I agree with most of what Chad posted, except of course his comments regarding gearboxes. With all due respect, from what I have seen, the outrunners simply do not have the same level of performance as the Hackers. And from what I saw posted regarding outrunner performance at the World's, they are just barely adequate. I for one, like models that have excellent vertical power and speed. I have yet to see that from an outrunner. They may be coming, but they are not here yet. When they are, I will be happy to switch. I am just not yet convinced that the physics of outrunners will ever let them reach the power to weight of a good geared inrunner.

The gearbox is just not that big of a deal to maintain. Hacker USA will do it for free if you want to send it to them. But if you are at all mechanically inclined they are simple to do yourself. And the new Hacker F3A motor will be even better.

As far as AAM's concerns, IMHO he is exagerating some things for his desired effect. But I'll agree, there is no way to rationalize switching to electric by comparing cost. Right now electric costs more, period. But for me, the advantages outweigh the increased cost. Others may look at it differently. But let's face it, competition pattern flying at a high level has never been cheap.

And I agree with rm. With his outlook, AAM should stick with glow. At least until he's convinced the numbers are there.

And here are some numbers. In the last two years I have flown 1,614 flights with electric models. 983 have been with large, high power electric. The rest have been with foamies or small models. I have never had a charging fire. I have crashed two of the larger models, both from wing failure. With the first, there was no damage to the packs, in fact I'm still using them. In the second, the two 5S4P 8000 mah packs did catch on fire. I pulled everything valuable away from them and let 'em burn. None of my foamie hits have ever caused even a damaged battery. I consider this a very good safety record. But as has been mentioned, I am diligent and careful with any model I am flying.

Electric pattern models will not be for everybody, plain and simple. Just like turbine jets aren't for everybody, or Giant Scale racers, or 40% IMAC models. But I do enjoy them and I do think so will those who make the investment.

Not sure where you read this, but I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who has seen my current 30-10 motor setup fly and refer to its performance as barely adequate!

Powerful as the Hacker, no.....but I can go up as high as is needed and exit manuvers at the same speed I went in regardless of the wind.....thats all thats required. I would not have used it in the Worlds if I felt it was not doing the job.

Plus its much quieter, much simpler, draws 60A and requires 0 work on the part of the user. I like electric because I dont have to spend time working on equipment.....the moment I need to pull the Hacker apart to re-grease it I am wasting my time and may as well run glow again. Shipping it back to Hacker is out of the question....1 month round trip from here to there....I would need 4 motors just to keep flying.

I think you will see the outrunners getting more popular over the next year. They are here now and only getting better.

I think it was one of your team mates that posted that. 25's didn't have enough and the 30 just enough. Can't remember where it was posted though. Congrats on your finish at the worlds!

HI All,

Does anyone know if there is an intention to raise the 42 Volt limit?

Thanks,
Jim W.

Jim, the F3A subcommitte will be considering raising the voltage limit during the fall meeting (November, IIRC). If you want it to increase, make sure you contact your F3A subcommittee member (Chip, IIRC). I was at the meeting in France, and no one really wanted to up it, so it is going to take some convincing to make it happen.

I have to agree with Tony. I finally got to see a plettenburg in a impact over the weekend at the Hollister contest and it didn't have nearly the power over the top that Tony's Hackers have. Not even close. Sure, it'll get you there, but not like the Hacker. Not knocking the plettenburg though. That think sure is quiet!!!!
We missed you guys at the contest Tony. Hope you go to Sac... Also hoping that when you get your Abbra done and have some flights on it you will post your thoughts on it vs. your Partner's. It may be my in for the electric scene. I just want to be sure before I put the money into it.

Krishlan

Chad,

It was posted by one of your teammates regarding the Canadian teams electric models performance at the World's.

Quite simply, the numbers of the outrunners do not add up. Current draw and total watts produced along with motor efficiencies are not on par with the inrunners. They won't turn the same prop without drawing huge current numbers, and they weigh significantly more. I'm sorry if you think a one hour job every 50 flights is too much work, but I find that every 50 I should be cleaning and checking things out anyway, so I don't find it a problem. I do have spare motors and controllers so often I just exchange them and do the greasing when I can. And my Hacker system requires far less maintenance then any glow system I have ever used.

I don't expect anything I say will change your mind, but I felt I needed to voice my opinion based on what I saw at the Nats and what I know from my experience.

If and when I see an outrunner perform on a par with my Hacker at the same weight and reliability, I'll switch immediately. Until then I am unwilling to give up any performance.

Hi Krishlan,

I should have gone to Hollister but I just wasn't feeling like traveling that weekend. I'm sure I missed a good time. I am planning on Sacramento, so I hope to see you there. I have done a little bit of work on the Abbra and when I get it flying I'll post my feelings. It sure looks like a very nice model for the money.

