Jim_McIntyre

No apology necessary. I think it was the sarcasm that made it confusing, it's hard to convey in text.

AirplaneDan98

Geistware,

I started building on my first plane and now I consider myself and "almost expert" builder and a "good" flyer. I think if you would have built all of you planes you would probably be building some nice ones now. As for your friend, he loves building more than flying. But I bet he would love to be able to fly his birds.

And as far as this "emotionally attachment" to planes you build verses planes you buy, I've never been terribly upset when my plane went down. The one that hurt the most was when I totaled a friends plane. Maybe it's because I can't afford to buy a two or three hundred dollar plane every month to keep me happy. It's still cheaper to build than to buy. Dan

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

There isn't a "Pride Factor" when you build an ARF......flying something that you put blood sweat and tears into....priceless. I'm hoping to fly my bipe in a week....man, that's going to be scary.
1. It's the largest/heaviest plane I've ever built
2. It's the nicest looking plane I've ever built
3. It's been the hardest plane I've ever built
4. It's my first bipeplane.

AirplaneDan98

Good luck to you tmproff.

I also wanted to say that my first plane was a Dynaflight Bobcat glider. It took me seven months to build, but during that time I was flying my mentor's Lazy Bee. I'm sure that most clubs have a trainer that a beginner can use. And as for building crooked, she did fly!! And as far as building it week, not so. I know for a fact that I used to much glue on all the joints. Man did I go heavy on the CA, lol. I think that would be a mistake beginners make, not using to little glue. Dan

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Originally posted by AirplaneDan98
I agree with Jim_McIntyre in that if you just fly it's not much different than nintendo.

I have to totally disagree on this one. There are no consequences in Nintendo, and so there is no pucker factor, and also significantly less satisfaction and pride in doing it right.

When I land a high-dollar turbine model on a short field, on a gusty day, I feel both incredible pressure and also (if I'm lucky!) great pride in a job well done... which I've never gotten from video games. It won't matter whether the model I'm flying was built by me or built for me by someone else in such a case. Successfully flying and landing an actual physical model (not a virtual one in a video game) in conditions can be immensely rewarding in its own right.

Also, the look of sheer rapture on a student's face the first time he greases a landing on his R/C model is way beyond anything I've ever seen from a video game. But maybe you just enjoy video games a heck of a lot more than my friends and I do ? ;-)

Like someone else already posted - if someone gets enjoyment out of flying rather than building, why do you feel the need to try to demean their acomplishments and take that enjoyment away from them ?

BTW, I build most of my planes (as well as many for friends), so I'm not anti kit-building - just anti-anti-ARF !

Gordon

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

Bigger boys get bigger toys. It's a progression.......You get a Nintendo/Playstation when you're 10...play the heck out of $30 games and have fun......Later, when you have more money, you can buy the big fancy expencive ARF's. Yes, they're more fun, Yes there is a definite risk of loosing money, but I have to agree, it's still similar to the nintendo. You really didn't have to put much effort into building an ARF. Kinda like your parents buying you a brand new 2002 Camero when you just got your license. Are you going to respect it? HECK NO! Saving up till your 17 to buy the 1990 Honda......Now that's a different story.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

So, if I have to save up for my ARF, then the ARF is okay, but if someone buys it for me, it's not ??

Also, based on the anti-ARF logic, you should BUILD your own car, just like I did ! ;-)

Gordon

Jim_McIntyre

I think there's a fine line that keeps getting tromped in this conversation and that's why all the controversy.

I don't think anyone is trying to (at least I'm not) demean the accomplishments of 'ARFers' (<-new word?).

I do think that some of us feel that;
a) Their popularity pollutes hobby for 'purists' (whatever that means)
b) They open a whole new range of safety issues
c) Some of us have a general dislike for 'cookie-cutter' copies

I fly at what I presume is a typical club. The ARFs have begun to outnumber the kit/scratch built. I don't like this fact but, I don't dislike the people flying them, not do I demean their accomplishments.

I do dislike the following;
- modelling discussions with these people is limited to discussing product.
- when their aircraft disintegrates in the air.
- when they are grounded for weeks for what, for me, would be a minor repair
- I don't have time to fix all the ARFs that get bashed so, they leave the hobby with a bad feeling because they can't fix their own plane and can't justify (or afford) another.

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

Funny you asked, My first car was built the year I was born (1976) It was a honda accord, and my father brought it home on a trailer and bought it for $200. It took him and I almost a year to get it running entirely overhauling the engine. It was a great time for my father and I to bond, and I learned a ton about cars. I loved that car and kept it for many years (had no radio or AC, and I live in Houston!!!) It was ugly as sin (lime green), but I sure took care of it.

AirplaneDan98

I spend a couple months building my plane verses someone taking theirs out of a box and assembling it, am I wrong to think that I am a better modeler than them? I might not be a better flyer, but I think I did more to deserve my rank of good flyer.

Gordon Mc, I admire the fact that you built your own car and I hope to be able to do the same someday. Dan

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Originally posted by Jim_McIntyre
I think there's a fine line that keeps getting tromped in this conversation and that's why all the controversy.


Indeed, Jim. That's often the case.


I don't think anyone is trying to (at least I'm not) demean the accomplishments of 'ARFers' (<-new word?).

