hugo111

All planes crash, unlucky that's all.

But it seems common with scale guys that they put in so much time and effort in their planes that they seem to believe they own the sky when they come out. I keep away from them when they fly if i can and call every maneuver if I'm in the air when they (rarely) come out.

(have nothing against scale guys, most are friends - just noticed unusual and common behaviour at the field)

Cheers

stinger40

I hate to break this to ya, but anybody can 3D a profile.

RC MANIAC119

My Feedback: (14)

Stinger.......why do you want to open that can of worms?

I won't tell you how many students I've trained, that have flown for many years, and still can't 3d a profile.......and I won't go near your implied remark that Profiles are so easy to fly even for an unskilled person...........

So I think it's best if we just leave this alone.........

rambo

My Feedback: (1)

Well for my 2 cents worth, i am a victim of midair as anyone who flies in events will eventually be.Mine happened on a warm sunday funfly event complete with news crew etc.I just launched my great planes pitts special and flew for about 3 minutes and turned left at end of pattern to start doing more aerobatics, (absolutely we do not do aerobatics over runway), anyways i kicked on my smoke & just proceded to do a roll when out of nowhere came a senior telemaster that had been lumbering around the airspace at 1/2 everyone elses speed & for insanely long periods of time as i guess it had a rather large fuel tank.My point is this do i get mad and blame the tele guy for operating a slow low performance plane in a high speed very aerobatic airspace? Or do i get mad and say he was hogging up the airspace by flying so long at a time?Lastly does he get mad at me fot hitting his aircraft as i technically did turn into his flight path? Well let me say we were both stunned but helped each other and shook our heads and wondered how it happened.Well the only thing good about it all was i have a great video of the crash.Later gentlemen.

andernamen

My Feedback: (3)

Okay, this has been beat to death...but what the heck. I have a Top Flite P-40 and a Kaos ARF. You can't even compare the two planes. P-40 guy definitely got the raw end of the deal. But I have flown my Kaos around away from the runway and annoyed quite a few other fliers, not intentionally. It is just a fast plane. There is no way to know exactly where everyone else is at any given time without risking losing your plane. You were definitely not at fault...just bad luck. Whenever you fly, you run the risk of losing it all...I've seen turbine planes go down at a total loss. Every crash is avoidable....but do we really need the kind of draconian rules that would have to be followed to do this. First year of flying only on buddy box with instructor, complete airframe, engine and radio examination before every flight, battery certifications....blah blah blah. This hobby is supposed to be fun!! Every flier knows the risks. Buy a new plane and go out to the same field and scr@w those other guys!!

wingnutagencies

hey guys

hello from Durban, South Africa!

very interesting situation (mid-airs.... who is to blame?)

i have flows on a few site around the country and mid-airs seem to just happen. i also fly combat on the slopes where we use EPP gliders and actually try hit each other. IT IS NOT AS EASY AS IT SEEMS EVEN AT A 80ft RANGE.

i myself have had one mid air and felt sick no matter whose fault. a downed aircraft is a loss no matter what.

we have guys who like large scale aerobatics and pattern and they generally stay far from the runway and the others go mad over the runway.
as a matter of respect to each other we try not have more than 3 planes in the air at a time and if a jet or specialised plane (a.k.a. $$$$$) takes off we land ASAP.

guys - its a risk no matter what and you can debate who was up first or who was not a full memeber and who changed course all day long......... *@#$@#*^ happens.

the good thing is we must learn from mistakes and need to be more cautious in protecting our toys and communicate more.

