Greg,

switching resins strikes me as a bad idea if you ask me. The point being that polyester and epoxy are not compatible. Some say that you can use epoxy on polyester (for example on some fuses) but not vice versa - the polyester just won't cure over epoxy. For this same reason, the Dacron (polyester fabric) won't bond to the cured epoxy.

The idea is that you do your layup with assorted pieces of glass. If you need/want to use peel-ply on the bottom layers, by all means - I don't find it necessary. The Dacron is to obtain the smooth topmost layer. You don't need to flow epoxy just to add the Dacron if all else is cured - take advantage of the epoxy to bond the glass. When you've thoroughly wetted the 3/4 oz top layer(s), remove as much excess epoxy and add the peel-ply (Dacron) over top pulling it around the LE and TE. To avoid overflow I also use painters tape along the chord lines of where I want the glass to end. Before the epoxy is completely set, I cut along the inside edge of the tape making sure that I don't affect the wood. It will just leave a line as if you had scoured an actual piece of glass. As you lift the tape, you will find that it will leave you a clean line removing any excess cloth and peel-ply. Let the thing cure overnight and in the morning you can lift the peel-ply off.

It's not a problem to layup the glass cloth in multiple passes of epoxy and varying weights and sizes of cloth.

Hope that helps, David.

Thanks for the warning, doxilia, of course I take for granted that every modeller should be aware of the methanol related risks ( even if they dont mix fuels they use them...and squeezing some in the eyes in refuelling operations is possible)...and, apart from always wearing gloves, i also care to mix epoxi in a flat plate just to avoid it to warm up too much as can happen in a deep cup...before diluting it with methanol, just in case !
As old modelers, we was and are always playng with dangerous substances in a way or another, think about nitrate thinners, cyano glue, two pack enamels,balsa and wood dust,...too many to list,so care and safety first.
P.s.
Don't want to remember you the day me and a friend (we where boys..) preparing soldering fluid by adding zinc powder in nitric acid...(in a little basement room)....we knew then that the resulting gas coming out form the bottle was hidrogen.....so my friend sayd "let see if we can have a candle !" and lit a lighter.....BLAM ! nobody was harmed...but what a lesson !

Latin RC lover,

There's a good boys story for the rest of us! Sometimes I'm amazed that we made it this far considering the things many of us used to do as kids...

Fortunati voi che avete ancora capelli! ...o magari anche quelli sono scomparsi a questa tenera eta!?

David.

Greetings,

Thanks guys for posting this method and the pointer to the build thread illustrating it. I searched for the build thread. I found it very useful. In case anyone else is interested, [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6496478/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm]here it is.[/link]

George

Ne sono rimasti pochi, in effetti !

Ciao

Renato

George,

great thread isn't it? Nice KK build too.

David.

It seemed to me to be an excellent build thread. Many techniques there I'd like to emulate. Unfortunately, there was little detail for the "peel-ply" process. I'm just going to have to trial test before I try to use it.

ChiefK

I didn't expect this thread to take off like this. I don't have any photos of work in progress but hopefully this may clarify a few questions. I don't use polyester resin anymore - epoxy resin only. Photos are of a phoenix 7 wing center section, wing tip, empennage. All are 100% covered with 3/4 oz using peel ply and west systems. These were lightly sanded with 220 grit after removing peel ply and are ready for primer. The last picture, sorry not classic pattern, is a vintage formula 1 done with peel ply as I described above.

Virtually invisible in the photos. Where do you get the West Systems resin?

ChiefK

I buy it locally at a marine supply warehouse. I have also ordered it online from aircraft spruce and specialty company http://www.aircraftspruce.com/ . The shelf life unmixed is many years (even stored in a hot florida garage) so I buy resin by the gallon and hardner by the quart. It also makes excellent fillet material when mixed with micro balloons http://www.westsystem.com/ss/410-microlight/ and can be mixed with colloidal silica http://www.westsystem.com/ss/406-colloidal-silica/ to make it thicker. Good stuff! No I don't work for them.

