Technically, that's probably true Ed. However, there are several forty-size genuine pattern designs from the '70s. I guess around the time of the gas crunch the prices of balsa and glow fuel began to climb. There were a number of "economical" pattern designs published during that era, the goal being to allow modelers to compete with a smaller investment. I have no idea how successful any of them were. But, if a Super Pacer competed in a contest would that make it a pattern plane? I mean, Toyota Camrys are winning NASCAR races.

David

Wow David, you really have a huge plans database! Thanks again!

Having just read the Gator Flea article, that's exactly the reason behind the Gator Flea. I thought it looked familiar, now I know that it's a down-sized Compensator. What i found interesting, was the Gator Flea used retracts. It's a pretty sharp looking ship.

FB

Back in the mid 70's southern Ron Chidgey took the Tiger Tail and shrunk it to make the Bobcat. Southern R/C had a kit which said on the box it would "Purr with a 29 or Prowl with a 40" with today's engines I would suspect that if it was built lightly that it would be a great 20-32 size plane. I have a kit downstairs and it does show retracts also but I think they would be a little tight fit as a trike. Jim Kirkland's Mustang X was a .46 size which might work well with the 32 size motors of today. Also had retracts. There was a Supra Fly 25 ARF at one time maybe late eighties or early nineties and I have a partially built Aurora 25 kit from MK from about the same time frame.

I spent alot of time working in at Samsung in Korea during the early nineties and at that time 10% nitro fuel was selling for around $40.00 per gallon at local hobby shops. I went to a local pattern contest in Chang Won and all the pilots flew 20-25 size machines. They said that the only guys that flew 60's or 120's were the masters going for the team trials. Had a real ball flying a borrowed "little Arrow" with OS 25 VFDF piped and it was FAST. Had better eyes then.

Hope this helps.

Peace

Mark O

David:

If Nascar becomes any more business and any less racing you might see a Toyota Prius winning. At least Old Time Pattern is not about the money like most other sports.

Go fast and Roll left.

Peace

Mark O

OK, I checked the photo. It is, indeed a wrinkle/wave in the photograph paper.

Not to start an argument, Ed, and I am not offfended, but the PP .15 is truly a miniature pattern ship. I designed it to be cheaper, easier and quicker to transport/fly for practice. I have a first place trophy somewhere from a fun fly / pattern event in MA back when. If you read the R/C Sportsman article, it explains all.

Of course, a .15 size has disadvantages in pattern and would not be seriously competitive, but the PP .15 flies just like its larger sibling.

-


My goal with such a statement was to start dialogue about what is and what isn't a patternship. The reason that I bought the Peppermint Pattie originally was because of its resemblance to Jim Martin's Banshee. But I never once considered competing with it.

I won a pre-novice contest flying an RCM Trainer 60. Does that make that model a patternship? (wink)

The smaller models, at least in my experience, are hurting when it comes to knife-edge flight and point rolls. On the other hand, they seem to excel at snapping maneuvers, spins and Lomcevaks.


Ed Cregger

I think the era of small pattern ships was primarly due to the advent of small radio systems from '68 on. Size wise, there is very little difference between .40 and .60 size models. And it was soon realized that the bigger models could be flown further out making them look smoother.

I agree that that is what happened. However, I always flew closer in and down low, with the judges' permission, of course. That seemed to win me a few points by making the other fellows look like sissies for flying so high and "safe". <G>

This strategy didn't always work. You had to spy a bit and find out about the judges in advance, which is not always fool proof.

Yep, the heavy reed and early proportional systems were huge with huge batteries. This high weight demanded a large airplane to pull it all around.

Pattern changed from backyard mechanics/aerodynamicsts/builders (mostly blue/gray collar in my area) to being similar to modern all-out car racing, with a similar increase in cost. I enjoyed the former era immensely because I could still create/invent and accomplish things with my effort, whereas the later, more professional style of pattern flying places more emphasis on the depth of one's pockets. Both styles needed similar piloting dedication and diligence, but the ability to express oneself creatively was more closely related to the previous style of pattern that we now call classic pattern. I quit flying when it became a buy'n'fly game. Just like I quit drag racing when it was possible to buy a faster car than I could ever build in my back yard. The fun had been taken away, as far as I was concerned.


