Who is the actual governing body for Classic RC pattern? Is it the CPA or the SPA or something else. That is, who makes the official rules that everyone abides by? Also at the Nats, what rules are enforced for Classic Pattern and by what organization?

Proparc,

If you get the NSRCA K- Factor there will be a great article about CPA in it...

If you don't here is a short version of how CPA came about...

Back 5+ years ago Gary Courtney out of Huntsville Al, had a old time pattern event with great results, it was called BPA..... During this time SPA would not allow pipes or retracts and also has the 1975 year cut off and alot of the guys had the piped older planes and no place to fly them. I talked to Gary and a few others and we even did a conference call and basically since I had the time to promote the classic competition Gary said to go for it... CPA - Classic Pattern Association was formed after some consulting a few people on the name and CPA was less harsh as Balistic..

Anyhow this all started in 2010 (CPA) still flying the rule book that BPA was using. Another gripe SPA members had was no voice in how things are being done, CPA has votes on all major items, the most recent was change the pattern for 2013 and how long to fly this pattern and then when members don't pay dues when do they become d delinquent.

Most all the CD's in the US fly the same set of patterns, a few contest have a mix of CPA & SPA patterns and Chip's contest will be flying a different year , but the patterns are very close to our years 1980-1981.

In 2012 we had 18 events coast to coast and have several key people thru out the states to help promote classic pattern, one area that started last year with a primer may have as many as 5 contest alone this year.

Yes one of the goals it to have a classic NATS and I can see this happening in a year or two and do it old school and have it travel around like the NATS of the past.

Alot of contest are doing a combo event with CPA & AMA patterns being flown at the same contest with good results.

Here is the CPA website http://www.classicpatternassociation.com

We have added a E-newsletter for the paid members and we have great support from the AMA at many different levels from the District leaders all the way to the Executive Director. Also most recently CPA has been show cased in the NSRCA K- Factor and will have several write ups during the year in this publication.

It is always the option to fly other patterns but the CD would have to publish the pattern some where. I know I would hate to be practicing one pattern and arrive at a contest and find out it is not being flown..

I guess all 60 + members are the governing body and all members and non-members have enjoyed the contest in the past. We are looking forward to a great 2013.

Come join the fun, we have several CPA members from the big state of TX, and looking for someone to jump start the classic push in the SW.

Scott
CPA#2

In control line stunt he have one main body Pampa. Pampa is the "SIG" for control line stunt in the U.S. It is the only "SIG" for control line stunt. Outside of the U.S., its the FAI and F2B for stunt. Do you have two main controlling bodies for Classic RC pattern-SPA and CPA? On a National, level what rules do you guys follow for Classic RC pattern? Who sets the cutoff date for ships, engine sizes, specs etc?

The CPA has no connection to SPA...

CPA follows the AMA Published 1980-81 rule book.. http://www.classicpatternassociation.../1980-1981.pdf

Most all the information can be found on the CPA website or on other RCU post about planes.

SPA has there set of rules for planes and engines etc ..here is there site http://www.seniorpattern.com/

cpa#2

In terms of governing body for classic pattern airplane flying as a whole, there is none. There are different organizations under the label of classic pattern. It is a misconception to think one potential SIG or group will be "THE" governing body for classic pattern as a whole.

The SPA, like Scott says, is their own organization. Their sole authority lies within the SPA boundaries.

The same applies to my interest.. the CPA.

The same applies to the NECPO.

These are the three out there I am familiar with at this moment.

What may happen in the future is that a membership may grow and become the mainstream, deciding which is largest, and they would usually have the honor in setting a precedent- but not purpose to destroy another organization, or setting "THE" precedent. Having choices is a good thing. But that is how all things come into being.

These organizations themselves may choose, or choose not to have a list of "legal" pattern airplanes, rule cycles, designer classes, etc. As of this time, no one organization has the monopoly to classic pattern. I don't even think that would be a good thing.