Well, let's examine the point that I responded to - that unless you built your aircraft from a kit, you are not much better than a Nintendo player.

So, imagine you are out at the flying field one fine morning. A student who has been learning to fly (on an ARF, how dare he ! ;-) has been bouncing his landings all over the place, just not getting this whole "flare" thing, but suddenly it clicks, and he does three absolutely perfect landings. As he comes rushing back to the pits, with a grin that's wider than the Mississippi, he gushes "Hey guys - did you see that ???!!! Weren't those just the greatest landings ever ???".... and in response, one of the peanut gallery pipes up with "Yeah, I saw it - but since you didn't build that thing from a kit, your accomplishment is no more of a big deal than getting a decent score on a video game".

Now tell me that the above did not demean the guy's accomplishment, which he was justifiably proud of until that comment.

Gordon

AirplaneDan98

Here's how I see it. Flying IS just like a video game. I have told several people that it is the best video game. When I got into the hobby, I packed up my Nintendo's because they didn't compare to the fun. So if all you do is "buy and fly", then it's nothing more than a video game. But if you build, you do something that you can't do with a video game. And that's what makes this a hobby to me. This is how I feel, that's all. Dan

Crashem

Jim,

I thought you said that one of the bad things about ARFers (your word not mine) was that they didn't have the skills to fix their own. Now I see why, you're fixing them for them. Stop doing that.

Try explaining instead (I think thats called teaching)

Also if you get a bunch of them together in the same place at the same time you could explain it once and reach a wider audience.
(could be confused with? A class maybe?)

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

Gordon, I truely believe that new flyers should start with an ARF. They do not yet have the skills necessary (in most cases) to correctly build a plane. And also, it's quite important to have a good flying trainer for them to learn on. But I do believe that they shouldn't be stuck in that rut. I just believe that the rewards of building are so high. Kinda like living life with only one eye open.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

I guess I just haven't been keeping up with the latest video games then.... I wasn't aware that there were any that can kill innocent bystanders if you don't take the game seriously.

Gordon

AirplaneDan98

I think flying is like a video game, but the planes are not toys. If handled wrong, there are consequences. But the overall flying technique is not much different than a video game.

tinman

My Feedback: (13)

any1 ever hear of "to each his own" if arfs work for ya go for it, if kits work for ya go for it....we all pay same dues to ama and we don't have seperate rates. i have and like both myself and don't look down my nose at anybodies plane regardless of where they got/made it. i just like to see the club members havin fun..
imho peace -Tinman-

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

I totally agree about the rewards of building - I spend about 3 hours every night on building, and absolutely love it. So much so, that I regularly build airplanes for friends just because I don't seem to be crashing frequently enough to keep my building tables occupied with my own projects ! ;-)

The point that I'm trying (probably badly) to make is simply that just because I enjoy building as well as flying, that doesn't mean I should insist that everyone should build. If I enjoy building, I'll do it; if I enjoy golfing, I'll do it... but it's my choice to do so, not someone else's. I have the freedom and the right to make those decisions, so I see no reason why someone else should not.

Later,
Gordon

Jim_McIntyre

Tromped the line again.

- No ones belittling the Student de-bouncing their landing.
- No ones trying to stop others from ARFing (expanding the language now are we )
- Someone (me and a few others) is denouncing the negative effect ARFs are having on our hobby.

Yes, it's a fine line but, let's try not to overstep it anymore. It just leads to more bad rapport.

Jim_McIntyre

I actually tried this as part of our Wings program.
There was some interest... from the builders.....

Crashem

If people aren't intrested in learning how to fix or maintain their equipment. Then Don't waste your time fixing it for them.

That's really interesting to think that only the kit builders were interested in learning how to repair their planes.

But agian maybe the ARFers figured it wasn't ment for them since you fix them for them.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

No ? That's not what I read right here on this forum.... I read that if you fly an ARF, rather than building a kit, then you're not much better than a Nintendo player - doesn't matter how well you fly, land etc. Now, just because the remark was not made face-to-face (as in my "imagine this" scenario), that doesn't mean there were not also some ARF'ers reading this forum who were equally proud of their accomplishments until they read that condescending remark, which most definitely does belittle those accomplishments.

I hear your comments about local hobby shop's not stocking everything they used to, etc., and am not arguing at all with that ... but those comments are one one side of that "line" you mention, and telling ARF'ers that they're not much better than Nintendo players is most definitely on the other side of the line IMO.

Regs,
Gordon

Jim_McIntyre

You're right Gordon, that is crossing the same line.
Sometimes the verbalization filters aren't on when you type.

I must admit, this whole thread has surprised me about my own crusty sentiments.

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

Enough of this.....everyone has made their point, noone is going to change their stance...both sides have good points.....I'm unscubscribing from this thread...

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

So, do we have to kiss & make up now, or wot ? ;-)

BTW - re your comment about not being able to get balsa at your LHS etc. - dunno if it's the same up there in Canada, but down here we have a chain of arts & crafts stores called "Michaels". They sell everything from baubles & beads to balsa - because balsa is used in various hobbies other than R/C. Maybe you have a similar chain that could save your bacon when you are short of wood.

Personally, I do so much building that I just mail-order several big boxes of balsa, ply, lite-ply, spruce etc every now & then, and always have a stock on hand. (My LHS cares only about R/C cars)

Regs,
Gordon