Tony....can you recommend a gear lubricant for us Hacker users who would like to relubricate the gear box ourselves? The subject of sound/noise from electrics is interesting. While some seem to prefer virtually no sound at all, I would not want my C50 Hacker motors to be any quieter than they are. As it is, I can barely hear them in the air; however, there is a slight noise most of which probably comes from the gearbox. For me, that's important feedback regarding the power level I'm using and where the throttle stick is currently set. I wouldn't want it any quieter and wouldn't want to lose that audible feedback.

Mike Moritko

What Plett, what prop, what packs? There are a few different setups.

Thanks! Interesting comment, considering that neither of the guys on the team flew my plane with this setup. I was the only team member to fly both the 25-13 motor and the 30-10 motor, there is a major difference in power between the two. Also both Adam and Dez are getting 30-10's so if they dont feel its not powerful enough I cant understand why they would be going that route!

Tony, what props are you running and what RPM are you getting?

As for weight, my Enigma's weighed in at 4670 grams (10.3 lbs) with TP 5300 packs. What I ran at Muncie was not what I used in France I am sure by Muncie next year there will be an even more powerful Plett out (in fact I know there will be). The Plett Xtra 30 and the Hacker C50XL weigh exactly the same based on posted figures.

As for watts, who cares how many watts you get. Prop size and prop RPM dictate power, currently I run the 21x13W APC E prop and spin just under 6000 rpm, this has a huge amount of power for a plane barely more than 10 lbs. This motor is capable of spinning the 22x12 but I never ran it as I prefer to run as small a diameter as possible.

Run what you want, but dont say the Plett's are barely adequate because that is simply not true.

What Plett, what prop, what packs? There are a few different setups.

I'll find out. I have sent the email.

Kris

Thanks! Interesting comment, considering that neither of the guys on the team flew my plane with this setup. I was the only team member to fly both the 25-13 motor and the 30-10 motor, there is a major difference in power between the two. Also both Adam and Dez are getting 30-10's so if they dont feel its not powerful enough I cant understand why they would be going that route!

How about because of discounted price or outright sponsorship! And you don't need to fly an airplane to make a judgement on it's power or performance. And before anyone asks, I paid for every one of the Hacker motors and controllers in my pattern models. I have received support from Hacker USA, but not freebies.

Tony, what props are you running and what RPM are you getting?

APC 22-12E at 6,200 rpm. I have tried smaller diameter props and I do not like either the power or the downline braking. They do pull much less current. The Partner I flew in Muncie weighs 10.44 with 5300's, the older one is 10.94.

As for watts, who cares how many watts you get. Prop size and prop RPM dictate power,

Watts are an indicator of the power being produced by the motor. More watts = more horsepower. We typically measure the power being input. Motor efficiency will dictate power output. Of course, prop selection will make a difference in how that horsepower is converted into aircraft performance. The pilot will make a subjective determination on what they like. And if the two motors do weigh the same, then the power to weight advantage goes to the Hacker, as even you have said that the 30-10 did not have equal power to the Hacker.

Run what you want, but dont say the Plett's are barely adequate because that is simply not true.

Thank you, I will. I'm sure you will do the same. As for performance. that's largely a matter of subjective opinion. The performance I saw at the Nats from the outrunners was in fact inadequate for me. Others may have found it excellent. Am I right, or are they? That's one of the beauties of a subjective competition. It gives us a lot to talk about!

And BTW, congratulations on the World Champs. I wish I could have been there again.

Well I know they are not getting them free Barely discounted, but I am sure we could get discounted Hackers if we wanted as well

Until you fly the plane you really dont know how much power someone has, they could be running reduced power the entire flight and have a fair bit of reserve....point is I dont think Adam or Dez is in any position to publicly post that the setup I used was barely adequate for power.

Thats more RPM than I have been told, I have heard 5800 a fair bit, but the Prolites hold some *****in' voltage I am would bet Gen 2's didnt/dont put out that power?

Downline breaking, you really need to try an ESC with a proportional break. Hackers got one now and Schulze has the software available as well. I got one going after the Worlds and I wish I had it before.

Yes watts is power, but as you pointed out efficiency will drive that number all over the map. Also props can have a huge effect, I have noticed that the W APC props spin more RPM and draw less current than the standards, in some cases close to 10 amps less and 500 rpm more. The W prop will output less watts, but which will have more true power? I dont place a bunch of value in watts, prop size, RPM and draw are what I like to see. As long as I can spin the same prop at the same RPM then we have the same power....if mine outputs higher current then all it means is I am throwing more to heat. As long as I can deal with that extra heat there should be no difference in flight.

Geared motors will always win in power output, I have never disputed that. You can always change the gear ratio to get a more optimum setup, but that comes at the price of a) noise, b) a potential failure point....small gears are not easy to design, especially for high load and RPM in a tight light package.

The 25-13 that I used at the Nats was barely enough for what I wanted, it worked and would have worked well on a really light model. The 30-10 that I am using now was a huge improvement in power, the next evolution of these motors will be even better.