Thanks for the info. No "local" sales outlets for West Systems anywhere near here. I'll order some.

ChiefK

Classic Fundamentals...a tutorial...post your building techniques HERE!

Edited for detail and accuracy!

Peel n ply...dress sizing...stuff that came with a classic model I am building NOW!

Ace R/C High Glider MK II...this is NOT a classic pattern model, it IS a classic that was on my "got'a have list"...got it and now the Family Dose is building.

The kit curiously came with this white stuff and after reading the posts of this thread decided it must be the "dress sizing" stuff. The photos show the materials that I commonly use for center sections when using 6 ounce nylon/glass cloth.

I will tell you that although I show you how I expected to use the "dress material"...my results totally sucked!!! I tore the stuff off before it cured due to the wrinkles. After more thought I have determined that my use of epoxy finishing resin rather than conventional stickier 45 epoxy was a BAD CHOICE. The regular 45 stuff gets firm faster and is more sticky. Obviously the Ace foam wings would have melted if I chose to use the denatured alcohol.

Photos show:

Materials/tools for center section glassing

Ace Mk II in various stages of prep for the "dress material".

Calypso wing used a 6" wide piece of 6 0z cloth AND a 3/4 ounce piece was applied (about 1" wider than 6" piece) after sanding intitial layer. Sanded and additional 2:1 thinned coat applied over entire area, sanded, spackled and sanded. The pipe tunnel was formed with a 2" PVC pipe and 80 grit sand paper wrapped around PVC. 1/64 plywood was glued to the pipe tunnel using white glue on foam and thick CA around the edges. The wing has a 3/16 plywood spar about 10" long with lightening holes drilled with a forstner bit. The model will have an Hanno's "original" color scheme consisting of white, cream, red and dark blue film. The area was first masked with light green 1/8" 3M fine line painting tape and brown paper was added to protect the wing. One coat of Monokote primer was sprayed using a slightly heated can (30 year old Monokote heat gun) followed by Dark Blue Monokote paint and a final coat of Monokote clear. The covering will be over-lapped about 1/8" and a bead of clear fingernail polish over the edge.

Dirty Birdy wing...I know conventional gear...long story. Several coats of the finshing resin, sanding, feather lite spackling for the edges. The rear wing mount is a combination of plywood and very hard to find "phenolic" micro balloons and finishing resin. The phenolic/finsihing resin is very easy to sand and work with. Supra retracts with Futaba 136G retract servo.

Sig Komet wing showing 1/64th plywood (from original sealed 1970's kit) wing skins attached with Dave Brown Southern Sorgham (call the hobby shop located to the AMA National flying site for more of this impossible to find stuff)

Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Copier of other people's fine ideas

Classic Fundamentals...a tutorial...post your building techniques HERE!

Edited for detail and accuracy...

Different types of "super" materials like carbon fiber. Carbon fiber can be used to add significant strength to balsa and ply with a little imagination and good gluing techniques.

Carbon fiber mat- I found this at BVN Jets for about $12.00 for a sheet 24" x 12" (Bob Violett Jets) in the materials section of his very interesting web site. The mat is like thin paper, accepts CA and all kinds of epoxies with different viscosities (thin to thick). The photo shows the Ace R/C High glider with the elevator reinforced where the dowel attaches and is wrapped around the 1/8" dowel to significantly add anti-twisting strength. 5 minutes using scissors, thin CA and my fingers with a plastic bag on them to sqeeze it around the dowel.

The carbon fiber "hair" stuff I believe is called "toe" (probably spelled wrong). I was given some years ago and peel of strands add thin CA and instant super strength. I mostly use it to make thin fiber glass/epoxy glass areas stronger like the exit holes of an exhaust on a belly pan.

The heavy weave is an exact replacement for 6 oz cloth except is 10 x more expensive.

