Jim_McIntyre

Actually, I buy in bulk from Trillium Balsa here in Canada. When I need a quick fix, a local friend keeps a good supply on hand.

We also have Michaels, I've begun buying paint, clamps, XActo tools etc. from them.

Dope, I now buy through a local full-scale airfield. Most other things I can no longer get at the LHS (which seems to have little interest in ordering building supplies) I order online.

If Home Depot ever starts selling Saito and OS, I'll have no need to enter an LHS ever again. :cry:

Blackie

So if I had a kit that I knew nothing about would you have time to help me with it?

Randy

Jim_McIntyre

I had a couple thoughts when reading this. Intent is not always obvious in text. I'll answer as if it was a straightforward question...?

I try to help anyone who asks. Given that I
- compete in Scale, Funfly, combat, IMAC and quickie racing
- trying to learn 3D heli flying
- teach software design part time
- teach flying occasionaly
- am married with 2 very young children
- work a very demanding job offering virtually unlimited overtime

Time to help others is very limited at this point in time.
Still, I did manage to repair several ARFs (and kits) last year (absolutely no time this year). I always keep a building board open to help others.
In fact, I had someone over recently to help set up a troublesome engine and have another person coming over to help with a likely wing incidence problem on their biplane.

So ... yes... if you're not in a rush and can fit to my schedule.

rc-sport

My Feedback: (12)

Somebody turn off this stupid thread. Mr Moderator have mercy.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Who exactly is it that is forcing you to read it ?

Gordon

rc-sport

My Feedback: (12)

No one but its getting so redundant, just let it go

Blackie

rc_sport,

This is what you would call a debate between ARF's and KIT's, and if this bothers you that much as Gordon, said you don't have to read it. Now! if you want a different type of debate then by calling my threads stupid can surely start one.

Besides who's more stupid those that read and complain this thread's stupid? Are, those that read and either participate or leave quietly?


Randy

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

You have the patience and desire to build and I commend you for it. I do not. If I could get someone to build a kit for the price of assembling an ARF, I would do it!

As far as emotional attachment? I don't get it. I enjoy flying, I have an emotional attachment to my family. I never let the two get confused.

Jim_McIntyre

No offence but, not having "the patience and desire to build ", you won't get it.

As for emotional attachment, I couldn't begin to describe the pride I felt when I heard my 3 year old loudly proclaim "that's my daddy's airplane" from the stands at the world championships. It put everything into perspective, I no longer cared how I did on the scoreboard, I'd already won!

lnorris

My Feedback: (1)

Jim, that IS cool.

I don't know about you guys but when I build a plane, a part of me goes into it. Beyond the literal cuts and scraps I get when building it I put in my own touches, part of my own personality and pride.

The difference between Built and ARF is most evident at maiden flight. I'm a bit nervous with an ARF but I'm almost sick when taking up a plane I've built. Likewise, I'm happy on an ARF's maiden landing but you could hook a generator up to me and power a small city when the plane that I built comes in it's first time, or second, or third... well it takes awhile to wear off.

Blackie

OK! Jim, not everyone's the same, I myself am kind of like Geistware, in this since of not having the patience and desire to build. You are pretty much 99% correct that not knowing how to repair or fix a broken plane are the results of not ever building one, but there is that 1% that would not have any problems. I can't say that I'm never going to finish building the one I have right now but the likely hood would be that I will and many more after. I'm still on the young side yet and have 5 more years before I can retire so maybe after then I will have a change of patience and desire, who knows maybe sooner.

As far as right now I have a great desire to fly. After more thought! I think its more patience then desire for the lack of kit building. Once I put my mind to a project I have no patience but the desire, its very strong. Take for instance the trailer I just built it took no patience it was pure desire and everything went up right then and there, no waiting what so ever, and this has been the case for all of my previous projects. Now the fact that I am lacking in patience (bad thing) could be in relation to my type of work, I'm a PC tech and have to deal with 60 customers solely by myself 8 + hours out of a day and this does take patience, so once I'm done for the day I believe my patience has dwindled down a bit. Of course patience is part of life so I keep a reserve for the cases that truly need them. *shrugs*

Randy

can773

My Feedback: (1)

Thats good that you guys get that feeling when your own creation takes to the air, personally I get that feeling anytime I have a good flying airplane, if it flies like a brick even if I built it then she is fit for the pit!!!