In terms of Nats... Everything is in a state of evolution at this point. I am excited to see that the mixed AMA and Non-turnaround flying has been primarily using CPA cycles. I would only say for certain that these choices are decided by the host, or the CD of the event, and not enforced by any one organization.


I write this especially to emphasize that a SIG does not indicate dictoral rule for all other classes. Just because the SPA is a SIG, that does not mean they enforce their rules on the CPA, NECPO, etc... nor can they.

Just because the Classic Pattern Association is courting SIG status, this does not mean the CPA will force ourselves and our rules on every other organization.

A SIG sets you apart from other similar AMA events in your area as yours in the event there may be two or more similar events overlapping each other and interfearing with participation at either event.


With that said, I am pleased a s punch to participate in an organization putting the options available to the voting membership. There has been some great things changing within the CPA because of the desires from within the organization. The leadership has listened and made choices available that have been asked for.

I also like the CPA because the focus is on the classic pattern airplane designs flying the classic pattern cycles, and the people are amazing! I have friends now in areas of the country I would never had met if it wasn't for the CPA.

Obviously I am motivated to see the CPA become as big and as amazing as anything could be. But I cannot force that on anyone. It is growing on the sole basis that it is fun! It is fun to fly the old pattern! And people are seeing how fun it is to fly a well trimmed airplane, and they want to fly the classics!


Brian

Well said Brian.

I am a member of CPA but I only host SPA events at this time because that's what is popular in my area. I was a little displeased that SPA had some rule changes this year and none of it's 'members' were given the chance to voice their oppinion (from what I understand).

Wasn't there also a BPA organization?

The former Ballistic Pattern Association is now the CPA.

Brian

I'm still going to press you guys a little more. Hypothetical, I build a Joe Bridi Kaos but, I eliminate that little sub rudder under the fuselage, for various reasons (maybe just cause I don't like it LOL). That sub rudder is very strongly identified with the Kaos, and if I eliminate it and show up at a contest, whose rules will determine if I am Classic Legal or not,(as we say in stunt). That is ,whose rules will determine whether or not I better find a piece of cardboard and fast or, I am still good to go,(not that I am going to win, cause I probably will suck LOL).

Did you have a specific problem? Or are you just wanting a discussion?

proparc,

Bring your plane and fly....

Here is the short version... if your a member you should seen in the CPA newsletter all the planes being flown... at all the contest I have been at and heard from the CD there is NO ONE running around as the plane police...

Here are the original rules that Gary C. came up with with the early BPA contest in Huntsville... The CPA (old BPA) uses the same rules for now...

72 inch (ish) wing span ( That was Jason S. wording... )

Up to a 120 4-stroke engine

up to a 61 2 -stroke - now this is not being held to hard and fats as there are a few planes being used time to time with a bit larger engine.

Electrics are allowed- as per the 1976 AMA Published rule book..... West coast guys are rocking out with E- power... Maybe one will write a article for the newsletter on a power set up...

Pipes and retracts are allowed, but not required.

CPA membership is not required to fly in any of the classes , as membership is required in SPA.

Sprinkler Tech.... yep you 100% right the members had no say ( vote) in the new class added to SPA. also sent you a PM and "thank you" for the support and hope you can get a CPA contest in your area, try a mixed SPA & CPA and bet you will hook a few

My Deception is missing a the little fin from the top of the fuse to rudder and never had a problem in SPA or CPA .

The other MAIN RULE IS.... MUST HAVE FUN AT CONTEST ! all we want to do is fly the old planes and do one maneuver at a time and have fun...

sorry, double post.

Brian,



scott

That's what I'm looking for!!

Well come on out and fly..... there several CPA members in TX, maybe you can get something going...

Tom, (Sprinkler Tech) is in TX.

Between the time Joe Bridi first designed the Kaos and what we know today, we have made significant advances in our knowledge of aerodynamics and the availability of better and more powerful powerplants. The reason for the questions was that, I would like to incorporate some of those advances without running afoul of any classic pattern rules whoever makes them.

