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lfinney,

Is that what's in the spray-can foam? I see no evidence that it melted the foam.

Mitch

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Mitch,

good news! I look forward to your build. I've never had issue with mentioning product names or even with showing a picture of an actual product to inquire about it. Even links to products/items on hobby stores don't seem to be an issue. In the end, we have to be able to talk about what and how we use products in building.

I'm building a reduced scale Deception from scratch for .15 to .23 power - 40" span. I haven't been at it much lately but should be able to get something done over the holidays. I'm working on cutting and kitting at the moment and hopefully get my wings and stabs finished!

I should have some updates to my thread soon:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_81...ception/tm.htm

David.

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David,

The product is "Weldbond". I used it to glue the leading and trailing edges of the wing and stab at the recommendation of my local hobby store.

In the past I've used epoxy.

This stuff seems very strong, and it's sandable. You spread a thin layer on both parts, wait a few minutes, and then press (tape) the parts together. It's dry enough to handle in 1 hour.

I like how it feels when you are trimming the wood flush(before sanding). You can feel that you are getting to the glue line because it feels "crunchy".

btw, if you need a face to go with the name, I updated my gallery with some pics from this summer. The Sig Mayhem 3D is my current favorite - an absolute joy to fly with a Saito 100 and a 16x4 prop. The kid is my Son Steven (15).

Mitch

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Sanding started. Wings are just butted together (not glued).

Now I have to decide if I want strip ailerons or two servos. Strip Ailerons would preserve the look.

Two aileron servos would allow all of the modern mixing/differential.

Thoughts?

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What the repair looks like now:

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Mitch,

nice field! My boy is a little younger (going on 7). Looks like you're moving right along with the build!

Weldbond - that sounds like interesting stuff. Probably the same company that makes JB Weld? Did your LHS recommend it because it's more sandable or stronger than epoxy?

David.

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David

I'm not sure that he said it is stronger than epoxy. We were talking about the problem with sanding the gorilla glue. And the inconvenience of mixing epoxy. Either way, I'm happy with it and will use it in the future when appropriate. I'm even considering it for the wing center joint (not the glass, but just butt-joining the halves).

Thanks for the compliment about the field. Amazingly enough, that field is in the Wichita, Kansas city limits. It's a long-closed and capped off landfill. The city is very supportive of model aviation because of the large number of aerospace people in Wichita.

There is a further improvement project in the works.

You can see it on google maps. It's just north of MacArthur and Hydraulic intersection between MacArthur and the Arkansas river.

Mitch

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Mitch,

I'll have to check it out on Google. I'll also pick up a tube of that stuff and give it a try. I'm going to also try polyurethane glue on small hinge points on the D10 for a change, see how that goes. My concern is the foaming of poly as it expands - don't want it in the hinge point.

Regarding ailerons on your D60, I would go with dual outboard servos but that is a strong preference of mine. I'm not a big fan of torque rods particularly on strip ailerons - I don't mind them for flaps. I'm not sure what radio and RX you'll use but using 2 channels on your ailerons does offer you considerably more flexibility with a computer radio. Although any channel can be assigned to the second aileron servo, I've discovered that certain channels are preferable in order to keep the pulses in phase with the master channel. On JR/Spektrum systems for AIL this is AUX2 (ch 7). The corresponding aux for use with the elevator channel is AUX1 when using two servos on elevators (I don't do this on pattern ships - I use forked pushrods). I like to make my servo wells deep, line them and install the rails inside glued on three sides recessing the servos and leaving only the horns on the surface. On my D10 I installed the servos on the CG line just forward and outboard of the mains. If you do a tail dragger, you can install them easily at the chords biggest thickness just aft of the CG line.

I'm not sure if you did all your landing gear, servo well cutouts already. I typically find it easier to do this before sheeting as it keeps all the wood/foam lining under the sheeting and also prevents you from having to cut through sheeting and foam when making wells. But doing it after the sheeting gets the job done just as well. I guess it's a matter of preference.

