Blackie

Tony,

It's OK, no hot. Let me ask you a question, just how many ARF's have you actually seen fly apart? In my two years I have yet to see one that was not well put together.

On mine I do make an effort to re-enforce the glue lines with either epoxy or CA depending on where the glue line is located.

Randy

Jim_McIntyre

...

and the joints you can't get to?
You obviously have more faith than I do.

Are there good ARFs? Sure.

How do you tell a safe ARF from unsafe?
It doesn't fall apart, even after many flights...

Seems like a drastic test to me, potentially dangerous too.

I'll stick to creating and inspecting my own glue joints thanks.

Blackie

It seems as though we are going back and forth here. Jim I respect your opinions but as I stated in previous postings I am just not into building right now. I know that there are occasions that ARF's do defect in the air and yes its a chance that I am willing to take. I have heard that some of the manufactures will compensate depending on the circumstances. *shrugs*

Randy

Jim_McIntyre

Yes, we have been going back and forth on this topic.

I'll go back again but, I think it's worth it:

I could care less (well, I might care a bit ) if you're out of pocket for an ARF that comes apart in the air.
But , If it hurts someone in the process ... then I care .

For me, it's not a question of value or experience, it's a question of safety .

And let's skip going back to bad builders incurring safety issues ok? There are some problems you have control of, and some you don't. Sure I've seen some truly abysmal creations but, at least they didn't skip gluing in hidden places simply to make better piecework numbers. I also think most notice bad glue joints while progressing through finishing stages... ARFs? Slap on the shelf paper, it hides everything.

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

And as we all know, kit or scratch built planes NEVER come apart midair. LOL

TomM

I've been following this for a while. While I've never had an ARF in almost 30 years of modeling, and I love building, I have nothing against them and probably will get one soon, if only for the feeling of flying free from "emotional attachment".

However the one argument I don't see much weight in is the safety issue. For all the folks stating they won't / can't rely on the build quality of an ARF, that they'll collapse in mid-air,... do you dissamble your transmitters, receivers, and servos to look for cold solder joints to redo, replace the cheap caps and pots with mil spec parts, ect. Do you take the engine apart to x-ray and magnaflux the crank and case?
Probably no. These items are "built to cost" most likely in some far east low wage workshop, and we rely on other people and procedures to do the job. I see no great difference then in having a factory build the plane, giving it a visual once-over and trusting it in the air just as I do the radios and motors.

Tom

Crashem

Here Here !!!

Jim do you check all these Items before sending you baby up?
Questions about safety and All!


The bottom line is you build it/Buy it and it crashes its your responsibilty. Period end of story.

Jim_McIntyre

As a matter of fact, I do, although I admit, I'm probably in the minority. Being an Electronics Engineer, I know what to look for but, with modern techniques like SMT, wave soldering etc. I'm looking more for spare parts that may cause a short than I am a cold solder joint.

As for engines, yes I disassemble new engines before turning them over, don't you? It's amazing the crud (eg. metal filings) you can find in them.

And, I have seen enough ARFs fall apart to annoy me enough to continue with this annoying thread. Others have too, the evidence is there for all to see, you dont have to scan the ARF forums long to find someone complaining about a firewall falling out or some other catastrauphic failure. Check the trashbin at your local field, it's full of ARF evidence (unglued spars, crappy wood, missing shear web, etc. etc.)

gpmikemorse-RCU

Hey, this could be the start of an interesting thread on its own.

Let's see, I've been in the hobby a few years, and I've seen 5 planes come apart in the sky:

1. Wing dowel broke, lawn dart--KIT, no idea why.
2. Horiz stab came off--KIT modified to be unsafe by builder.
3. Wings came off--KIT built by guy with poor reputation for quality.
4. Wings folded--ARF, may have been damaged in prior crash.
5. Firewall pulled out--ARF, damaged in prior crash.

It's funny, before I actually thought about this list, I would have said kits were safer. Except for the first, which is a mystery to me, the rest were neither the fault of the kit or ARF manufacturer, but the pilot.

Jim_McIntyre

Exactly!