Thanks, its a lot of fun as I am sure you know Are you trying for the US team this year? Rumor has it that it will not be at Muncie and somewhere in the southwestern US?

How's the proportional break work? Doesn't allow the prop to free wheel and maintains a constant rpm I assume?

Aside of the geared/outrunner power, the problem I have with the outrunners is what do you do if you should have a problem. From what I can tell they're all sold through retailers that don't have the facilities to handle repair work. Not all problems have to do with the gear boxes.

Did you see any of the cyclons in France, observations?

Hi rm

From what I understand its basically the same software they use for RC electric cars. So at a point on the throttle stick the motor will start to resist being turned (I dont understand how this actually works) the more you move the stick back the more breaking force you get. It makes a huge difference in the air and has the potential to give more breaking than needed on downlines, its very obvious once you see it in action Again its a new way of flying and will take a bit of getting used to as now the idle of the stick actually does something! I wont say it maintains a constant RPM, but it signficantly reduces the windmilling that you get with the electrics. The energy removed during the breaking process is fed back into the packs, about 50 mA a flight I understand

I dont know about repairing the outrunners in North America. Plett will repair them but they are in Germany. With that said I have not experienced a failure of any kind in ~400 flights. The biggest thing to watch for in the outrunners is temperature because they are so short they can be tough to cool.

Yes Cyclon was there in France, however none were being used in the competition so I was only able to physically look at the motor itself. The setup that JP from ZN is running with his is a 20x13 prop, about 6500 RPM and pulling 75A with TP 5300 packs. With those numbers my intial thoughts are that the motors are not as efficient as they claim.

Chad,

5,800 rpm was over a year ago with 0 advance and Gen 1 batteries. With +3 degrees advance and Pro-Lite packs 6,200 is the number.

A friend of mine had an AXI in an airplane that unfortunately crashed. There is no repair for AXI's in the states either. They would sell a new one for 1/2 off.

Mike,

I agree with you concerning noise. My Hacker set-up is as quiet as I would want. I need the feedback. And with electric's not being sound checked, noise is again not a factor. I will get back to you on the grease. Hacker is now using something different and I will find out what and where to get it.

Well, here is my friends setup with his Plettenburg.

Kinda explains why I thought it was down on power.
He's in advanced.

Taken from an email:

Impact
30-10 with the JETI 90
amp controller. The batteries are the pro lite 6000...
At the contest i was using a 20x13... Not really
enough power but i was limited to that by ground
clearance. With a 22x12 i have plenty of power and
speed.
I have only seen this pletty so I could be wrong. Can't wait to see it with the bigger prop.
I still think I will go with a hacker someday. I mean, people are crying about having to do maintenance on them.
How long did most of us fly YS? Talk about maintenance. Hackers are nothing. As for now, my os 140rx with a 15.5x12 4 blade acts alot like a electric and is maintenance free.
Maybe someday though. I think I'd have to lock my wife in the closet for a couple of years if I was to buy everything needed for the electrics. Well, either that or get divorced and that wouldn't be too good for me either.
So that being said, I take back what I said I have seen with the pletty as it was under propped. But I will say this, I don't see how much could compare to Tony's Partners. They have alot of power!!!! Or any of the other Hacker's I have seen. They do also.

Chris

Tony: I know there are several folks using the C50 motors who are trying to find out what grease to use so it would be great if you could obtain that information for all of us. I did contact Hacker USA and they indicated they didn't know what grease to use as theirs is provided by Hacker Germany in bulk containers.

Mike Moritko

Hi Mike,

I talked to Sean Plummer of Hacker USA today. The grease is only available in bulk quantities, but what he said they would do is pretty good. If you are a Hacker customer with a C50 geared motor, call Hacker USA and they will send you a quantity of the grease suitable for several lubrications for free.

The grease they used before this is called Superlube. He mentioned that it is available in smaller tubes from industrial supply houses. It is in a metallic silver tube. Sorry, I don't have an outlet for this grease. I think the best solution is to call Hacker USA and get the free stuff!

The next time I need a gearbox lube job I will take pics and post the process. It's pretty simple but does require some easy obtained tools like strap wrenches. And there are some things to watch in disassembly and re-assembly. It might be a couple of weeks before the motor in the Partner I'm flying needs the job, but I'll do it then.

Hope this helps!

Hi guys

The SuperLube gease tube has this face.

You can buy it at
http://www.pandanmodelboats.co.uk ( do a search by lube in thir search weab page)

I have listed (4) 5S3P 6000 for a friend thats 2 sets for pattern in the market place.
[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemID=141314[/link]

The best place to buy the 5s4p 5300's is http://parts.rctoys.com/rc-toys-hobb...ower%20Lipoly/
302.95 each free shipping.
Chris

Hi Tony,
Have you messed withvertical CG? Given the concentrated weight of the battery, I was wondering if you'd done any trim work with a belly-pan mointed battery versus what I saw in the pictuires with your first Partner. Maybe it's another thread ...
Thanks,
Dean