The 4" wide material is super thin (thinner than 1/64 plywood) has a bonded white backing also super thin. I am using it to strengthen 1/4 light plywood firewalls rather than use 1/4 aircraft plywood. Balsa USA of Wisconsin was the source. Photo of firewall is a Deception fuselage I am currently building. Dave Brown retracts are mounted to the carbon fiber side of the firewall, carbon sheet bonded with thin CA. Forstner bit is used to counter-sink the blind nuts.

Not shown are the multi-tude of rods and tubes available to lighten, stiffen, very temperature stable AND save grams quickly at a generally high cost. As a note, I am very pleased with plain old lite ply with lots of lightening holes and a spruce brace...old school works great!

Source most or all of this stuff at a well stocked local hobby shop like Al's Hobby Shop in Elmhurst (Chicago), Illinois or mail order.

Rusty Dose
Team Futaba

Classic Fundamentals...a tutorial...post your building techniques HERE!

Edited for detail and accuracy...

Making symmetrical wing tips...use center lines. Wing tips provide more than something to bump into taking your model in and out of the house.

I add centerlines on anything that needs to be straight including leading and trailing edges while building and sanding. The wing tips are rough cut AFTER a center line has been drawn using a fine line roller ball pen (my favorite). The tips are hollowed using a few x-acto gauges in a big honking red handle, silver handle, long blade, # 11 and black handled x-acto carving knife with curvy blade makes quick work of the rough shape and I gernerally attach the tip with yellow titebond applied to both sides to be glued. 80 grit to cut the shape followed by 180, 220 and 320 if you are crazy. Monokoting wing tips is easiest using a heat gun and NEVER touching an iron to the tip. You will need a buddy to assist.

The photo shows a couple of contour gudes...one is red plastic and one is wire or just create a cardboard template. What ever shpe you pick...make the opposite wing tip IDENTICAL!

Photo shows Sig Komet wing tip.

Rusty Dose
Team Futaba

Great tip Dusty, pun intended. I have in the past made my wingtips with two layers of balsa sandwitching (sp) a piece of 1/32 inch plywood. This denotes the center line as well as providing a less dent prone leading edge. I have never used this on a large wing tip such as the one you have pictured.

Classic Fundamentals...a tutorial...post your building techniques HERE!

Yes, I hate prep for painting and painting too!

$400 for 4 colors of base coat clear coat auto paint
$500 for spray equipment to apply the above materials.

Feeling of wiping off a painted model...Priceless!

The trick first then a few examples...Bob Violett pin hole filler will save you at least (1) maybe (2) coats of primer, save weight, save a bunch of time and $$. After you have applied 3/4 ounce glass cloth using very thinned Z-poxy finishing resin and denatured alcohol (thin to preference at least 1:1), sand with 220 wet dry-dry. Re-coat with 2 parts denatured alcohol and finsihing resin. Sand with 220 then 320 dry. Clean with wax/grease remover and paper towel.

Buy a jar of the BVN pin hole filler for about $6.00 and follow the directions, The directions say to apply the stuff all over the surface with a paper towel. (It has the consistency of toothpaste.) Let dry for an hour and prime. When I am lazy (remember I hate painting) I use a can of rustoleum primer well shaken and slightly heated with my 30 year old Monokote heat gun.

The photos show the "magic" jar of goop from BVM.

The Ace R/C High Glider motor pod. The pod is made of balsa and plywood dents filled with lite spackle and final sanded with 320. I applied (1) coat of finishing resin with a 1:1 mixture of z-poxy and denatured alcohol applied with a crappy disposable epoxy brush. Let dry over night and sand with 220 then 320 wet/dry. Add the BVN goop...wipe off completely after one hour and light coat of cheap primer. Let dry over night, final sand with 320 wet (spit), wax and grease remover to clean and a final quick coat of gray primer.

The same process was used for the Dirty Birdy rudder that I forgot to prime when I had the fuselage professionally primed with auto primer. The rudder came out just great using the above process in my work shop.

Other photos show the Dirty Birdy ready for final color (like the original) using PPG paints with urethane clear. The stab will be Monokote about 1/4 beyond the filet, overlapping the paint edge about 1/8" and a bead of clear nail polish over the edge.