ITS NICE TO SEE THAT SOMEONE WAS FEELING SO BAD THAT THEY PUT THEIR NAME ON THE FORUM AND STARTED ASKING THE QUESTION.

good luck all!!

wylieruneyjr

Well Enough has been said about proper pattern flying and who,s at fault. End result both planes did suffer damage. No one is at fault. But I find that most people seem to side with the guy who kit built his plane vs, a ARF. Or the more expensive of two planes , or who,s been in the air first. The better pilot . Member vs, non member ect... It,s a shame cause no matter whats said or done , both pilots suffered a lose. You did the best thing possible by taking time to go down there with the other fliers and not getting upset throwing your radio down kicking dirt and showing your as sss . I have witness all the above. The other pilot was as nice as to be expected, and no more. Yes some of his freinds feel you caused the crash, but not so. The fact that there was not any heated exchange of words, and finger pointing, shows that the whole situation was handle by two gentleman. The fact that you have a concience about this occurance shows that you are a careing up standing person who has had a humbling experance. Just means you are normal. Man I love to fly my Kaos, one of the best altime airframes ever. Andy

fozjared

i had my first mid air 2 weeks ago with the club president, i was flying my homemade electric sailplane and he was flying some zippy little freakish looking plane made from meat tray foam just an electric plane with elev-ons (sp?) cheap little thing that he has a blast with! it is real fast and mine is extremely slow so he was just running circles around me out there and his prop cut my horizontal stabilizer off, the glider somehow went inverted and floated down under throttle and didn't hurt it any further! we both just died laughing along with everyone else, he brought his in and landed it but i had to do a few repairs to mine but i could tell he genuinely felt bad, i am a poor college student and he is a fairly well off elderly gentleman so i could tell he felt bad about it so i did my best to repair it quickly and get it back up so he could see that it was no big deal.. and i did, and he seemed to feel a little better, but he still kept apologizing and trying to help.. anyway, this crash was mostly his fault imho bc he was trying to see how many loops he could do around me and i was just floating around, but that is the risk i took, i knew what he was doing and i just kept flying and laughing when he got close so i prodded him along so i cannot place the blame with him therefore i had no hard feelings and we laughed it off.. moral of the story, if you dont like how someone is flying while your plane is in the air, just land! he is a seasoned combat pilot and i have never seen him hit anyone even when they were zipping around one another during combat so sometimes it just happens even when it is someone you know flies well.. most times if someone has a more expensive plane than me (most of the time, haha) i just land and get out of the way!

in your case, no one at fault, it just happens!

Ed_Moorman

My Feedback: (1)

In my opinion, mid airs are no fault. I don't think anyone goes out to purposely hit someone. Trying to assign blame is idiotic.

In all my years of flying, I have probably had a dozen mid airs. Most of the time there were only 2 of us in the air. Some were where we were chasing each other around the sky. I seem to relax and get more careless when there is only one other plane up. When there are 3 or 4 planes up, I get real careful.

If someone is doing a lot of vertical acro, I tend to steer clear of where he is flying. I would hope he does the same for me. It's only common sense, don't fly through another plane's maneuvers. Of course I have seen scale fliers who think they own the sky when they put their plane up.

NO FAULT. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

vegas mossie

myself, and two friends, used to chase each other around on purpose. at those speeds and distances, it is almost impossible to get close to another plane. two planes occupying the same space at the same time is a freak act of nature. try it on a slow day with your trainers, you'll see what i mean. mid-airs happen, its part of the sport. people should accept this or not fly. like my instructor used to say, "if you can't afford to crash it, don't fly it" (in three years of flying, my friends and i never had a mid-air)

Spoiler

A few years back a friend and I did the chase thing - Uproar v Magic Extra. I managed to slice a portion of his stab with my prop at quite high range. No serious harm done as both landed safely a while later, so its not as hard as you think.

I analysed my last mid air a bit. I joined another pilots pattern without announcing myself as I was joining the preferred patternI was nowhere near him, but he likes to fly fast with minimal throttle control and he suddenly rolled and pulled a split S straight into me as I flew by in the same direction he had been going but far below him.. Really bad luck. He was fond of his plane which was a kit built 4 star 40 but cost nowhere near as much as my 40 size Cap with a scale coulour scheme with custom painted cowl, but it usually works that way....