Are you going to use mechanical retracts? Do post some info on how far fore of the CG you plan to install the LG line. I considered main gear only on the D10 but in the end I figured a way to get a nose gear retract in there. My concern at the moment is weight - I'll have to remove any unneeded weight wherever possible. So far, 4 holes planned in each wing TE/aileron, 2 holes in each elevator half, 5 holes in the fin/rudder. I'll have to see how much balsa I can remove from the fuse. The fuse top is a big slab but it's mostly needed for strength since there are no doublers in the Deception. It's interesting how the design relies on thick balsa, triangle stock and three ply formers. I'm also debating on the canopy - balsa or foam - but that will be last. I suspect I might make a mold from foam, glass it and either remove the plug or leave it in there depending on what weight glass I use. Maybe two layers of 3/4 oz glass and foam will be lighter than a full glass canopy without foam.

'nough said, David.

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David,

I prefer the hinge points as well. Here's a tip to keep the glue out. Before applying glue, fold the hinge and rub it on chapstik (lib balm). Make sure you get a little bit of the chapstic on each end of the hinge pin. Then fold it the other way and do the other side. Don't apply too much, just enough to temporarily seal the hinge. Then glue as normal, being careful not to get chapstick on the glue surfaces. I have never had an issue with glue making the hinge stiff since a fellow-modeler told me of this trick. I would use 30 minute epoxy for this as it may be hard to control how much of the glue will pillow out of the hole.

I'll be using Spektrum. Thanks for the tip about the aileron channel as I have decided to go with two servos.

Cutting the "box" for the servo should be no issue. I did see your technique on the deception 10 build thread. Nice work. I could do a similar thing here except the edges of the box would come up flush to the wing skin.

I will not be using retracts. I will use fixed gear in a taildragger config. I had nothing but trouble with my Calypso flying off the grass until I converted it to fixed bear by reinforcing the fuse just ahead of the wing and installing composite landing gear. I like this method, and I noticed that in one of the photos on the image site the builder (Richard) did the same. I'm going to assume that this is SPA legal and press on. I MAY attempt to move the gear back onto the wing belly pan and integrate it into that structure but that may be too heavy.


I will also deviate from purity by using a four stroke. I dropped a heavy hint with the wife for a Christmas gift. She usually does pretty well. If I do, I'll have to make the firewall and at least one of the frames a little bit wider. No big deal as the firewall is missing anyway and I would have had to make it. Plan calls for 1/2 inch thick firewall reinforced with triangle stock - old school for sure.

Thanks for all of the tips and words of encouragement. This is what I was hoping for when posting here.

Mitch

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Forgot to mention: The wing came to me with very poorly-done landing gear cutouts. The circular hole for the wheel on one side even broke through the top of the foam in a small spot.

I simply skinned over this issue. My engineering judgment tells me that the wing is stronger like this than it would have been with the open wells with liners installed. I didn't want to add the weight of expanding foam to fill these voids. You can see the edge of the slot that the previous builder cut to allow for the routing of the air-lines or wires in the picture above. The other slot is covered by the expanding foam repair at the root.

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Firewall redesigned:

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Firewall moved back because of length of the fourstroke. Tank pushes through the hole in firewall. The neck of the tank will be sealed to the firewall with silicone. Parts are not in correct position yet - just a light test fit.

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I'm planning the fuselage reinforcement for the gear. Can anyone tell me why Jim would have used this wing mounting approach instead of simple wooden pegs forward and nylon bolts aft (like so many other aircraft do)?

The wooden peg approach would be much easier.

I'm not sure that I trust a nylon bolt in tension anyway, at least the wooden pegs are in bending/shear. I have used the wooden peg approach on countless planes and have never had a failure.

I would use two 1/4 inch oak dowels spread apart as far as practical.

It would be easy to integrate this approach at this stage.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Mitch,

I've been thinking about that one myself. However, in his article, Jim does mention that either one works - matter of preference. My only concern with the dowel approach is that the holes in F2 may need to be elongated as the space behind the wing, even with the angled TE, might not allow dropping the TE onto the fuse with circular holes. The dowels might actually need a little more vertical room. Not really a problem though as long as they don't have any side play since the fuse cradle will prevent any vertical movement. I had to do this on another recent build.