It matters not to me if I built it, but I take great pride in being able to put a 16 point roll on a string

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Okay - I have a question for the folks who are disturbed that the ARFers don't know how to build. So far, we seem to have been looking at this in a binary fashion, but there's more than just 2 levels here IMO.

First, let's consider that it's an ARF, not a RF - so there is some assembly required - gluing wings together, glueing fin and stab on, rigging the controls, etc. Not quite like building from sticks, but the point is, there is some limited construction involved.

Now let's look at a composite aircraft - fibreglass fuselage and wings. There's definitely more construction work here than in the ARF, but generally not nearly as much work as building from sticks.

Next comes the fibreglass fuselage and foam wings, presheeted with balsa or obechi. Might involve more work than the composite aircraft. Then comes the fibreglass fuselage with foam wings that are not pre-sheeted. Then comes the fibreglass fuselage with built-up wings, and so on and on, down through built-up kits with few parts, ones with hundreds of parts, building from plans instead of kits, and then building from plans that you yourself designed.

So, my question for you is this - if you genuinely dislike ARFs because their owners do limited construction, do you similarly dislike ARC's, composite aircraft, foam wings, fibreglass fuselages etc ?

Just trying to see where the "line" is between "that counts as building", and "that doesn't" ... and I'm sure it will differ from person to person, but it would be interesting to see what the consensus is.

Regs,
Gordon

Blackie

In addition, as far as the feeling of accomplishment, well thats a whole different thing. I would one day like to hear those words but that is not likely as I have no childeren

Jim_McIntyre

Can't say I "dislike ARFs because their owners do limited construction ", I think it's more their impact on the hobby industry, newcomers, social interactions, ad public perspective. The "dumbing of the hobby" as it were.

As for "similarly dislike ARC's ...", well, yeah, I suppose. I'm a bit annoyed when I have to compete against an all fibreglass jet that comes complete with molded panel lines, rivets etc.

For example, Pavel Fencl had a beautiful Jenny at the World's:


Literally thousands of hours in this beautiful model and his flight was picture perfect.

Unfortunately, he flew after one of these jets. All media, spectators etc. were focused on the jet starting up while Pavel was in the post flight picture circle. I was the only one to congratulate him on an excellent flight.

No, I can't change human nature in a world, especially one where people intentionally fly passenger jets into buildings but, I don't have to like it!

Thankfully, the static judges weren't ignorant.

Jim_McIntyre

I was responding to geistware's comment on emotional attachment. I don't require my children's pride, that's icing on the cake. My feeling of accomplishment isn't an ego thing. To me it's internal. It's the pride any craftsman takes in their work.

I think of it like kinetic art. It not only looks good but, it does something amazing too. What's more, the world would have been just a little less interesting if I didn't create it.

can773

My Feedback: (1)

Thats competition Jim, and it aint fair. I had the (un?)fortunate experience of flying after Cristophe Paysant LR (the world champion), Akiba, and Hatta..........how do you think that made me look to the judges......although it was real cool to be right beside those guys

lnorris

My Feedback: (1)

can773: How do you feel about those who use gyros to look good? How would you feel about it in competition? They help people fly and that's what the hobby is about, right?

Blackie

Jim, it sounds like you might have mis interpreted my post. I was just condoning that feeling you must of had during that moment when your child gave praise to you.

Randy

can773

My Feedback: (1)

Gyros are not allowed in competition so it is really not a concern of mine.

lnorris

My Feedback: (1)

But if they where? I'm just looking for something as a valid analogy.

What about at the field? You do a 16-point roll on a string and then somebody does the same, only he's using a gyro and all sorts of computer mixing.

