

The flexibility, creativity and community that comes from building is why I don't do ARF's.  Personally I have nothing against them, but I love to build and I love to learn from other builders.  I knew the Tipo would grab attention so let's keep this going.  Like I said, I want to build using lessons learned.  I'm into rare kits.  I also have an NIB Great Planes Super Skybolt kit in my queue. 

I'm planning ahead for control linkages, and has anyone had any experience with the DEPS setup that Central Hobbies sells?

Joshua,

the DEPS setup from Central is designed to be supported along its length down the fuse. A little ingenuity could get you the support needed by running square CF rods from the wing TE are in the fuse to the tail post. The DEPS would then run alongside these rods. Getting lateral support between the glass fuse sides might be a little trickier but again with patience something could be done. It might be more trouble than its worth and using a round CF tube or glass arrow shaft with forked pushrods at the elevators might be the easier and classic approch to the elevators.

The Skybolt is a beautiful bipe.

David.

I appreciate the view on the DEPS, I will see when I get to that point and I may just engineer something myself.   I like the idea of an arrow shaft, and it is classic.  Would I be correct in my thinking that a side mounted elevator servo would eliminate the differential?? 

 Here's one to all of you who may be looking to thin out your engine collection.  As I said I have an OS RE engine, and I am considering using it in the Tipo.  Well, that was before I came across Carolina Custom Aircraft selling the T2A MkII which really needs an RE.  My point is, if anyone as a Webra or a YS 2 stroke that they don't mind getting rid of and one which will go to someone who truly appreciates it let me know.

Josh

Josh,

The photo below should answer your question - in short, yes. I posted some pics higher up with some details of gear installation. By the way, the servo required to install in a side mounted fashion has to be of the low profile type in order for it to fit. I'm using a 1" Futaba. They're not cheap but then again, elevator is not something you want to do without...

In case you don't hear form anyone, SE 61's are not in short supply on buybay or in the sales area of RCU. Both Webra's and YS's can be found.

David.