Ultimately what I fly is my responsibility.... the only way I know how to ensure it's safe to the best of my ability is to build it myself.

Some of my flying buddies read this thread and are quick to tease me about my 'ARF' helicopter (Raptor 30). It's fun but, it raises a good point. I disassmbled my ARF heli and rebuilt correcting dozens of mistakes along the way. I'm convinced it would have blown apart if I hadn't done this.

ARF aircraft are different... they're glued together (mostly ), you don't have the option to break it down (readily) and check the build.

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

Hmm... you mean the same forum where every other thread is somebody talking about putting a 50cc gasoline engine where the manufacturer calls for 1.08 - 1.20 2stroke? Oh... that one!

Check the same trashcan 20yrs ago, and you'd find the same unglued spars, crappy wood, missing shearwebs, etc. etc. on kit built planes. I've seen enough evident of piss-poor workmanship on planes proudly displayed by their "builders" at swapmeets. I will take a factory jig-built quality ARF over those sorry things any day.

Crashes are a fact of life in RC. Way more people flying ARFs than kits equals way more people crashing ARFs than kits. Most ARFs nowadays are built far better than the average Joe builder than muster. Good luck getting the average Joe builder, pumped full of pride and balsa dust, to admit that.

Jim_McIntyre

Both good ponts Volfy. I can't speak to the quality of other peoples workmanship ..... and don't rely on it.

Steve Guinn

:bananahea

" Theory of Evolution " ???

Jim_McIntyre

That would be the one where you randomly create new things and the mistakes die a timely death?

Yup! That sums up the ARF movement for me.

TomM

Jim,
I do give my engines and radios the once-over to make sure there's nothing blatently wrong. I'll check for metal filings and bearing smoothness. I'll check the radio for obvious points of strain and vibration failure and switch/stick quality. (been a NASA micro-electronics instructor/tech/QA for 20+ years- plenty of my work in orbit now) If I open the back of a radio and IF I used my professional judgement/criteria, I'd say they are all a pretty poor design/workmanship. I'm not trained in consumer electronics price vs. quality issues, however for the price and what it's supposed to do, I think it's great. I'f I'm going to analyze this stuff completely and re-design each part, I'm gonna ask to be on the payroll.

What the heck was my point.....
Someone like you or I could probably look at an ARF while it's still in the box and give a pretty good judgement on it's quality/airworthyness. We'll pick the good ones. The newcomer can't. The same way he/she can't build a kit or from scratch without some guidance/experience. I see no difference in helping someone build a kit or pick out an ARF. Without the help, they're more likely to be successful with an ARF.

My other point.
If you're not willing to completely strip your radio, test each componant, surge test, 3im, temp extreme freq stability, pull tests with strain gauges, check for leaching under the solder....trace each part number from the supplier, whatever..... you are pretty much relying on the radio link, the most critical part of modeling, assembled by minimum wage workers, by a company who will use a 10 cent capacitor instead of a 50 cent capacitor where ever they can, who will use 5cm of wire with little strain relief instead of 5.5cm to cut costs.... you get the picture.
You're pretty much accepting their blind promise (and through past reputation.....but notice a lot of servo failures and computer radio "bugs" in the industry lately?) that they built it right and you can fly with it.
Instead of taking this blind promise in an arf, it's easier for me to inspect it and judge the quality, and see where more improvements can be made even before I get to the sales register compared to a radio or engine. You can tell it a tail flexes too easy, and if a wing bends too much, how thick the firewall should be, servo tray stiffness...

I have a heli too. I make improvements and mods where I can. I don't do load tests on the bearings, shear tests on the blade screws, fatigue tests on the plastic resin. Through past reputation, I'm taking their word that they got most of the bugs out.

If you passed a yard sale one day, and there were a transmitter and and completed plane on the table. Both had a sign on them that said "condition:unknown". Both were an unknown brand. Which one would be easier to assess the quality. If I really NEEDED neither, but only had enough cash on me for one, I'd pick the plane.

I like this debate,
Tom

Jim_McIntyre

Allow me to sum up what you're saying if I can Tom.
There are varying degrees of effort we're willing to invest to ensure a degree of comfort that any product is safe.