Ed Cregger


Ed Cregger

Jim Kirkland's Mustang X was a serious attempt at .40 sized patternships. I don't recall him winning enough contests with it to make it a notable pattern model. But there is much that I do not know.

I'm not down on .40 sized patternships that much anyway. It is the smaller models that I do not recognize as "real" patternships. Again, I do not know everything and I do know that in some countries you had to fly in the .25 size class while working your way up to larger engine powered models. So, somewhere in the world, there most likely are true patternships in the smaller sizes.

The only Southern R/C Bobcat kit that I am familiar with had a constant chord wing. The larger model it was allegedly copied from does not. Therefore, it doesn't appear to me that the Bobcat was a scaled down Tiger Tail because of the wing differences. Let's talk it over, whoever said that the Bobcat was a scaled down patternship. I'm just trying to boost dialogue, not say anyone is wrong - or even right.


Ed Cregger

My SkyMaster20

still on the bench.... small bench that is.





DM

Ed, I believe you may be thinking of the Alley Cat.

Bob Cat 1973, Alley Kat 1975.

Ray

Hello Ed:
I'm sure you were thinking of the Alley Cat rather than the Bob Cat. I even looked at the box and saw the tapered wing. You must be talking to my eye doctor, He just keeps making my glasses thicker every season.

Peace

Mark O

-


Hmm, now that you've mentioned it, you may very well be right, Ron. Thanks.


Ed Cregger

Aurora60, that sure is a pretty model. It appears that there were more serious attempts at creating smaller patternships than I remembered.


Ed Cregger

Mad Man Marko-RCU, what size prop was on that Little-Arrow with the 25VF-DF. I have several of these engines and wanted to use them for several 25 size planes, but haven't been able to get any info on the right size prop to utilize the engine correctly.

windcosmic.

There's a variety of .20-.25 sized plans available. You may need to look around RCU to find the right one for yourself. I have found many people here to be very generous with sharing a plan or two. If you can't find a .20-.25 size plan you like you can always get a larger say .60 size plan scanned and shrink it down yourself. I did this with my Deception plan. Originally a .60 size, I had the plan scanned and then used photoshop to shrink it to a .20-.25 size.

My chioces.
Mk Curare 20
MK Magic 20
Super Pacer (although not really a pattern plane, it sure looks cool and fast)
Matlas 20
Mk Aurora 25
Dirty Birdy 20
Usra Major 20
Blue Angel Jr
MK Cosmos 20
Mk Skymaster 20

I have a Midwest Flea Fli +10 kit stored away for a build someday. It is a neat kit but is going to require some work to get a full ball bearing 25 in the nose. Many of these old kits have fire walls positioned so there is not much room for the engine.

Hi guys, anyone have the gator Article, is possible to post it here? thanks a lot !!

If my memory is correct I believe that the prop was an 8 5 or 6 but I kind of remember an MK or other japanese propeller with metric markings. The builder had shrunk the arrow plans to about 4 foot span. It flew nice but was really fast. I would say that the engine was about 16K or better. I'm trying to find some pictures of the Korean R/C flying. I was surprised about the development that those guys put into smaller pattern planes. They flew a shorter like intermediate pattern and used 6-8 oz tanks. They said that the average flyer could not afford the fuel for a 60-120 size ship. They were kind of sad to hear that I was paying about $ 12.00 for a gallon of 15% CP at the store and we got discounts for volume. Really nice guys to fly with same as most R/C guys around the world.

Peace

Mark O

Well, you can practice the SPA classes with about anything... I've seen Ed Hartley fly the expert routine with a Goldberg Cub, and he does it beautifully. He flys it at the KCRC field in Knoxville, and calls it the "Pattern Cub". Takes some mixing but it does the routine very precisely! Ed flys a Curare at SPA events for the judges sake.....LOL!!

Wow! Nice Curare 10, but at this momento that comes all up to 173.90 EUR = 272.420 USD shipping included to the states!


><
Tomasina ChicaWolverina! [sm=wink_smile.gif]

Yes, it was a ripple in the photo.

Hi! has anyone a scan of the Dirty birdy .20 plans?