Rusty Dose
Team Futaba

Classic Fundamentals...a tutorial...post your building techniques HERE!

How to make 90 degree/perpendicular edges...FAST!

I love to build and prefer to build fast. One corner of my laminated workbench top has a maple guide screwed to the end. The maple piece is above the workbench by about 1/8 of an inch. Place material to be sanded against guide...run sanding block along edge of bench with the material sticking out a little... a few swipes and your have a 90 degree edge!

The workbench is constructed from a 1 1/8" x 39 1/2" x 63" laminated wood table top from IKEA (about $120?). The top is mounted on (2) kitchen counter base cabinets that have (2) drawers and doors with (3) shelves. The base cabinets (IKEA) are floating on (8) adjustable legs (IKEA) and connected together using 1" x 3" along the outside edge and another couple of 1" x 3" diagonal cross braces on the cabinet backs. There is a space between the cabinet bases for my stool and industrial cardboard barrel/trash can. The top is screwed from the bottom and top...carefully aligning and leveling.

The top is sanded with long sanding blocks, electric sander and (5) or (6) coats of Minwax clear applied. Finally, old school paste wax is hand rubbed to further protect the top. I periodically drag a sanding block across the top to remove CA drops...a little more wax and even another coat of clear if I feel like it.

Rusty Dose
Team Futaba

Classic Fundamentals...a tutorial...post your building techniques HERE!

Making stand-offs...round, light and strong.

Sometimes one needs to mount a component..."floating" above the surface for cooling, like a speed control or ?. Menards, Lowe's and Home Depot have "plug drills" in a variety of sizes. I laminate 1/8" lite ply to 3/8" or 1/2" balsa then put the plug cutter in a drill press. Make as many as you need and a few extra for the next project.

I then wrap carbon fiber "toe" (can't be the correct spelling) around the outside and add thin CA. The photo shows the stand-offs used in my COMP-ARF Integral to float the Hacker speed control away from the fuselage side to enhance cooling. (3) stand-offs are glued balsa end to fuselage using ZAP green medium CA.

Rusty Dose
Team Futaba

You are right, it should be "tow".

Great thread, great techniques!

Here is one of my favorites. I hate trying to sand down the leading edge of control surfaces to a symmetrical bevel to the centerline. Years ago I started cutting back the surface a bit. Then I glue a piece of triangle stock to the front of the surface. This makes a perfectly symmetrical bevel with the centerline exactly in the center of the surface, better than I could ever sand.

After doing this for ailerons, elevators, and rudders I will never go back to the old carving/sanding method! I have no pictures of the process, sorry.

Greetings,

I humbly submit my [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9184614]method for cutting trailing edge stock to fit a double tapered wing as posted in another thread.[/link]

Best regards,

George

Rusty, what is the "blue snake" gizmo located to the left of your Sharpie markers? I assume it's a duplicator of some sort but I've not come across anything like it before...

It's a flexible ruler. Michaels caries them.

Rusty,

between the cracks, I see that you are building a Deception! It'd would be great to see some snaps of your build as you progress. It's always interesting to see other modelers techniques. I like your use of CF to reinforce the FW gear section.

What retracts will be installed on her? Are you building from a kit or from scratch? Foam wings?

Just curious.

David.

the blue ruler, is also known as a curve replicator, woodcraft carries them as well...

Classic Fundamentals...post your building ideas HERE!

The curvy blue ruler...it was purchased as previously posted by a contributor at Woodcraft. Woodcraft is a specialty retail store for the wood working crowd. The chain of retail stores has hand tools, power tools (the best of the best) and has clinics virtually every weekend in their store's class room wood shop. My wife was a good sport last Fall...I signed her up for a "Band saw class", she made a stamp holder in the shape of an eagle head.

I use the ruler to measure curved surfaces and create/replicate curved edges.

Here are the photos from first post of this thread showing the hand tools I use the most.

Rusty Dose
Team Futaba