Note: Once again I'll assert I'm not anti-ARF. I fly both planes I build and ARF's with my main gripe being that ARF is surplanting kits in the hobby making good kits hard to find.

can773

My Feedback: (1)

If they were they would be cheating, and likely no one would know or they would be disqualified so how I can I worry about something that I dont know exists???

At the field I dont compete if Joe needs a gyro to do a 16 point roll than good for him, I take pride in my personal accomplishments and I certainly would not say that gyros are ruining aerobatics, that would be a little rediculous...they bring some of the more advanced aerobatics to the masses that would otherwise not be talented enough to accomplish them and that my friend is a great thing....

The fact that you need a gyro to TR your plane to the ground does not ruin my hobby in anyway shape or form.

lnorris

My Feedback: (1)

Yes, I know that would be cheating. But like I said, I was looking for an analogy.

And of course you'd be proud of your accomplishments irregardless of what others do. You're a great flyer who is a mature individual that does not need outside validation. This is how I feel about my planes. I build planes for myself, not for others.

But now let's take it one step further. Say that usage of gyros becomes so common that planes and electronics are built around them so almost can't avoid using them. You have to really search to find electronics that doesn't use gyros. And the companies producing those are going out of business because of the greater demand for gyros-built equipment.

I know it's a stretch but it's the best analogy I can come up with. You and I both KNOW that it won't happen but bear with me and consider the possibility of it happening.

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

Let me get this straight.
Since Frank Noll, Mike McConnville, Don Adams, and others have someone else build their planes, is this still considered a dumbing of the hobby? If this is the company I keep, I don't mind being viewed as dumb. While Mike and Don are the only people I have seen compete with ARF's (well Mark Jorgenson has flown one in competition also but it is one he borrowed from Mike), Frank has someone build his planes for him. I find just as much "pride" in having my family see me finish 3rd in my first IMAC contest as you had when your child proclaimed the pride in her daddy's work.

FilipM

Can't say I "dislike ARFs because their owners do limited construction ", I think it's more their impact on the hobby industry, newcomers, social interactions, ad public perspective. The "dumbing of the hobby" as it were."


Ok man this really pisses me off. I fly mostly ARFs and have since my trainer last December. Do you think I'm dumb? Do I have poor social interactions with the other flyers? Justify that statement or please kindly shut the hell up. Lemme guess, maybe if I built kits I'd be more patient with your trite superior BS and wouldn’t be telling you off like this... Right?

Impact on the hobby industry? Are you nuts? The quality of ARFs has skyrocketed in the past few years - and each new ARF seems to get better. The GP Venus ARF is way better than the Super Sportster ARF of just a few months ago, for example. And this only because people are buying them in droves and competition drives quality up. So in fact this should make you happy because these ARFs won't blow up.

And what do you mean by "public perspective"? Do you actually think anyone outside the hobby cares or even knows if its kit built or an ARF?

As for and building. I modify all of my ARF planes including lightening, new structures, repairs, changing the servo setup, adding servos to the tail, glassing wing joints as I see fit, modifying the wheelpants, recovering large sections of the plane, adding extra trim in monokote, and so on and so on. I will even paint the landing gear on my new plane, just for the hell of it so it looks better.

I even built a whole kit plane a few years ago when I was in the hobby for a litttle bit. It was the early GP Super Sportster, you know the one with the huge blocks of balsa for the nose and unshaped wing LE that you have to sand a lot. Does this make me worth more as person or even a better RC pilot? Hell no. It just means I built a kit. And just recently I built a wing for my friend’s Doghouse Extreme. It took a few hours some CA and epoxy... So what? It’s just a plane and looks exactly like the inside of some ARF wings I tore the covering off. Balsa and glue...

I don't know why you have this feeling about ARFs and more disturbingly the people (as in individual human beings, real people not some concept you have) who fly them but I find it insulting, cheap, arrogant and ultimately pathetic. Get a life and some real problems...