In control line stunt-my event, Classic for us is pre-1969, and you have to hold the original outline of the ship. They kind of play it pretty tight in stunt and in some cases, the guy in charge may have actually known the original designer,(we have a lot of old timers LOL) so you don't want to pull anything.

The sense I get is that I can whip up my Kaos,( I intend to scratch build it) and not to worry so much about it as in Control Line stunt. The CPA and SPA seem more like just good common sense. If my Kaos comes out looking like an Axiome, it ain't going to happen LOL. But if I change the airfoil but hold the outline, I should be good to go or, add a little more rudder because of the Kaos's famous "wiggle" problem, they'll know that' and I will be alright. Scratch building is more labor intensive and takes more time so, you want to be sure that what you make is good to go.

Now I think I understand where you're coming from. It would be the same as control line for SPA with no modifications. There is some wiggle room but not much. It is frowned upon.

We had a situation in SPA where some planes were being purpose built by a very talented builder to perform pattern flying better than the original design. They were really light, lengthened, the stabs and control surfaces were modified, and the airfoils might have been tweaked. The plane no longer looked like the original design. The governing body allowed them to use their aircraft till <Date> and then they would have to replace them with a period aircraft.

Who decides at the event if it’s ‘illegal’? I guess that could be the Contest Director. I personally wouldn't make the ultimate decision, I would want to put it to some kind of vote but if you show up with a 'Duck' and you say it's a 'Goose' I would have to say that kind of ruins what we're trying to do which is to replicate the period aircraft and flying style. If these guys were in the Novice class or Sportsman class I don't think it would make as much of a difference but if you're flying in an Expert class your skills should be good enough that everyone is pretty close to same but the plane could affect who wins. Each plane has it's characteristics and you have to practice enough to know how it affects the maneuvers and adjust accordingly. If a contestant showed up with a plane that looked like it was modified I would mention it to them and probably myself and the other regional contest directors would debate rather we would disallow it for future competitions. But it would have to be a serious deviation before that would happen. SPA has a governing body but I still think contest directors could step in, but don’t quote me on that, we haven’t had to do that yet.

There is a lot of talk about engines, weights, and airfoils in SPA. Because of the limitations imposed in SPA, they are pushing all the limits they can. To be honest, the reason I am trying to increase performance and decrease the weight is because the maneuvers will be easier. CPA might not have that problem because they don’t have the restrictions.

It's also no secret that the wing drawing you get is probably not how your foam cores are cut. I’ve heard some designers kept the actual airfoil secret. So what are you supposed to do if you don’t have the original profile? Get it close or ask someone for the original profiles I guess. I think this may be part of your question. There are a lot of NACA airfoils or pattern airfoils that might work better than the original. I don't think anyone will ever know but I personally would try to get it as close to the original as I can. So if you’re asking can I change the airfoil to one I know works better. You shouldn’t but I don’t think anyone will know. If you want to tweak a design or use something more modern the classic pattern contests are not what that’s about. To me it’s like putting an engine in a soap box derby car.
Hopefully somewhere in this I’ve answered your question.

Tim

Tim,

Your right there was a plane designed with current airfoils and other mods holding the outline of the original plane real loose... a big duck rule... but the airfoil was not made available to the public at all...[:@][:'(]

MY personal view... NOT THE CPA VIEW.... if your going to do a plane anyone should be able to get the plans or cores etc.

Most all the planes a that are being flown are a fiberglass fuse or ARF and it is real hard to stretch or change airfoils etc. so the policing is not really needed... Me as a scratch builder of the Deception and the Thunder Panzer like to make the plane just as the plans... yes i left of the little part from the fuse and rudder on my Deception.. but it also was a week long build for the plane.. so I was toast when it was done.