I agree that it's easier to check an ARF than a radio (especially since my degree is almost 20 years old and I've worked in software/firmware ever since).

I have to admit 'm a little uncomfortable with the quality of commercial radios but, that's another thread and I've already been beat up enough about this one.

As for the yard sale question, I'd probably pass on both deals and spend my money on wood.

Blackie

Jim, I can't think of any other way to get around the ARF as once more I have no desire to build so if its safety you are concerned about I guess you're just going to have to make that trip to Austin, TX after all, and start building my planes


Well humm, unless you would want me to leave the hobby all together


Randy

TomM

When I started in the 70's (I took many years off) I'd see many kit builts and scratch builts, and think "Are they going to FLY that crooked POS?" A few times it ended with a wing-fold during a loop. Poor workmanship spans all types of models.
I just think today's afrs, by process of elimination and word of mouth survival, are mostly quality planes that only might need a little "touch-up".
There's nowhere near the pride of a homebuilt, and that's a major part of the hobby to me. BUT I'm still impressed with a lot of arfs- I still wonder why I haven't got one yet. If I add up the
kit, the covering, trim, hardware, linkage, misc... I'm probably paying $10 less than the arf.

My motorcycle is an "arf" - I didn't build it. I trust Honda knows how to put it together. When I go to bike shows, there nothing quite like the sight of a scratch built, custom made frame, S&S engine, fully chromed, hand stitched leather, 120hp chopper. All the paint, decals, and accessories I put on my Shadow, it won't equal that custom bike. However, day in and day out, mile after mile to work and back, my bike runs better!

Crashem

More Like 10.00 or more then the Cost of the ARF.

Got a World Models super sport 40 for 99.00 a couple years back.

two color trim figure 3 rolls monokote ultra kote
Wheels, Pilot, fuel tank Whats that cost about 30.00-40.00


Remember that kit builders incur a much higher entry cost! All the great tools we all have in our shops. (Drill press, Dremel, assorted files, sanding blocks, XACTO Knives and saws etc.) All of these things while not 100% essential to assembling that first kit do add to the overall cost.

Martyno

My many tools etc do come in handy for other jobs too of course. It is good to be able to fix things around the house, car, boat etc.

I also take pride in building quality into my models. (eg. reinforcing triangle stock with sheet balsa and using "real" adhesives ... not hot melt).
I don't expect to have the firewall pull out in a crash landing, or the gear rip out easily.

I also make room for foam around the tank and mods to ensure the key elements (eg. battery and tank) are well supported ... and removeable.

Crashem

And your point would be?

I was simply stating a fact.

That to build quality models it takes tools some of which an average homeowner may not have.
These tools will last a lifetime but do cost money and need to be factored in to the cost of each model

Martyno

Point was to partly justify the cost of the tools.

I didn't dissagree with your point about relative cost. but remain in the camp of those who believe building quality is best assured when a good builder enjoys and does the work in a non-production line setting.

For the rest, the ARF will suffice.

Crashem

No need to justify Cost of tools in my book.

Grandfather allways said to do a job right you need the right tools.

Some of my tools are almost twenty years old. I consider them the best investment I made whether I'm using them to fixi the sink, Build a Kit or assemble an ARF!!!!

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

So when you get an ARF, they build it for you for free!

NOT!

Come on, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if they can sell it to you for what you can build it for, they're not making any money!

And you guys are saying "Gee, isn't that NICE of them?"

NO! They are not in business to be NICE. They are in business to make a profit.

So how can they make one cheaper than you can build one???

Think about it!

(Insert "Jeopardy" music here)

Crashem

Ever heard of volume discounts?

real simple concept the more you buy the better your discount is.

For a company that makes tens of thousands of models their material costs are much lower then the average builders.

So yes MinnFlyer the can and do make one cheaper then you or I can build one..

That's way its called mass production!!!

Is it Better?

Well that was the point of this thread. I think?


Gotta question has anybody who disliked ARF's before this thread started changed their minds or vice versa?????

I seriously doubt it!!!!!!!!