PA BEN

Wow, a mid air. Lets see, two planes in the air. Both are screwing around in the air. A nice P-40 goes up. He takes the chance. When I fly I watch my plane, if I take my eye off my plane, I might crash my plane. It was a mid air for crying out loud. It happens.

Silver Flyer

My Feedback: (4)

A friend of mine that has crashed many large and small airplanes and probably has had a few midairs once said after one of his many crashes "ITS JUST A TOY AIRPLANE" What a great attitude. I have had three midairs in 30+ years, two with the same friend and one with another friend, all while we were the only ones flying! Nobody to blame.

PA BEN

Unless the other guy tried to take out the other plane, it's no fault. If a guy cries about an accident and blames the other guy, he's just a cry baby and should find a life. If you don't want a mid air, don't fly with other planes in the air.

dashunde

No-Fault.

After reading all of this, I'm thankful for the many "non-AMA" flying spots I have around here.
Huge, wide open adjoined ball diamonds for the electrics.
Deserted road and fields for the glows.

Rather be alone (or just with a buddy or two) than to be blamed for something that is not really blameable.

rc doc

I just had my first midair in 40 years of flying. It was indoors in a golf dome! I was flying my Parkzone Cessna , and the other pilot a 3D foamy. His landing gear touched my wing and I went upside down: the centurion doesn't fly upside down. I retrieHe ved it ,and went back to flying. No damage but a good laugh.
I have been shot down flying in a contest with the stick on my transmitter. Total loss of my electric.
I shot down another pilot; but I had the freq. stick.He took off without checking. He and I are still good friends.
Flying indoor combat with P-Sticks it is very hard to hit another plane: but we managed to
Our policy is to treat these things as accidents.
Hohn Smith

Hepdog

Most mid airs ARE avoidable - it's not a question of "fault" - it's a question of prudence.

If 1 or 2 guys are up doing 3D - that is a bad time to zoom and boom a warbird around the pattern - wait your turn.

If 1 or 2 guys are up flying warbirds - doing zoom and booms - that is a bad time to do 3D in the middle of the box - wait your turn.

If a bunch of gas guys are tearing up the sky with a mish mash of sport planes - that is a bad time to launch your super slow flying electric foamie or super scaled warbird - wait your turn.

As an Air Traffic Controller for many years (we keep em apart on purpose) it's not the number of airplanes that causes problems - it's dissimilar performance and flight patterns.

If everyone is doing the same basic type of thing (circuits, 3D, etc) - the odds go way down that something bad will happen. Throw in one airplane that want's to be different - well - now the odds that 2 planes will try to occupy the same airspace at the same time go way up.

Personally, I have fueled up, run up and pre-flighted many airplanes only to shut them down and wait my turn - the guys up flying were doing something were I wouldn't fit in. I've also had others come up to fly that wanted to do something different - I land asap. I do have planes where I really don't mind if someone gets in the way - and they never seem to get hit. I have a warbird that I only fly if everyone around understands that all it does is zoom and boom - leave me room! - never had an issue.

Prudence - sometimes it's not a good idea to go up - sometimes we just need to wait for the right moment - or risk the consequences. We all need to understand that there are consequences if we do somthing that really wasn't prudent.

My 2C

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

Reason. logic. manners and common sense? Never happen.

Mike Emilio

I'd have to agree with JPM as well.
Looking for blame seems of no value, unless of course any of the club rules were deliberately broken.
Yes, this can be a rather costly error, and sadly a very nice bird is gone, but I believe it still remains the pilots risk everytime he puts his craft in the air. Yes, a spotted may have been helpfull indeed, but difficult to impose across the board.