I guess it comes down to the pilots/builders own feeling and knowing that his / her plane is stock or modified... in saying this not trying to push anyone away, again the CD always has final say at a contest, but we want to have fun flying old planes and old patterns...

so again, come join the fun, reach out to some of the other TX guys and maybe get a contest started.

looking forward to seeing the kaos...

scott cpa#2

This string reminds me of why pattern went the way of the Indian back in the 80s and early 90s. Just the term "Governing Body" sort of sucks the joy out of it now, like it did then.

Tony,

That is why CPA contest are growing as well as the membership.... everything is relaxed and we have fun like in the old days.. I started pattern in 1985.....and this is a ball to fly...

CPA has promoted contest and primers coast to coast and we invite you to join the fun.


Scott

Tim,
When I started flying pattern we had a class called Novice. I was flying Bridi's Kaos which wasn't designed for retracts, Retracts nor was the use of a tuned pipe allowed in Novice. Once you placed 1st in Novice, you were required to move to Sportsman Class where retracts and pipes were allowed. The original Kaos was not designed for retracts so you had to modify the nose by making it deeper. This allowed room under the tank for a retractable nose gear.

Being a paid member of CPA, I feel that this modification is Acceptible. However, sweeping the wing of a Kaos would be Unacceptible.

In my area, Fort Worth and Dallas (TX) we don't have any CPA contests (Meets as we used to call them). We only have SPA and I really don't care for SPA and I'm not a member. But I plan on hosting a CPA contest this year in Grand Prairie (Golden Triangle RC Club). Ihope the SPA guys plan on attending and flying their SPA planes in the CPA meet. I feel that their planes should be just as competitive in the 81/82 patterns as are the CPA planes. I know many pilots were flying SPA style planes in 81 and 82 right along with the guys with retracts and pipes.

What are you guys thoughts on mixing or seperating the CPA and SPA into different patterns or everyone flying the 81/82 rule book?

I also need prospective dates of meets so I can decide on a date for GTRCC meet. It would be nice to have a meet every other weekend in the area even if it meant each club hosting two meets during the season.

Scott, I'm a paid member so let's vote on something, anything.

Frank

Frank,

Yes I saw your membership come thru... I will be printing the membership cards soon... glad to hear of another contest,let me know dates and info and I will post on the CPA website and newsletter.

hmmmm....lets see what can we vote on

What I find so attractive about Classic pattern is that coming from control line stunt, a lot of guys in Classic Pattern build their own planes. And, I am used to that in stunt. Cats here in Classic are scratching it up like crazy!! A week doesn't seem to go buy without someone on this forum starting a build thread. Those are the guys I want to fly with. The stuff I've seen on this forum man, these guys know what real modeling is all about!

Oh man Frank, you've got my attention now. I would like to attend a couple CPA events before I host one. I think the T-bird and Wings guys will participate. With the right publicity you should have at least 20 pilots.
Crap, now I need to make another DB with retracts

Thats cool proparc, it seems more CPA guys build their planes.

I don't want it to seem SPA is full of problems. It's really a blast and I love it. There are some times they make a rule change like the bigger engine thing that makes me go 'what the what?'

Well all,

In CPA if there is a vote ALL paid members will have a say .....The way it should be.... sounds like there could be some good CPA contests in TX... Might have to make a trip to TX.


Scott

I'll just voice how I intend to run the Classic events I am holding next year.

I like flying the older designs myself. But I am not going to keep anyone away who shows up with anything reasonable. Modern models that have the look, the feel and the approximate size of "classic" models will be allowed. Even the smaller pattern models that are available like the GP Sequence, the Osiris and such will be allowed. In my opinion it is more about going back to the one maneuver per pass style of flying then being demanding on flying "classic" designs.

I feel that there is an opening for one maneuver per pass style of aerobatic competition to return. I love the idea of flying the old designs and that is what I will do for now. But I want to encourage the better then average club pilot to try competition aerobatics. I think this style if we keep the models downsized and simple will grow. And I want to encourage that.