I went with the dowel approach on the D10 - two dowels and one screw in the rear. I guess if the screw fails, I'm toast... I could use two...mmm. Maybe two 6-32 nylon bolts. Actually the screws are part of the reason I don't like torque rod aileron setups - it gets in the way. I find that sort of building and checking tedious since its unnecessary. With large ailerons and plenty of space between the torque rods and the TE it's not so bad - not the case with pattern ships.

BTW, the classic scheme model in the first post on my thread was retrofitted for a 4-stroke and carbon gear under the tank area for SPA. Looks like what you might have in mind. Here's the picture.

Happy Xmas building! David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Mitch,

BTW, if you are able to take a picture of your plans and post it or send via email, I'd be grateful (I can send you email via PM if you need it).

I'm be curious to see how they differ from mine. I've already noticed some differences - at least in the lettering.

If you're interested, you can download my reduced plans here:

http://www.4shared.com/file/74223895..._15_40x24.html

Thanks, David.

P.S. Time for Xmas lunch!

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David,

PM sent.

Your plan looks excellent. I would like to build this plane. I currently have a small (own design) plane flying with a Magnum .15 that is a blast. Very portable.

I have decided to just build new fuselage halfs. The build quality of these is very poor, with mismatched butt joints. I also discovered that the original builder used 3/8 inch triangle stock on the top side of the fuselage side. I think he made the mistake because there is an error on the plan. There is a callout for 1/2 inch triangle stock but the arrowheads point to the 1/2 inch balsa top block! It will be difficult to carve/sand the fuselage to shape with 3/8 inch triangle stock - it would break through.

This may have been the reason for the original builder to abandon the build. It looks like he (or she?) was in over his head.

Mitch

teamvortex

My Feedback: (6)

Hi,

This is Rich Ernst.

The Deception photo is my airplane. I tried the taildragger arrangement for a while. While it worked just fine, I like a tricycle arrangement for better takeoff and landing scores. Your choice. I built a new plywood mount for the CF gear from Bolly, and added a steerable tailgear with springs to the rudder control. It's a bit of work since the Deception rudder does not go all the way to the bottom of the fuselage, but can be done.

Good luck, it's a very good flying airplane. I've got two right now.

Rich

Team Vortex Aerobatics
Florida

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Rich,

Hi. I'm glad that you've spotted this thread. Yes, your taildragger is an inspiration. I hope I can make this Deception look that good.

I'm willing to give up ground handling for grass-field performance for now. I intend to build a trike config SPA plane next. Maybe a Curare from plans, or another Deception depending on how I like her in the air.

So far, this build has been fun. Obviously I got her for next to nothing, and it's fun to bring the potential out, bit by bit.

Any advice on powering with the Magnum .91FS. I have no experience with this motor. My only FS is a Saito 100 and of course it's a gem. I hope this motor will be an ok choice. If not, I'll just fix it later.

Mitch

teamvortex

My Feedback: (6)

Mitch,

I flew with the OS91 Surpass for awhile and then switched back to two stroke. Either the OS61FX or the OS55AX will work really well. Go for about a 12/8 APC and you'll be ahppy at a lot less $$$. I'm currently flying my pink and blue Deception as my prime plane. I'm going to redo the red one back as a taildragger for our local grass field. I prefer to have multiple copies of one airplane so that my practice sessions are good for either plane.

Happy New Year and have fun.

Rich

ps: I'm having a ball flying my reproduction Beachcomber. I'm not sure if it's not actually better......

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New fuselage sides. I had to draw these and use the old sides as a partial template as the plans are no longer straight or to scale. I left the triangle stock out of the lower nose so I can do the landing gear mod:

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Excellent work Mitch,

at this rate, you'll be done in a few weeks!

David.

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Parts for the nose mod (landing gear) are now designed, cut, and test-fit.

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Light test fit:

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from the other side

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empennage test fit