At a social/friendly perspective, why not consider what each can do for the other to get something going again. Like trading some stuff, or bartering to get some new construction going for the other.

eric97217

Starboard tack has right away over port tack, down wind has to give way to upwind and cruise ships, get out of their way, oh wait wrong sport.... I think a little common sense goes along ways.. I am fairly new to flying and I know to stay out of the way or in the pits when someone is flying something big and spendy. And the same should be said for anyone doing 3d or flying something big, spendy or fast, if guys are up flying their trainers or Cubs and doing patterns or touch and goes, then wait until they are down before you go zooming along inverted 5 feet off the deck. There is no rule at our club that i can tell but that seems to be how we fly. And if you bump planes accidently, it happens, dont get mad, or cry, like in sailing when you blow a sail or break a halyard, it is paying a little to Zues for all the good sails/ flights.

jship

My Feedback: (4)

If You don't want, or can not stand to lose a plane You need to keep it on the ground. On the other hand, has anyone ever heard of a spotter?

just a thought
john

ceecrb1

I vote TECHNICALLY avoidable, but no fault..

Koas man COULD've had a spotter (but who HONESTLY normally does this for every flight), as could p40 pilot.
P40 pilot COULD've waited till kaos pilot was on finals before starting the engine up. But didnt.

Its just a case of, things come out differently with hind sight.

I do however feel for you being the "loner".

I flew rc gliders for many years in scotland (where I'm from) but last year moved to spain.
Where I am is pretty flat with minimal wind, so slope soaring is a no no.

I joined the local club and bought me a glow trainer.
I am MORE than capable of flying sport planes as I owned 60" racers and F3F gliders, but for safety sakes I thought, trainer and I can really nail this new Idea of "landing" and "taking off" on a runway.
I spent the last 2 months in the club being treated like the "new kid" sitting alone and only being alowed to turn my radio on when an instructor was present.

WELL on sat am I was given permission to fly solo for the fist time. SO i did, carried on doing circuits and landed.
Got a (very surprising) applause from all present.
So i fueled up, took off and let them know I wasnt lying that I knew how to fly and gave them 15 mins of acrobatics.

Landed and was instanly offered to buy a patch of the club land for 2000 euros and life membership.

I gues it just took time in my case but I DO know what its like to be looked at and judged.
MY first trainer was destroyed due to a club member turning on their radio with the same fequency as me, while I was flying.
I was generally told off cause "how dare I be in HIS frequency in HIS club".......
not fun....
so i got 2.4ghz.

On the other side, the crash I had and the aftermath argument with this other pilot did mean it "broke the ice" and others started talking to me more.. so maybe it wont be so bad..
who knows in 2 months you might LIKE being the guy who cut the p40 in half, if genuinely seen as a joke, its just a bit of fun anyway..
plus he has now got a very good reason to go back to the wife with his new plane becuse the old one got broked.

glydrjocky

Crack a Beer! Cus if you were in real airplanes you'd be going to eachothers funerals..........

Now that's a reality check if there ever was one!

SoCalSal

My Feedback: (16)

He was a "member" for that day if he paid the fee to fly as a "non-Member" I'm sure if there had been some type of incident that caused the fields insurance company to get involved they would determin that he was a "Member" for that one day as he paid the fee so he should be covered by the same insurance as a "full time member" otherwise the operater of the field would be hurting real bad if the poo-poo hit the rotating devise.

logair

I just read this thread and in my humble opinion no one was at FAULT. And to say you are at fault for pulling vertical is nonsence. We have several planes in the air at our field most of the time, and yes we have had a couple midairs. but unless someone is actually trying to hit another plane or violating field rules, it should be considered no fault. You cannot always watch other planes while safely flying yours. how many planes fly without doing a pullup. We have to accept the fact that a midair is possible even with the best of intentions. One thing we do at our field when a new fellow shows up is to introduce ourselfs and make him feel at home. we allow him or her to fly at our field a couple time before joining our club.We feel we have strenght in numbers and do not want to alienate anyone. So to sum up if you fly RC you have to expect midairs to happen on occasion, or find a new sport. Logair